Dateline Afghanistan

[coyotejoe]

Here's a link to an article in the "Mountain  Gazette" #128. It's written by a "Sgt. Mike" who is in country at this time. He very nicely sums up our mistaken policies there and points up the futility of just doing what we've always done and expecting that somehow we'll get better results. This is somewhat tounge in cheek, I'm sure he realizes that it's pretty hard to "win the hearts and minds" of any people if even a small percentage of those people are shooting at you. That's why it's way past time to just cut our losses and get people out of there. We can check back in ten years or so, maybe then it will be time to "send in the boosters".
http://www.mountaingazette.com/?s=dateline+Afghanistan

[Pat/Rick]

I think if one would couple TM's post with the announcement of sharia law by Libya after the US has pledged millions of dollars to finance a new enemy, you'll see where he makes sense. I'm not opposed to killing a national enemy, but the continuance of crash and bash into an ethnic peoples home will cause nothing but resentment for the occupiers. Case in point Karzai just announced he will back Pakistan should the US effort be directed that way. Alot to think about with alot of possible directions.
 
TM,were thousands of armed troops encamped here, I'd fight as well. EVEN IF, they were our self styled allies. Alot to be said for the British history in Afghanistan, Reccomended reading for sure.

[NWBear]

When the Russians were in Afganistan we called it their Vietnam.  I guess those who can't learn the lessons of history ARE condemed to repeat them.  I am still curious why when 19 SAUDIS hijacked the planes on 9/11 we invaded Afganistan and Iraq? ?  When we look back on Afganistan it will be like Vietnam, AMERICAN lives lost and NOTHING different.  I always say if you want to know what life was like during the time of Christ, go to Afganistan and drive 10 miles out of the major city(ies) you will see how things were 2000 years ago, because that is how most of them live.  Once we leave it will return to the way it has been for 5000 years - tribal government and squabbles + growing opium poppies.  WE would do better to fly over the poppy fields and drop Agent Orange - but stay out of ground activity.  Just my opinion.

[SHOOTALL]

I don't think any country has conquered Afghanistan and held it. Why would they want to ?

[gypsyman]

To much politics in war since WW11. We've really never set out to win a war since then. Just like business here in this country. Let the business run without govt. interference, and a whole lot more could be accomplished!!gypsyman

[mdwest]

Imagine thousands of heavily armed foreign troops camped in our country, supported by trillions of dollars and lots of high tech weaponry, and with an ethnocentric attitude. And then imagine that these troops engage in night raids and shakedowns of all manner of citizenry and blame you for some terrorist act you never heard of... net result being tens of thousands killed and property destroyed.
 
I got a feeling it will be several generations for this to be forgotten. Meanwhile Chinese took an Andrew Carnegie course > "How to make friends and influence people..."
 
..TM7

Funny.. of all the Afghans I know (none of them are Taliban.. so maybe my viewpoint is skewed  ).. none of them share your viewpoint at all.. (I personally know HUNDREDS of Afghans.. have had a couple of thousand of them on my payroll at one time or another.. and still maintain regular contact with a handful)
 
They generally dont like the chinese.. and the chinese are not doing well there overall in terms of garnering business, resources or political clout.. they have built a couple of roads (terrible quality.. already falling apart).. and tried to put a little money into the local economy to influence things.. but have largely been unsuccessful.. the Turks, Pakistanis, and Indians frankly are blowing the chinease away in almost all markets/categories.. and all three of those countries fall far behind the US in terms of who is gaining economic and political ground (not that we are gaining alot)..
 
They generally want us there (exceptions would be the taliban, and several senior members of their government.. but the average guy on the street understands what us "going" means.. and would prefer the problems we bring.. when given the option of the problems they know will come about the minute we leave)..
 
most of them have no desire to see the taliban return.. and while they will openly say we have made numerous mistakes and missteps in the way we have handled things.. that they have no desire to see the US pull out of their country right now..
 
and this is from a people that still havent forgotten (or forgiven) the british for the way they behaved in the 1830's... as a general rule.. the avergage afghan loathes a brit.. many of them will tell you they would rather have the russians back than have the brits on their soil.. they have all kinds of conspiracy theories about how the brits planned 9/11 so they would have an excuse for invading, etc.. they will tell you that all the other nations that came in in 2001 asked permission of the northern alliance.. but the brits just landed and therefore are "imperalist invaders", etc..
 
they have long memories.. are unforgiving.. and as an overall rule distrustful of everyone (to include asians that have taken carnegie courses)..
 
but if you poll 1000 afghans in the street and ask them if their life is better today.. or worse than it was 10 years ago.. the vast majority will say better..
 
if you ask them what the #1 problem in their country is.. the majority will say their own corrupt government.. they will not say it is the US troops on the ground..
 
 
 
 
 
 

[mdwest]

I don't think any country has conquered Afghanistan and held it. Why would they want to ?

Alexander the Great did for a short while before his death.. but he was the last one to really conquer it.. the greeks kept it under control for about another 50 years after Alexander passed... he wanted it because it was a gateway into Pakistan and Inida, and was on the backside of Persia (he wanted the wealth out of what is now modern day Iran and needed to keep the surrounding areas in control)..
 
the brits occupied for a while.. but the fighting never really ended.. the russians tried.. we all know how that ended.. the pakistanis and various tribes in pakistan have been in and out of different areas/regions for centuries.. but have never been able to hold onto anything.. etc..etc..
 
as a side note.. one of the coolest things I have had the chance to do in my life (being a history buff and a fan of the ancient greeks) was to walk on a couple of roads that Alexander built in Herat Province (western afghanistan.. about 30 miles from the Iranian border).. those roads are almost 2500 years old.. and are still in existence today..
 

[mdwest]

if youre not buying it..
 
get on a plane.. and go see for yourself..
 
no, I'm not kidding..
 
US citizens can obtain Afghan visas in Dubai in less than 24 hours.. the cost of a round trip ticket from Dubai to Kabul is about $500.. there are multiple commercial carriers with about a half dozen flights into Kabul 7 days a week..
 
there are numerous secure hotels in Kabul.. prices range between $75 a night to about 250 a night.. a personal friend of mine owns this one.. http://kabul.thebaronhotels.com/ .. I can arrange for him to pick you up from the airport and drop you off when you are ready to leave...
 
Ive been in and out of Afghanistan (all over the country) for years..
 
dont believe what you read in the newspaper.. dont believe what you see on MSNBC, CNN, or Fox.. dont believe what you read on an internet forum..
 
go see for yourself...
 
thats what I did..
 
if you really believe our presence in the country is regarded in any capacity in the same way the russian occupation was by the average afghan.. you are wrong.. simple as that..
 
if you really believe the chinese have more influence in the region than we do (or even close to the same amount of influence).. you are again, wrong.. simple as that..
 
if you believe the taliban shut down the opium trade while they were in power.. once again.. you would be wrong.. opium was never grown or traded in the cities.. which was the only place the taliban had any real measure of control..
 
if you believe thousands of US troops are "locking down" afghanistan.. you would once again.. be wrong..
 
if you believe that the average everyday afghan wants us to pull up stakes and leave post haste.. you would again, be wrong..
 
but again.. dont take my word for it.. for $2000 you can go see for yourself.. HUNDREDS of americans do it every month.. HUNDREDS of americans (and europeans) were doing every year, even before the taliban were kicked out of power..
 
google "Gandamack Lodge Kabul".. its a resturant/bar that is owned by a BRITISH NATIONAL that is married to an Afghan woman.. that has been open since the mid 1990's..
 
google "Fat Man Forest Kabul".. thats a butcher shop.. owned by an AMERICAN CITIZEN that has been open and operating in the WAK district of Kabul for over a decade..
 
I can give you probably two dozen other small business establishments, owned and operated by westerners, that are readily accepted by the Afghans (no one is fire bombing their businesses, no one is running them out of the country.. no one is asking them to leave..).. their owners come and go from the country all the time..
 
dont be a member of one of the ignorant masses that believes what they want to "just because"... or someone that trusts what you read in a book, saw on the news, or heard from a friend..
 
go see for yourself.. go talk to afghans.. go watch the US military and how they are operating in the area.. go look for chinese businesses.. then go look for US businesses.. to talk to someone at the US embassy.. go to AISA (The Afghan Investment Support Agency.. the organization responsible for licensing companies, regulating business, etc..)...then report back here what you find...(I did)..
 
if your opinions are based on nothing more than presumptions and/or what you saw on the news.. I dont know that they have all that much value.. as they are likely based on falsehoods that were spewed to support other agenda...
 
 
 
 
 

[mdwest]

Of course, the plans for occupying Afghanistan were made before 911.
 

the plans to invade almost every country on earth (to include our allies) were made long before 9/11.. and are updated every year..
 
this is a practice and function of the US Army War College (as well as other organizations with the military)..
 
it is how we move as quickly as we do when there is a "problem"... dozens upon dozens of scenarios are played out.. and senior military leaders develop plans, work out logistics issues, consider everything from the weather to the political climate (and everything else in between).. and file war plans...
 
when the fecal matter hits the oscilating object somewhere in the world that we have never heard of before.. the standard procedure is to go pull all the war plans on file for that country and select the one that most closely resembles the situation at hand... and use it as a template and/or starting point for developing the actual game plan.. that way we are ahead of the game.. rather than playing catch up..
 
there are plans on file at the pentagon for invading Mexico.. there are plans on file at the pentagon for invading Indonesia.. there are plans on file at the pentagon for invading the bahamas.. and everyone else.. there are plans for "invading" germany, france, and the UK (what if one of our enemies overran one of those countries and we found ourselves wanting to go liberate them?.. we would want to know where all the key airports are, where the rail heads are, what kind of aircraft/trains they could support, where are the choke points in the country.. who the likely enemy would be that we would face.. what are their capabilities... what are their motivations... what would their defensive strategies be.. etc..)..
 
planning a war once you are in the middle of it.. is a bad plan....
 
yes.. no doubt about it.. we had plans on file for invading afghanistan LONG before 9/11..
 

[coyotejoe]

I guess some people just never will grasp the fact that you don't make friends by blowing stuff up and killing people. Kill one person, good guy or bad, on purpose or by accident, and you've just made an enemy of everyone who ever heard of that guy. That's why you simply can not kill them all, trying to do so just puts us in an ever widening circle of enemies.
What's wrong with just staying at home and minding our own business? Don't we have enough trouble here?

[BBF]

 
.......................... to take the same Carnegie course next time they want to plow into some buildings with a couple airplanes.......................

I suppose the would have used Cruise Missiles if they had them.

[SHOOTALL]

Some Americans need to realize not every one wants to be like us .

[mdwest]

I'd say most of the people of the world dont want to be "like us"...
 
that said.. what I have noticed (I have spent over 20 years traveling the globe and have worked in over 70 countires.. I believe I have a first hand perspective).. is that the vast majority of the people of the world do in fact want everything material that we have..
 
the issue is they want cheeseburgers, ipods, playboy, 70" televisions, corvettes, FUBU clothes, rap music, and a 3000 square foot house on a quarter acre lot in the suburbs..
 
but they dont want capitalism, democracy, a republic, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, etc...
 
sadly.. its awful hard to have one in any capacity (the material items), without the other...
 
if you want everything given to you (whether by your own government, the EU, the US, the UN, or NATO), you want other people to make all the decisions about what you hear, where you work, how much you can earn, what you read, etc.. if you want to hold everyone else responsible for your shortcomings rather than accepting them as your own and then doing something about it.. then you will always be envious of cheeseburgers, ipods, and rap music.. and rarely (if ever) obtain any of it on your own..
 
China is an excellent example.. once they began to make the transition to a free market economy and allow capitalism a chance.. their economy boomed.. granted it is being proped up by all kinds of shady acts in currency manipulation.. but there is no denying that their economy is growing (and has been growing) at a rate of 8-10% a year for the last several years.. while ours is growing at a rate of about 1 1/2% at best (many economists will tell you the number is a lot lower than that.. they have a huge population, that suddenly has discretionary income (and hasnt for 40+ years), and they are SPENDING it...
 
wanna know what they are spending it on?
 
Western clothes, ipods, european cars, modern buildings that are being designed by western architects (there are currently more heavy lift cranes inside the city limits of Beijing than there are in the entire rest of the world combined)..
 
they dont want our "culture"..
 
but they want our "stuff"...
 
if the average afghan family had an extra $1000 a month in their pockets... anybody want to guess what they would be doing with it?
 
they wouldnt be buying extra prayer rugs or RPG-7's...
 
they would be snatching up CD players, Lil Wayne CD's, buying Japanese cars (they love toyotas), and taking their kids to KFC for a bucket of chicken on sundays..
 
The issue is you arent going to get the governments and religious leaders of oppressed nations to empower the people to make the kinds of decisions they need to to amass wealth (to be able to obtain goods).. and the people (like so many people of the world) arent willing to (for religious reasons, lazy reasons, or just and acceptance of "this is how it has always been") do what it takes to change things (most likely die.. in large numbers..).. its only when the government sees benefit (like they finally did in China) or the people finally get frustrated to the point that they are willing to die themselves (rather than expect someone else to come in and save them) like they have been doing in Syria lately.. that there is any real chance of change (whether that change is for better.. or worse.. really depends on who the new leadership is..)..
 
that doesnt mean they dont want our "stuff"...
 
in 2001 you would have never seen an Afghan woman in anything other than a burka (for political and religious reasons)..
 
these days, you still see a lot of women in burkas (mostly the older women.. its been part of their lives since they were 12 years old.. to them "its just the way it has always been..").. but you also see A LOT of women in western blue-jeans, western tops, etc.. wearing paris hilton sunglasses, wearing revlon makeup, etc..
 
they have a choice.. they could go to other, less restrictive, but still traditional persian manners of dress..
 
but what did they go to?
 
western "stuff"...
 
they dont want to be like us (again, they dont want Christianity, dont want capitalism, dont want a republic, etc..)...
 
but the vast majority of the world wants to look like us, act like us, have the same things as us, etc.. they are envious.. often jelous.. and as a result.. angry that there are people that "have" when they are among the "have nots"...
 
 
 

[mdwest]

Midwest...I see you're a political officer of sorts.

No.. not a political officer at all.. I am a former executive of a company that did (does) about $100M a year in business in Afghanistan (among many other places).. and a former director level employee of an international central banking institution (no, I was not a banker.. I was a security director).. and a current executive of a small, boutique firm, that provides services to both the public and the private sector..
 
I have worked closely with both US government and foreign government officials over the years.. but have spent most of my time in an "operations" oriented position that required me to manage people, processes, and customer relationships..
 

Is Obama's Afgani policy working after all.....apparently you're saying by our measures it is? Frankily, I've been to Afghanistan on a couple of occasions during more peaceful times.

No where did I say Obama's Afghan policy is working.. or not.. most of the Obama policy is a mere continuation of the Bush policy.. very little has changed in that theater..
 
If you were in Afghanistan during more peaceful times.. that would have been either during Taliban rule.. or prior to the 1970's.. either way.. if you are basing your opinions and views on what you saw then, and have nothing recent to compare to.. your views are outdated and incorrect..
 

I do not intend to visit during some kind of shooting and psychological war going on....

your choice.. but again, if you are basing your views on what you read and what you view on TV.. you are likely incorrect in your assessment of things.. unless you are talking to the people, seeing things with your own eyes, etc.. you are merely getting the pieces of the story that someone else (with their own agenda in place) wants you to see..
 

And excuse me, are we up to 4000 troops lost in Afghanistan and 1 trillion dollars down the memory hole; and how many Afghanis killed--1 in 4 families have had a death or injury at the hands of NATO--is that true??...That does not seem too friendly.

Who said anything about being friendly? Who says we always need to be friendly to accomplish our objectives?(especially to a group of people that could care less if we are friendly or not.. ie Taliban, Al Q, Pakistanis, etc..)
 
What was said is that the Afghan people (common people) as a general rule do not want to see us go.. while the situation isnt perfect for them.. the alternative sucks far more... and they know it..
 

Anyway, some westerners have always lived in Mid East and Asian countries to escape the ho-hum of western materialistic existence...I'm sure the average young Afghani can be lured with corvettes, playboy, cheesburgers, ipod and all the myriad of distractions (Jinni) which pass for Western culture like the average young American. And that is one way to jack deer--shine a bright light in their eyes!!

agreed..
 
its not the way the government is trying (or wanting) to do it.. but whether we like it or not, ipods are influincing young people in the area far more than military operations and political programs.. the military and the state department have simply provided the avenue for these things to enter the culture (inadvertantly in most cases)..
 

Certainly, there is no mature thinking Afghani that wants foreign occuppying armies in their country and corrupting their culture just like any decent American would reject that proposition,,,

you are wrong here.. as stated above... they want "stuff".. and they want "parts" of US and European culture.. they just dont want all of it..
 
 

There has been too many mistaken deaths and various other atrocities to be foregotten by Afghani elders.

The Afghan elders still havent forgotten the British in the 1830's... other than alot of loud grumbling about their presence in the country.. wanna know how much that has really mattered?
 
Almost none..
 
The brits have the second highest military presence of any outside country in Afghanistan..
 
The Afghans hate the brits (they are seen as colonialists).. they hate the Russians (they are seen as occupyers/attempted colonialists)..
 
as a general rule.. they dont hate us.. we are seen as the country that liberated them from the oppressive regime that the Russians allowed to take over when they bailed out of the country in an almost overnight fashion..
 

And let's not forget it was the 2 Bush admins that were courting favor with the Talibani for energy and pipeline rights thru the country.  That the Chinese were courting favor in Pakistan over a long 60 year history is another reason for invading Afghanistan as well as encircling Iran and to displace ensuing Chinese influence in the region...Ne Pearl Harbour was crucial on the Giant Chees Board!. Sure the USA has invasion attack plans for every region and state on the planet no doubt--that's what they do---difference is that's what they did in Afghanistan based on very flimsy evidence and uninvestigated events.  The Americans are taking up where the Soviets left off....

 
a mixture of several different conspiracy theories and unrelated babble.. not much to respond to when you present opinions and unsubstantiated beliefs rather than fact based information..
 

BTW, If you're a history buff on the region you might want to look into the Bactrian Era of Afghanistan,,,quite interesting. Hopefully, they know where all the gold is at this point...

I havent read much on this.. but its of interest.. I might do a little google-fu and try to find some credible resources.. then bounce the information off a couple of the educated Afghans that I keep in touch with.. all kidding aside, thanks for the tip (always looking for more information, knowledge, etc..)

 

[mdwest]

Now we are starting to agree on a couple of things...
 

Ok, so you were banking auxillary staff, and corporate sponsored...was this contracts of/by/for US governmnet..?

some.. but not all.. contracts have been for everyone from the US DOD and DOS, the British Govt, and the Canadian Govt.. to a coffee company, a construction company (that was building for the private sector.. not the govt), a company in the hospitality industry, and others..  services in sectors that all organizations (govt and private sector) need..
 

Well, you were painting a picture of all is going well in Afghanistan and come visit...therefore, one could infer Bush-Obama domestification/pacification, or whatevr the misson became...is working. The Echo Chamber here should get the idea that BHO is following thru in Afghanistan and the future looks bright there....but some 'mission creep' . Sounds like we could use some of this American now and influx to re-develop our own country along about now..!!..

I think thats all a matter of how its read.. I dont think things are perfect.. In fact I think things are far from it.. there have been plenty of failures along the way.. but I also recognize the successes..
 
That said.. the value I saw in Afghanistan 10 years ago was a tactical one.. that is no longer the case.. the value (if the US can continue to shift focus and capitalize on it) is now strategic.. the from tactical to strategic is where a number of problems have risen, and we havent handled all aspects of the change well..

No doubt time marches on with the trappings of civilization...but I don't know about the mind think of that nation changing much...

I agree with you here.. the mindset of a 3000+ year old culture, that in many ways is still trapped in the mid 1400's is changing at a VERY SLOW speed.. I highly doubt that it will change substantially in our lifetimes.. If we expect otherwise.. we are foolish.. sadly, most Americans are foolish in this regard and think the rest of the world moves and changes at the same speed we do.. it doesnt..
 
 
[/color]

Fine!, Tell the Echo Chamber here that all Afghanis and islamist are not heathen satanists...I already know that..

I dont agree with the Islamic religion (Im a Southern Baptist).. but what religion they practice has little to do with this whole argument.. there are Muslim nations that are far more progressive and western thinking than Afghanistan (Jordan is one of many examples).. what is at the core of the problem of getting Afghans to change their mindset is their culture, not their religion (although their religion influences their culture.. it is not the only thing involved..)

Uneasy truce....Afghani people don't like interlopers or trust Westerners too much...you're farangi. Sure, they had enough of the austere Talbani too. The Western occupation is just the flip side of the coin..

Agreed.. Afghans as a general rule just want to be left alone.. In a perfect world the Taliban would cease to exist, Al Q would have never set up training camps in their country, and we would have never felt like we needed to come in and get rid of them..

So what is the misson of the US Taxpayer in Afghanistan..??

thats an arbitrary question.. the same question could be asked (just as elusively) about a number of things.. whats the mission of the US taxpayer on the mexican border? whats the mission of the US taxpayer in offshore drilling? whats the mission of the US taxpayer in Israel?
 
The mission of the US government SHOULD be to protect the interests of US citizens (obviously this doesnt always happen).. not everyone is going to agree on which direction should be taken on all things.. but at the end of the day, it really doesnt matter how we got to where we are (unless we are talking about reviewing history so that we dont find ourselves walking down less favorable roads over and over again.. and thats a whole different discussion).. what matters is that we recognize where we are, and make the right decisions moving forward to protect the interests of our people..

Everybody wants stuff and trade...Afghanis are traders...they don't want excess baggage, or to be occupied. Unamiously, here in the echo chamber, I dare say no forum member would tolerate foreign occupation of our homeland just to get 'stuff'....but I could be wrong...

Agreed.. Afghans are traders and merchants at their very core.. it is a deep part of their culture.. and no one wants excess baggage.. I would also agree that no one wants to be occupied..
 
that said.. as has been stated NUMEROUS times above.. while Afghans are generally uneducated.. they are not stupid.. they recognize what their options and alternatives are.. and they accept that while their current situation is not perfect.. it is better than the other options currently on the table.. they are generally speaking much better off today than they were 11 years ago.. and they are generally much better off today, than they would be if we pulled up stakes and left tomorrow.. the average Afghan walking down the street has no desire to see the US leave in 2014.. as time goes on, this may change.. as they rebuild their military, rebuild their police and security forces, etc.. and IF (huge IF here) they can manage to ever put together a working government.. sooner or later they are going to want us out.. but for now.. they dont..
 
no different than the Germans.. are we occupiers there too? We have had a military presence there continually for over 60 years.. do you think they see us as invaders? or do you think the Germans see the USAF and US Army in their country as security against their potential enemies and believe that our presence there is mutually beneficial?

 

Wait a minute...they hate the Brits, but love or tolerate us..!? 

Correct.. they hate the brits.. I dont think they "love" us.. but they tolorate us, and see the benefit of our presence.. when the brits came in during the 1800's their stated purpose was colonialism.. the Afghans did not have their own government.. they had a british governor.. the perception (whether right or wrong, again, is a different argument) is we came to their country, and ASSISTED them in ridding the country of an oppressive regime..
 
 

And The Russians did not allow a repressive regime to take over...they were fought tooth and nail by a CIA-USA supported muhajadeen who were fired up on radical islam and organized and funded by CIA agent Tim Osman..this was used to displace the Russians who simplely left in time...

Agreed.. perhaps I wasnt clear in my last post.. what was being said is the russians left in a hurry.. with the county in turmoil.. with numerous militias beating down the doors of Kabul.. this instability allowed the Taliban (who had the financial backing of the Pakistanis) to gain control.. and, whether right or wrong (again, perceptions.. and a whole different discussion to be had) the Afghans hated the russians as occupiers, and place much of the blame of the Taliban being able to take over on them..
 

the vacuum and the rest is history of Bush Oil interest trying to work and coerce the Talibani right up to the 911 reason ( ) for our Taxpayer invasion...

Im not following you here... there is no oil in Afghanistan.. there is no oil pipeline in Afghanistan.. etc.. where are you going with this part?
 

Hardly babble and conspiracy, and the astute reader will pick up on this charge to glibbly dismiss as further lending creedence to my thesis. Z Brezenski's Giant Chess Board and Caucaus policy is well known. The Chinese relations with Pakistan, weapons deals, Defence Pacts is easily tracked, PNAC's "new pearl harbour" crap is easily traced...that 911 was never inmvestighated properly is a fact based in pure Truth.

 
I guess the question here is do you really believe Brezenski, as a relatively minor functionary within the Defense Department (the most senior position he held in recent years is the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Europeand NATO Policy), whose last real claim to fame was he was the National Security Advisor to Jimmy Carter.. who has been at one time associated with the neocon movement (close friends with Paul Wolfowitz), but also is a former Democrat (like Wolfowitz), but has recently gone back to liberal roots and supported Obama's campain.. has all that much influence...
 
Having spent quite a bit of time in DC and having worked as a direct report to at least one person mentioned in this thread.. my opinion is he hasnt had major influence in Washingtn since we elected a peanut farmer from Georgia into the office of the President.. He has presence.. A LOT of people do.. that doesnt mean he has a hotline to the White House.. and his influence is/was minimal by comparrison with others working inside the beltway...
 
The Chinese relationship with Pakistan is just as strained and crazy as ours is.. we have also made weapons deals with the Pakistanis.. we have also had defense agreements with them.. no different than the Chinese.. Chinese interests in Pakistan have little to do with what is happening in Afghanistan.. (although I would agree with you.. overall the Pakistani's are much more interested in keeping the Chinese happy than they are us.. China sees India as a regional economic rivals and has actually begun sending people to India to observe how they are managing their economy, their government, etc.. The Indians and Chinese are sharing information, opening businesses in each others countries, etc... The Pakistani's and Indians hate each other.. the Pakistanis have no desire for the Chinease to become best friends with their mortal enemies.. and are striving hard to keep that from happening..

The Bactrian Kingdom may have actually been the crown of creation for the time, enlightened when Europe was in the Dark,,,possible source of Christ's Logos and Enlightenment...etc..  Russians were into this--still are...talibani tried to steal the Gold,,,but Americans got there in just the nick of time...go figure that one..!.

Now I am legitimately interested.. looks like I am going to have to start using my google-fu...
 
 

[mdwest]

What I would like to know is if you have knowledge of reports of very high grade uranium in Afghanistan, also lithium and other rare earths, and the notorious pipeline controls that Bush Jr Company was trying to negogiate with the Talibani..

I have no knowledge of any of that at all.. and have been all over the country numerous times over the past several years.. Ive seen nothing credible to back any of that...
 
there is certainly plenty of depleted uranium laying on the surface all over the country.. left there from when our A10's straffed targets with their 30mm guns... it has zero value in making nuclear weapons (or much of anything else for that matter..)
 

Fact:every where the USA has gone in the MID EAST,,,cultural development has actually slowed,,,usually non-sectarian regimes take over in our wake when leaving or meddling...important to note this...when considering resopurce extraction and Global competition...this effectively knocks out arab and moslem competition eg. banking, currency, resource extraction, and so on...

Back to quoting opinions as facts.. what is your definition of cultural development? what are the goals and objectives of the US? what are the goals and objectives of the government of the mid east countries you are speaking of? What culture are you talking about? the advancement and development of bedouin arab culture? the development of persian culture? the development of western culture in the middle east?
 
Have you been to Jordan in the last decade?
 
how about the UAE?
 
And.. what does the middle east have to do with this thread? Afghanistan IS NOT a middle eastern nation.. it is a Southwest Asian nation full of persians, not arabs..

Actually, these are very real specific questions that astute taxpayers would like answered...

then specify the question.. what is the american tax payers "mission" on anything? your question makes no sense to me at all..
 
[/color]

Well, Americans use to get along with islamic countries pretty well at one time...
 
and still does get along with many of them every bit as well today as we did 10, 20, and 30 years ago.. when is the last time you visited any of them?
 
I spent a week in the UAE a few months ago...
 
Tanzania has a huge muslim population.. I spent a week there last year..
 
Sudan has a huge muslim population.. Ill be headed there in January..
 
In the past 5 years I have spent time in Jordan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, Qatar, and a host of other countries that have a majority of muslim citizens.. on three different continents..
 
What do you think is different today than 10 years ago? what about 20 years ago?

Ok,,,I'm glad you have respect and some admiration for the Afghanis....I don't think the truce Afghanis have with the USA is long lived...most biding time.  Some 3rd party(s) may come along and stirr the pot.

no one said I admire the Afghans.. I do not.. there are several individual afghans that I like.. and I have absolutely worked around numerous Afghans for years.. but that doesnt mean I admire them at all..
 
and so what if the "truce" is long lived? Do you think the country of Afghanistan has the tactical or strategic ability to be a threat to the US?
 
Some 3rd party(s) stir the pot every day, in other countries, all over the globe.. what makes Afghanistan any different? and again.. so what if they did?
 

many germans today realize this...many would like us gone, and growing, especially since reciprocal occupying Soviets have changed masks.

the Germans dont want us gone.. certainly the number isnt growing.. if anything, they have started pretty vocally lobbying for us to stay.. we have been going on our own (you are aware of this, yes?)...we have closed many military installations in germany over the past decade.. and have plans to close many more.. as our relationship with other central european countries has strengthened, we have moved resources and assets further east into poland, kosovo, etc.. germany no longer has the same strategic value that it had when the iron curtain was still up.. germany is loosing MONEY (something everybody likes).. no US servicemen means no more revenue.. germany isnt asking us to leave.. we are however leaving (for the most part), and moving to places that offer more strategic value..
 
you are aware of course that germany also has military installations on US soil correct? bases that have opened in recent history?
 
[/color]

Maybe, but 'colonialism' is just colonialism under any other name..  Their elders must know this...

and when was the last time you talked to an Afghan elder?
 
I talk to several of them frequently.. none that I know share your opinion..
 
would you like me to put you in contact with a couple so you can gauge their thoughts? (seriously.. no screwing with you.. here is a chance for you to go to the source.. and find out the truth.. for yourself)..

 

Bush Oil interest is short for Global Big Oil Energy interest as represented by Bush Inc....surely you are aware of the really huge gas, etc reserves in the Caucus Basin, the pipeline deals (esp Bush Inc trying to broker with the Taliban,,,(but didn't the Taliban go with an Argentinian company for pipelines?,,canceled with 911  ), pipe transfer fee$, and rare earth resources in the region, maybe gold, too. if the Bactrrian connectionpans out. Rest is strategic..flank Iran,,,continue encircling Russaia and China. 

the only part of any of that, that makes any sense is.. yes.. there is alot of oil in the caucus (which is not Afghanistan).. and there was a project planned in the 1990's (Clinton Administration) to build a pipeline from some of the caucus countries through afghanistan and pakistan.. that never happened..
 
and having troops in afghanistan is absolutely of strategic value.. I dont think anyone disputes that at all..
 

[/color]

Brezinski is a heavy weight..CFR, Tri-Lateral, maybe Bilderberger, etc. wrote The Grand Chess Board......he is BHO's chief foreign policy advisor

we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.. your definition of a heavy weight appears to have a much lower bar set than mine does..
 
if bilderbergers concern you.. i bet hearing your opinion of the bohemian grove is outright entertaining... 

China and Pakistan have juts announced joint military practice training, etc...much taking place in China...first time ever foreign troops practcing in China.  I suggest looking into the 60m year of Chinese-Paki alliances and Defence Pacts

China is playing both ends against the middle.. they are also entering into all kinds of economic deals with Pakistans biggest enemy, India, which is damaging the Pakistani economy..
.

[bigMikeA]

mdwest sir...  thank you for your posts on this topic.  All I have previously known about Afghanistan is what I have been fed by the MSM and what has been shared with me by a few acquaintences who have actually been there, done that.

Your version of the reality there is in line with what has previously been shared with me.

Thank you again for your posts. 

[mdwest]

My definiton of 'cutural development' is yours. Fact:..post Shah Iran=islamic republic; post Gadaffi=al quaeda rule; post sad'dam=another islamic republic; post Kosovo= more moslem rule; post Mubarek=moslem brotherhood and so on. Two types of islamic countries...western client states and islamic theocracy

for every failure you quote.. there is also a success.. (Jordan, Bahrain, Qatar, etc..etc..)... many of the "failures you quote have/had little or nothing to do with us (Sadat was our "friend" (sort of).. we didnt put Mubarek in power.. and only marginally supported him.. our relationship was on again-off again with the Egyptians for the past 2 decades.. Gadaffi just left power, and Al Quaeda is not in power in Libya.. etc...
 
post war Kosovo is a muslim nation.. Kosovo however is much more a friend to the US than Yugoslavia was during its time spent behind the iron curtain (you are aware that the US maintains multiple military facilities in Kosovo (at the request of the Kosovites..) that are strategically important to us correct?).. I would hardly call them an enemy.. Maybe you think they would be better friends of our if we went back to the days when Tito ruled? or perhpas you think Milosevic would have been a better friend to the US? Surely you jest..

You've been in/or around governmnet too long.  Remember American Taxpayer= Citizen=we-the-people...the guys paying the bills and spilling blood.  What is the misson of the US Taxpayer in Afghanistan at this point as you see it...?

I havent been "in" the government since 1996.. at that time I was an infantry soldier.. hardly a functionary of the federal government... since then I have been "around" the government quite a bit.. I have also been "around" the private sector (one of the primary "customers I work with in business these days is a fortune 50 manufacturer.. another is a multi-billion dollar canadian technology company.. as stated before the government is but one customer.. it is hardly a focus.. it does however give me the ability to have contacts and insight into reality.. something I am not sure you have any visibility on at all..
 
I understand who "we the people are".. my question to you is what mission do you (or any other citizens) play in any specific area?
 
the people are the voice..
 
the government is the action arm..
 
the government SHOULD act in the best interest of the people.. (sometimes it does.. often times politicians act in their own self interest.. but that is another debate all together)..
 
the people have no mission.. other than to vote.. and to tell their government what it is they want/need/require it to do..
 
If you want a mission beyond you vote.. go enlist in the Army.. put in an application to the state department.. go volunteer at a national park.. you will be given one..

 

Keynesian Militarism....USA is in Perpetual war on these various peoples when they don't follow the script or show nationalistic tendacies, or threaten the zzios...or vary from Global Big Energy plans...

the question was the last 10 years... your answer reflects the past 50 years.. we have had constant conflicts since the end of WWII.. some more public than others.. there have been US fighting men and women on foreign soil engaging in continuously.. the last 10 years is not something new..
 
it is also something that almost every country in the history of man that has been a world power has done since the dawn of time.. its what happens when you are a world power.. you move to protect your interests, or assets, maintain your presence and your power..
 
the brits did it.. as did the french.. when they were on top..
 
guess what.. so did Saladin...
 
so did Alexander..
 
so did the Romans..
 
and the list goes on and on..
 
since WW II.. the more public wars and conflicts include...
 
Korea (still technically at "war" there by the way.. no perminant peace treaty has ever been signed..)...
Vietnam
Honduras
El Salvador
Grenada
Panama
Kosovo
Liberia
Somolia
Haiti
Gulf War I
Afghanistan
Gulf War II
 
See a trend here?
 
We sent "advisors" to Uganda earlier this month..
 
If youre too lazy to do the research yourself.. I can go find another couple of dozen countries where we have engaged in combat operations or have provided direct support to combat operations.. over the past 50+ years..
 
We were doing this prior to WWII as well..
 
Ever hear of the boxer rebellion?
 
or what about the what we did in the Phillipines?
 
Bananna wars?
 
again.. the list goes on and on..
 
 

Ok...thanx for clarifying...so you don't admire the Afghans..just the ones that agree with you and your planners...Ok, figures.

once again, when you cant substantiate your point, you resort to presumptions... do you intend on offering any facts in this thread (or any others you participate in)?

...better yet send there impression of US/Afghani relations to this website and post it...and their greater view of 'colonialism' in their region, and how Americans differ from Brits.....not like there isn't a huge colonial history in the region..East India Company, etc, Russian experience.  I doubt you talk to many Afghanis that just want you to leave....

it must be difficult to live in a world where you identify yourself as a "truther".. but have no interest in finding out the truth unless it supports an agenda you have contrived in your mind..
 
you have an opinion on Afghanistan (one that is wrong.. but you are certainly entitled to it)...
 
you have been told how you can go get ground truth for yourself (even offered a ride from the airport).. but you refuse..
 
you have been offered to be put in contact with people on the ground that can give you relevant, timely, and factual information.. but you dont want to commmunicate with them (you would rather someone else do it for you)..
 
you are correct in your last statement here though.. of the THOUSANDS of Afghans I have communicated with over the years.. I havent spoken with many that want the US to leave..
 
how many have you talked to again? where is it you draw YOUR opinion from?
 

Check it out,,,,Bush tried to negogiate a pipeline contract with Talibani at his ranch but failed...instead they went with an Argenetian Corp for the pipeline, etc....that all got canceld..    Talibani also said they would hand over Beans Laden if the USA would file legal extraditon papers explaining what he did....Bush never did that.  Of course, OBL was never on FBI wanted list for 911

would be glad to (seriously).. provide some links..

 

Please explain that strategic value to we-the-American Taxpayer one more time...thanx

"we the people" is the whole of the people.. it is the government asking (and then acting on) the will of the collective group.. not the fragmented super minority..
 
You may not see a strategic value in Afghanistan (strategic value obviously depends on your strategy.. and your strategy for the US is apparently different than the majority of people living in the US these days)..
 
By MOST people of the world's definition (not just US citizens), Afghanistan provides several strategic values however.. It provides geostrategic, geopolitical, and geoeconomic opportunities that many countries find value in..
 
Here's a paper written by the South Asia Analysis Group on the strategic value of Afghanistan
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers32/paper3139.html
 
Here is an article written by the Asia Times
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JE16Ad03.html
 
Here is a tidbit on what Hamid Karzai thinks about Afghanistans strategic value
http://www.pajhwok.com/en/2010/10/13/seminar-afghanistans-strategic-importance-begins
 
Here is what the Indians were saying in the 1990's about Afghanistans strategic value in the region
http://www.indianembassy.org/policy/Foreign_Policy/afghan.htm
 
Jamestown Foundation paper on Afghanistans strategic value
http://www.jamestown.org/programs/chinabrief/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=4915&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=168&no_cache=1
 

...next time your at Bohemian Grove give us a firsthand report...

this will have you running for a new box of reynolds wrap...
 
I was at the Bohemian Gove in 2006..
 
I was also at two different Builderburger events in 2005-2006...
 
No.. I wasnt a participant (I am less important in the grand scheme of things than even Brezinski)...
 
Read this thread and others I have participated in very closely.. if you are half as smart as you think you are.. you should be able to piece things together and figure out why I was there.. and who I might have been there with (who was the participant)..
 
I'd be glad to give you a first hand report of what really happens at the Bohemian Grove..
 
but since it doesnt involve worshiping owls or a small group of evil men plotting to take over the world.. Im guessing you wouldnt be all that interested..
 
before you attempt to go down the "youre one of THEM!" road and start covering your roof with tin-foil..
 
no.. I am not a neocon.. no I am not a politician.. no I am not a billionarie..
 
Im not even a registered member of the republican party..
 
I identify myself is fairly conservative on moral and ethical issues.. but an not a hard right winger..
 
and while I dont agree with everything on the libertarian platform.. my ideologies are more in line with libertarians than they are with republicans or democrats..
 
 
I was there working.. it was a job assignment.. I was not a participant.. (the paramedics, trash collectors, etc.. that are there arent "members" of the grove either.. )
 
All that said.. my "opinion" is based on first hand experice personal knowledge..
 
whats yours based on?

 

..China is doing well and seems to have a policy structure more based in reality than overt military Keynsian stratetgy, which is bankrupting our country....Current BHO-Brezinski problem-project is to keep them out off Africa...this ought to cost we-the-American Taxpayer dearly...

we can agree on this piece somewhat.. China is doing exceptionally well.. I also agree that the current administration (as well as the last one) spent alot of time, money, and energy focused on Africa..
 
that said.. no one (whether they are trying to do this intentionally or not) has had any success keeping the Chinese off the dark continent.. they are the dominant outside presence in MANY african countries in both East Africa and West Africa..

[mdwest]

Thank you again for your posts.

Thanks Mike..
 
 

[jimster]

I would like to see us pull out of Afghanistan because our son is in Mississippi now training for that and will go to Afghanistan from there.  He already did a tour in Iraq. That is rather selfish I realize, but I can see no end in sight there.  In my view there is nothing anywhere in the middle east worth one soldiers life.  Besides, with our borders wide open, they are already here.  I'd like to see our soldiers come home and secure our borders and spend the next several years transporting all illegal people out of America and have people get in the legal way. 
 
We can't save the world...and in the attempt to do so we have weakened and put our own country in danger.  We have our own problems to deal with, if we ever get around to it.  In the meantime until America wakes up, God bless our military people which are spread out all over the world trying save the entire world all at once.  Which in my opinion is actually impossible even if the U.S. had the money, which it does not.  Just my opinion...they vary.
 

[mdwest]

Well here's the record, in the past 50 years isreal and its satelite vassal state the USA:.
 

it took all this to finally get to your real issue?
 
we're back at israel and the jews..
 
why not just state that at the beginning of all of your posts/threads? it would make things easier on all parties involved (yourself included)..
 

[mdwest]

I would like to see us pull out of Afghanistan because our son is in Mississippi now training for that and will go to Afghanistan from there.  He already did a tour in Iraq. That is rather selfish I realize, but I can see no end in sight there.  In my view there is nothing anywhere in the middle east worth one soldiers life.  Besides, with our borders wide open, they are already here.  I'd like to see our soldiers come home and secure our borders and spend the next several years transporting all illegal people out of America and have people get in the legal way. 
 
We can't save the world...and in the attempt to do so we have weakened and put our own country in danger.  We have our own problems to deal with, if we ever get around to it.  In the meantime until America wakes up, God bless our military people which are spread out all over the world trying save the entire world all at once.  Which in my opinion is actually impossible even if the U.S. had the money, which it does not.  Just my opinion...they vary.

this is rational.. and while I dont agree with everything you said.. I can respect it ( do agree with most of it by the way).. you clearly state your opinion (and recognize it as such), clearly state that you have personal skin in the game.. and clearly state that this influences your opinion.. and there are obvious reasons why any father that loves his son could feel the same way..
 
I was a soldier once.. as was my father.. as were both of my grandfathers..
 
and yet I have no desire for my son to become one (Ill support him in whatever decision he makes however)..
 
not because I dont support or believe in our foreign policy.. (parts of it I agree with.. other parts I do not..)...
 
but because frankly, it can be a tough life, that is far too often unappreciated and very often not understood by those who have never served themselves..
 
thank your son for his service for me.. and thank you for supporting your son.. regardless of your thoughts, opinions, and beliefs related to our foreign policy and our military actions..
 
 
troops on the border is a completely different debate..
 
I agree with you in that we need more focus and action on the border(s)..
 
I dont believe that members of the active duty military or the reserve are the right response though.. (I am good with the use of the national guard (non federal troops) in some capacities though)..

[powderman]

it took all this to finally get to your real issue?
 
we're back at israel and the jews..
 
why not just state that at the beginning of all of your posts/threads? it would make things easier on all parties involved (yourself included)..

 
MDWEST. I think you finally got it. Easy to remember with certain folks. Christians, Jews, Israel, America == BAD. terrorists, muslims==GOOD. See the pattern?? POWDERMAN. 

[jimster]

thank your son for his service for me.. and thank you for supporting your son.. regardless of your thoughts, opinions, and beliefs related to our foreign policy and our military actions..

Thank you sir, and thank you for your service as well.  Didn't mean to sound too whiny, just writing down some thoughts I have in my head, we don't convey many opinions of foreign policy on war in the middle east to our son, we just listen to him and support him.  He tells us his views and what's he's learned so far,  I just listen.  Learned some things about Iraq through his eyes, but depending on where they are and what they are doing that can vary too. He is NG by the way. Never cared too much for the idea of police action in other countries myself, I always thought when you go to war, it's all out...break it all at once with total devastation or don't go.  I figure last time we won a war we had to do that, the long drug out deals seem to half ass-ed wars,  police actions and the like.  I figure when we leave Iraq it will go back the way it was, I was told we are basically just paying a couple of groups to tolerate each other, and us, when we go and the money goes...all bets are off.  So maybe we never go...I notice we never do really leave any place we occupy.
 
Borders...I would think any group of armed people from another country who have killed American citizens already could be blown away pretty handily with some military equipment and someone in charge with some sand.  Armed invasion is armed invasion...the drug cartel can't be all that tough compared to military forces.  Good thing I'm not in charge I guess...nobody wants to REALLY protect our borders I guess.  So we do the half ass-ed thing.  Prolly have have to pay Mexico too...that's the way it works these days. 
 

[mdwest]

Do you know who John Perkins is.....? Or know him personally..?
 

I read economic hitman probably 8-10 years ago.. thats about all I know of him (never met him personally).. other than he is another very controversial figure, that some of his claims are a bit out there (and that he has refused to substantiate them), and the State Department claims he has "invented" some of his bio (sadly seems to be a fairly common theme among conspiracy theorists lately)..
 
I can say that his musings about Indonesia and its people in his book were fairly far from my experiences with them when I was there.. I spent time in both Jakarta and in South Sulawesi (not a whole lot of time there.. but probably as much as Perkins has.. )..
 
this is Makassar in 2006
 

 
 
all that said.. some of the things he claims happen in his book, I absolutely believe (have seen some of it for myself).. thats the world of big business and international politics.. the US and its big companies arent he only ones that play these games..
 
I dont believe all of it however.. I think much of it was over dramatized.. this is also the opinion of people I have spoken with at The World Bank and the IMF (officials at those organizations would obviously lean this way however.. I recognize that.. as they were largely the target of the book)..
 
 

[billy_56081]

Well here's the record, in the past 50 years isreal and its satelite vassal state the USA:.
 

it took all this to finally get to your real issue?
 
we're back at israel and the jews..
 
why not just state that at the beginning of all of your posts/threads? it would make things easier on all parties involved (yourself included)..
 

We have some hebrewphobic folks that can tie anything to their hatred of Jews.

[mdwest]

I would say that if your stated purpose is to be a seeker of truth and to be a researcher of "reality".. then the correct percentage of truth in your statements should be 100%.. anything less than that brings into question everything else you have to say.. if you will lie about your bio, lie about your connections, lie about your findings.. even 1%.. then what else will you lie about? How much of what you report to be "truth" but can not substantiate or provide evidence on can I count on to actually be truthful?
 
at the end of the day, Perkins has never been able to substantiate any relationship with the US government, other than he interviewed for a position at the NSA.. he claims numrous connections within the inteligence community (claims to be in contact with them even today), and yet has never brought forward even one additional person that I am aware of, or a single shred of evidence to validate his claims of these connections (individual, governmental, or inteligence)..
 
he weaves an interesting story.. some of which is factual.. some of which is not.. that made for a book that was well written, and entertaining to read.. but can not be considered anything other than that.. (entertainment)..
 
when taken out of context the facts he presents, when mixed with the information that can not be substantiated, validated, or proven... changes the entire outcome of of the story..
 
most important.. Perkins himself freely admits that many developed nations follow the same practices, and that while he feels the work he particpated in was immoral, that there is nothing illegal about it.. and that the corruption of the government in these foreign countries that he claims are being taken advantage of is the core of the problem.. if the leaders of these countries were more interested in the welfare of their own people, as opposed to their own political and/or financial gain, that the opportunity for countries like the US, China, the UK, Russia, etc.. to work them over for their own gain wouldnt exist..
 
I havent read his follow on two books.. or paid much attention to him since reading "hitman"..
 

[OldSchoolRanger]

Well here's the record, in the past 50 years isreal and its satelite vassal state the USA:.
 

it took all this to finally get to your real issue? we're back at israel and the jews..
 
why not just state that at the beginning of all of your posts/threads? it would make things easier on all parties involved (yourself included)..

mdwest - I have been trying to point this out for a while now.    has a dog in the fight.

[OldSchoolRanger]

Well here's the record, in the past 50 years isreal and its satelite vassal state the USA:.
 

it took all this to finally get to your real issue?
 
we're back at israel and the jews..
 
why not just state that at the beginning of all of your posts/threads? it would make things easier on all parties involved (yourself included)..
 

.
 
It is A consideration...that any patriotic American worth his salt should consider....can't serve 2 masters.
 
..TM7

I do believe this was the same charge thrown against John F. Kennedy.  In case you forgot, the charge was that if he was elected President, he would listen to the Pope, and all US policy would be controlled by the Catholic Church via the Vatican in Rome.

[OldSchoolRanger]

Well here's the record, in the past 50 years isreal and its satelite vassal state the USA:.
 

it took all this to finally get to your real issue?
 
we're back at israel and the jews..
 
why not just state that at the beginning of all of your posts/threads? it would make things easier on all parties involved (yourself included)..
 

.
 
Cop out. Vain attempt at glib dismissal of important topic...in effort to enforce taboo/blackout at discussing intelligently US foreign policy relative to this topic. Predictable.
 
It is A consideration...that any patriotic American worth his salt should consider....can't serve 2 masters.

 
Do you know who John Perkins is.....? Or know him personally..?
 
 
..TM7

I honestly don't feel that this is a cop-out. 
mdwest is pointing out a fact.  Almost all threads, and I would not be wrong if I claim 99% of the threads posted  by you usually leads to this accusation.

Regarding your question; "OSR...And who made these accusations against Kennedy..? WhY?"
Probably the same people who are always accusing Israel and the Jews of serving two masters.
The why?  You would probably be able to answer that question a lot better than I could, I have no idea why you believe that.