Author Topic: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?  (Read 2644 times)

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Offline reliquary

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Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« on: October 24, 2011, 11:13:39 AM »
I carry a Commander .45 and normally use common ball or 230-gr Lee truncated cone cast slugs for practice, with Silvertips for carrytime.  I also use the Keith style ~250 gr for the .45C in other weapons. 
 
Have any of you ever used the Keith 250 in your 1911 variants, and, if so, what were the results?  Do they feed well enough?  Do I need a heavier recoil spring? Is it worth my trouble running off a batch?...WTH,  I guess I could always use them in the things I have that use moon clips.  8-)

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2011, 01:07:42 PM »
They do on many.  My EAA (not a 1911) has no issues, but my buddy's kimber prefers the RNFP's I load.  Depends mainly on polish and angle or existence of loading ramp.  The EAA has a long mirror polished ramp, which has loaded everything I've thrown at it.  ;)
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline anachronism

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2011, 03:54:57 PM »
You cannot use a true Keith bullet in a 1911. You can use other semi-wadcutter designs, but true Keith bullets are too long to function.

Offline myronman3

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2011, 11:56:38 AM »
i use a 250 grain semi wadcutter in my kimber that have a big, flat meplat....and it loves them.     

Offline reliquary

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2011, 12:57:37 PM »
Thanks, all....Myronman3, is it allowed for you to post the charge data on the load? 

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2011, 01:28:37 PM »
This is the one I'm using:
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline myronman3

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2011, 02:16:54 PM »
it turns out that i lied....i use 255 grain slugs...not 250. 

Offline reliquary

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2011, 02:30:31 PM »
Thanks!

Offline Bitterroot Bob

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2011, 04:28:24 PM »
Howdy,
While it  designed for the .45 Auto-rim, Elmer did design a 238-grain SWC that works really well in the ACP. Lyman #452423 can be driven pretty hard out of a 5" 1911 barrel and is short enough that there are no feeding problems. Try it. You'll like it!
 
Bitterroot

Offline Mikey

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2011, 02:07:30 AM »
Bitterroot Bod is right.  I load and shoot his cast 238 gn Keith slugs for my 1911 and don't have a problem with them and they are so accurate in my 1911 that I use them for close in hunting loads (25-50 yds). 

Offline Jim_Ole_Timer

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2011, 02:17:06 PM »
Howdy,
While it  designed for the .45 Auto-rim, Elmer did design a 238-grain SWC that works really well in the ACP. Lyman #452423 can be driven pretty hard out of a 5" 1911 barrel and is short enough that there are no feeding problems. Try it. You'll like it!
 
Bitterroot

I just searched for the 453423 mold but couldn't find it. Would you have a link handy?
 
I have been using the 452 460 200grn semi wadcutter and the 452374 Hardball. Both work well and feed good, but the 452374 is best for feeding. I tried a Lee mold and itb was so bad I could never get one single bullet I casted to load. They were oblong and out of round. Disgusting to say the least, but I did return the mold for full credit.
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Offline StrawHat

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2011, 01:25:55 AM »
I don't shoot a self loader but do use a lot of the 454423 bullet.  Enough that I have a six cavity mold cut for it.  I am not sure if Lyman still lists the mold but one of the cast bullet forums runs a group buy on the design every now and again.  I have read of amny casters who have used it in the 1911 and found it a good bullet.
 
Here is an article about the bullet.
 
http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm
 
I do not see a group buy for this on the cast boolits site but it usually runs about once a year.
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Offline Savage

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2011, 06:32:34 AM »
I have used the 255gr in several of my 1911s. The bullet I use is similar to the one Myronman3 uses, if not the same bullet. I use Bullseye powder with close to the same charge as well. Shoots really well out of my guns. I have a Tanfoglio that shoots nice groups with this bullet too.

Savage
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Offline myronman3

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2011, 07:36:47 AM »
they look the same to me.   i bought mine at a sports store but i would love to have a mold for it. 

Offline anachronism

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2011, 04:04:48 PM »
Howdy,
While it  designed for the .45 Auto-rim, Elmer did design a 238-grain SWC that works really well in the ACP. Lyman #452423 can be driven pretty hard out of a 5" 1911 barrel and is short enough that there are no feeding problems. Try it. You'll like it!
 
Bitterroot

He said 250 gr. Although the 238 gr 45 AR bullet was designed by Keith, it does not encompass the same design characteristics as the 250 gr revolver bullet. If it did, it would weigh 250 gr, and be considerably longer.

Offline reliquary

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2011, 02:25:08 AM »
Let's go on to more productive things.   :P    I'll keep on with what I'm doing, as it works for me.  I have a couple of things that use the moon clips and some AR brass that needs breaking in and I'm going to use the Keith for them, to play a little...oops...I mean conduct controlled experiments.
 
Thanks for your input, everyone. 

Offline anachronism

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2011, 05:31:53 AM »
If you get a chance, try some of the traditional 45 Colt RNFP bullets, like the Lyman 454190. They feed really well in my 1911.

Offline Savage

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2011, 12:13:58 PM »
myronman3,
My bullets came from TVB. Bevel base 255gr LSWC. I am currently using Missouri Bullet Company bullets, so don't know if these are still available.


Savage
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Offline reliquary

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2011, 12:43:28 PM »
I have a couple of boxes of the 454190 loaded in .45 Colt cases; came in on a trade, cowboy loads.  I like them in my Uberti.  Will try them in the ACP if I can find some, loose.  Never thought about that.  Thanks!

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2011, 06:45:56 AM »
Yep, that's my goto style also.  I load 200 gr Dardas about 10x more of these for plinking and target shooting in my Auto and my Blackhawk ACP cylinder.  ;)
 
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline gstewart44

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2011, 01:49:30 PM »
WTH,  I guess I could always use them in the things I have that use moon clips.  8-)
that load works well in my SW 1917.     250-255 gr lead SWC over a very stout load of unique ( from an old Speer load manual) is my pig hunting sidearm.   It is very accurate and one of these pills easily traverses the ribcage or neck of 200 lb swine. 
I'm just tryin' to keep everything in balance, Woodrow. You do more work than you got to, so it's my obligation to do less. (Gus McCrae)

Offline reliquary

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2011, 02:44:56 PM »
gstewart44: 
 
I have the old Speer Number Nine.  It lists 5.8-6.2 grains of Unique under their lead 250 SWC for the Auto Rim case.
 
My 1917 is actually one of the 1930s Brazilian Contract, and is a little newer than the old WWI issue guns, but I hesitate to stress it too much.  Is this the load you were referring to, or close? 
 
My normal load for it is the 200-gr lead SWC with 6 grains of Unique and it seems to like that pill.  Never shot anything except an armadillo with it.  I carry a .45 BH with the 250 over 9 grains of Unique when I go where the pigs roam.

Offline anachronism

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2011, 09:40:57 AM »
Speers loading data for 250 gr bullets in 45 ACP is a little too hot in my opinion. I'd try the starting loads shown, then adjust the powder charge up (or down) from there. I have some 250 gr bullets loaded  below their listed max loads that are downright uncomfortable in a 1911.

Offline reliquary

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2011, 04:11:24 PM »
Thanks for the cautionary note, anachronism.  I learned long ago to start with modest loads and work my way up. 

Offline Mikey

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2011, 11:35:07 PM »
"Although the 238 gr 45 AR bullet was designed by Keith, it does not encompass the same design characteristics as the 250 gr revolver bullet. If it did, it would weigh 250 gr, and be considerably longer".
 
Anachronism:  I'm a bit lost on this one.  Keith designed this slug for the 45 AR, but also for use in the 45 Colt and the 45 Shofield.  I believe he cut the weight back a bit for the later two shorter cases but it is a Keith design:  two grease grooves, wider front leading band, large metplat.  The 250 gn 454190 is not a Keith design (although I am sure there are 250 gn swc slugs out there that mimic it) and the only real difference twixt the 255 gn 454424 and the 454423 is the slightly longer nose on the later.  In fact, if you cast the 454423 soft enough for the slower velocities of the acp or the ar you usually drop a slug that weighs anywhere from 248 gns to 250 gns. 
 
reliquary:  I like the look and feel of the 1917 Smith and Wesson revolvers and prefer them in one piece, including the hand that holds them.   I would start with modest loads, as you stated, but not bother working up too far in a 80 y/o revolver.  Regardless of the bullet weight you use, the one major factor improving the on target performance of any (45 caliber) revolver round that has evolved from the black powder days is the square shouldered flat metplat design of Keith and Thompson orgin.  These bullets do not have to be moving any faster than the original loads to perform better, as the impact effect of the flat metplat is much more effective than the old round nose design. 
 
The round nose design was a hold over from the old mini-ball concept for use with black powder (iirc).  It also made reloading the cylinder on those old wheelguns a tad easier under stress than flat nosed slugs but it was Keith and Thompson who thought up the flat nose design for more effective use in handgun hunting (I believe) but not too much later the use of that design in police work began to show up long before any factory used the design.

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2011, 11:51:38 PM »
I fooled with them a bit years ago. I quit for a few reasons. I was allways conserned about beating up a nice 1911 and didnt want to fool with swapping out springs to a heavier one every time i used them. I also allways figured for what a 1911 is used for i just dont see any advantage to them over a good 200swc. Now if you start talking revolvers thats a diffent story. Ive killed deer and pigs with 25 smiths using acp and auto rim brass loaded with 255s but at a level i wouldnt subject a 1911 to.
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Offline gstewart44

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2011, 08:18:42 AM »
gstewart44: 
 
I have the old Speer Number Nine.  It lists 5.8-6.2 grains of Unique under their lead 250 SWC for the Auto Rim case.
 
My 1917 is actually one of the 1930s Brazilian Contract, and is a little newer than the old WWI issue guns, but I hesitate to stress it too much.  Is this the load you were referring to, or close? 
 
close - near max but certainly not over.    it does a great job of anchoring swine and it is dead on accurate in my 1917.
I'm just tryin' to keep everything in balance, Woodrow. You do more work than you got to, so it's my obligation to do less. (Gus McCrae)

Offline anachronism

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2011, 01:09:08 PM »
Anachronism:  I'm a bit lost on this one.  Keith designed this slug for the 45 AR, but also for use in the 45 Colt and the 45 Shofield.  I believe he cut the weight back a bit for the later two shorter cases but it is a Keith design:  two grease grooves, wider front leading band, large metplat.  The 250 gn 454190 is not a Keith design (although I am sure there are 250 gn swc slugs out there that mimic it) and the only real difference twixt the 255 gn 454424 and the 454423 is the slightly longer nose on the later.  In fact, if you cast the 454423 soft enough for the slower velocities of the acp or the ar you usually drop a slug that weighs anywhere from 248 gns to 250 gns.

So it is your position that the 238 gr bullet, and the 250 gr bullet are the same?

Offline Mikey

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2011, 11:46:40 PM »
Sorry, should have said slightly longer nose on the former, not the later, but I never said the 238 gn swc and the 250 gn rn were the same.  I said the only real difference between the 423 and the 424 is the slightly longer nose on the later. 

Offline gstewart44

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Re: Keith-style slugs in the 1911?
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2011, 03:12:51 AM »
gstewart44: 
 
I have the old Speer Number Nine.  It lists 5.8-6.2 grains of Unique under their lead 250 SWC for the Auto Rim case.
 
My 1917 is actually one of the 1930s Brazilian Contract, and is a little newer than the old WWI issue guns, but I hesitate to stress it too much.  Is this the load you were referring to, or close? 
 
close - near max but certainly not over.    it does a great job of anchoring swine and it is dead on accurate in my 1917.
I found my old load book -  It is Speer #7 Manual.    Page 45-46 will have the info that I will not repeat here.   It lists some extremely hot loads for 45 ACP and 45 AutoRim  (very heavy load of 2400 and 255 gr SWC).    The 2400 works well but is very dirty in the revolver. 
I'm just tryin' to keep everything in balance, Woodrow. You do more work than you got to, so it's my obligation to do less. (Gus McCrae)