.45-70 Handloads

[Gonzo2506]

I am new here. I have shot over 200 hand loads in my Buffalo Classic. It will shoot Remington factory loads into a ragged hole most of the time. 3 shot groups. I have tried IMR 4198,AA5744 and Varget. The groups look like somebody shot a load of 00 Buckshot at the backstop. Any suggestions? The velocities are running from high 1900 to 2020. I have tried the hard cast bullets and now have some 405 grain hard cast ordered. Again any suggestions?
                                                          Gonzo

[cwlongshot]

First of all WELCOME!!!

Your loads are head and shoulders above the factory Remmys. Try backing off on the intencitys.
I have a couple loadings that broach 2000fps but find it far more enjoyable  at 15 or 1600FPS.

Your powder choices are good.

With lead bullet, a starting load of 5744 shoots mighty fine from all of my 45 /70s.

I haven't used Varget but know its close to 3031 and 3031 is a long time favorite 45/70 powder.

For the heavy loads it's tough to beat 4198 or RL7.

Good luck
CW

[petemi]

Yeah, Gonzo....cut ten inches off your barrel......No, not really.  My 22 inch Handi shoots jacketed.405 Remingtons well at that velocity over IMR 4198.  Shooting cast, I'd slow it down quite a bit. 

Pete 

[tacklebury]

+1 on RL7 my sole .45-70 powder here, except unique for RB loads.  I like 46-48 with 300-350 gr. jacketed bullets.  I haven't done a lot of lead. 

[gcrank1]

In my experience usually keeping plain base cast bullets under 1450fps works better. And you have to be sure your lead bullet fits the groove dia., at least, or they are too small and will suffer gas cutting of the base band (or more) resulting in leading and poor accuracy.
Take a fired case and one of the bullets that shoots patterns rather than groups. If the bullet falls into that fully fire-formed case mouth, it is too small.

[Jimbo47]

Yep those Remington factory loads are probably around 1300 ft per sec shooting a 405 grain bullet according to their data.
 
Shooting the velocities you are shooting I wouldn't rule out maybe a slight anticipation of the recoil.....Ouch!
 
Slow down a little to around 1500 ft. per sec. and I'll bet you find your groups shrinking.

[bikerbeans]

gonzo,
 
+1 on gcrank and checking the fired case mouth ID.  I have found all of my 45 cal Handi rifles need at least a .459" diameter lead bullet to shoot well.  Also, usually you need a gas check on a cast lead bullet for >1,500 FPS.
 
BB

[quickdtoo]

Welcome Gonzo! What BB and gcrank1 said. 

The 405gr Rem factory loads average 1205fps(14' from the muzzle) in my 22" Handi, just shot em a couple weeks ago along with the 325gr LE ammo which averages 1938fps in the same barrel.

Tim

[silver surfer]

+1 on slow them down.  I have tried Laser Cast 350 with the exact same problem.  I was using to much powder for the Brinnel Hardness (22) of the round and it was ugly.  After that it was bliss.  Good Luck and be safe.
 

[John R.]

Gonzo was shooting a 300 gr. Rem. factory bullet. The 300 gr. lead bullet he was shooting was a Cast Performance with a gas check.

[quickdtoo]

Gonzo was shooting a 300 gr. Rem. factory bullet. The 300 gr. lead bullet he was shooting was a Cast Performance with a gas check.

It can still be too small, as long as it will chamber, cast bullets can't be too big, as a rule for H&Rs, .459" and .460" work best, some have even used .461".  Most H&R 45-70's have Marlin MicroGroove rifling...

Tim

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin-MicroGroove.htm

There has been a great deal of concern over the years about whether or not Microgroove rifling would shoot cast bullets well. One group of folks says that Microgroove rifles can't hit a barn from the inside with cast bullets, one group says that Microgroove barrels shoot cast just fine just so long as velocities are kept below 1600 fps, and one groups says that Microgroove barrels shoot cast just fine at full throttle. The key to success with cast bullets in a Marlin with Microgroove rifling is to keep in mind that these barrels tend to have oversized groove diameters, and that the grooves/lands are shallow. Therefore, in order to get proper engraving (and minimize "slippage" of the cast bullet as it enters the shallow rifling), it is necessary that the bullet completely fill up the groove diameter of the barrel, and engage the maximum amount of the driving surface of the lands. Since Microgroove barrels are commonly oversized, this means that the cast bullet must also be oversized to effectively "fill up" the grooves. Other factors that also contribute to good accuracy with cast bullet in Microgroove barrels are the use of a GC bullet (which helps to provide a better grip and seal), and making sure that bullet are cast hard enough for the application (generally a BHN of 12 or more). It is also worth remembering that throats in modern rifles are almost always cut larger than groove diameter of the barrel (to insure that ammunition can chamber easily), and that best cast bullet accuracy is obtained by fitting the bullet to the throat, hence reinforcing the need for oversized cast bullets in Microgroove barrels (for example, the throats on my .30-30s run almost .311", so I size cast bullets to .310" for these guns).

[John R.]

Quickdtoo, would you recomend going to a .460 dia bullet in the 45-70 Buffalo Classic? The bullets Gonzo is shooting are sized .459. I think his gun is around 3 years old. He said the gun shot good with 300 gr. Rem. factory bullets, so he ordered some Rem. 300 gr. bullets to reload. The gun has not shot good groups with any handload he's put through it. The cast bullets he ordered were Cast Performance 300 gr. FNGC. All of the Handi rifles in 45-70 I have fooled with shot good (22" bbls). It seems odd to me it would shoot factory loads good, but not reloads. He's been reloading for years, so I don't think that's the problem.

[Swampman]

The Lee .459 HB 405 mold it's awesome.

[gcrank1]

Has that bullet dia. been verified with a caliper? Ive seen way too many cast bullets 'mislabled' to trust what the box says.
The other thing I seen too often is newish reloaders thinking that they can just substitute the cast bullet for jacketed without using a lead friendly load.
Not saying this is whats happening here, but when there are problems its best to start at the beginning........

[DaveW]

I have great luck with IMR 4198! My hunting load is 35grn 4198 pushing a remington 405. Haven't shot it through a crono but I have shot it through a 200+ lb black bear as well as a nice whitetail doe. Complete through and through penetration on both animals. This load should be in the 1400fps ish range according to data in my Lee manual. I tried some heavy loads this spring and had decent luck, but it's hard to get a good group when you know that recoil is coming. I'm with the rest of the guys, back it off a bit and I bet your groups will improve. A 405grn slug moving anywhere over 1200fps or so will kill anything that walks. You could probably knock them over if you threw it at them.

[silver surfer]

If its possible to recover a bullet that is not to damaged look at the ogive and bearing surface to see how well the lands and grooves engaged.  When I had my "Ugly" experience with the Laser Cast 350's they were smearing down the barrel.  I may have ordered them a little to small (.459) if memory serves and the box has long since fallen apart.  Even with a gas check this can happen.  I  was pushing them with a moderate load from the Lee #2 manual and for that bullet/gun combo it was to fast for my BC.  Slugging is a great way to get a good starting point, but it doesn't answer all the questions for poor bullet performance. 
To have both lead and jacketed bullets to shoot poorly may be another problem.  Hopefully it is a simple fix such as increasing the bullet dia..