Author Topic: New 44mag Handi aka "Devil rifle" range report (UPDATED) (Read 8650 times)

Bull Nutria · « **on:** October 26, 2011, 03:16:27 PM »

First started out by shooting 3 fouling shots out a of a clean barrel with factory Rem 180 JSP, these sprayed the usual 3-4 group high right at 50 yds.
Second load tried was a 265g Hornady FTX over 16.5 gr of Alliant 2400. gun was shot off of one sand bag (on a concrete bench) that was touching the front of the trigger guard. nothing touching the barrel. the 3 shot group was 1 1/8 inches a little high and right of bull. Eureka I thought i found it--I found the sweet spot.
Let rifle cool while i shot another rifle. Third load tried was 265g Horn over 17.5g-- 2400, 7 inch vertical string one round 3 in high other two 4 and 6in below bull still at 50 yds. I thought can 1 grain of 2400 have this much effect on a group???
Fourth, 3 shot group was max of 18.3 grains of 2400 under same 265g bullet. results a 5 inch group 3inches below and slightly right of bull(1inch orange dot).
Fifth group,180 gr Fact Rem same high 3-4 inch group.
Now can someone tell me what is going on here? can the difference in powder charge cause these groups to be so variable in this rifle or is something else going on here? I do have 2 O rings on the forend stud, the forend does not touch the barrel from the stud forward. I have had the trigger worked over by a professsional gunsmith and it is very nice around 3 lbs.
I have named this little rifle the "Devil Rifle" . Obviously i want to crank out a handful of those 16.5 grian loads and see if the rifle will repeat that 1 1/8 inch group, I sure hope so. I have almost as much money in ammo and reloading supplies as i have in the rifle!! I also ordered a variety pack of "oversize"for bore cast bullets to try to tame the "Devil Rifle"
Stay tuned,
Bull

ratdog · « **Reply #1 on:** October 26, 2011, 03:41:16 PM »

went through the same crap but with my 357. its back at Remington right now.you may have luck with the oversize cast bullets .

Spanky · « **Reply #2 on:** October 26, 2011, 04:01:38 PM »

Is this a new barrel or an older barrel? How did it shoot before the o-rings and trigger work? Are you using open sights or optics?
Give us a little more info and we'll try to help.

Spanky

Bull Nutria · « **Reply #3 on:** October 26, 2011, 04:17:28 PM »

it is a new micro groove barrel with a new 3x9 "bone collector" Bushnell scope with leupold rings, every thing loctited because it came from factory with loose picatinny rail!
shot terrible before i put the o rings in-- that is why i put them in. Any suggestions will be appreciated. i have read the stickies, have shot white box win 240 gr , hornady 225 gr , 180 gr REm all factory, lots of 225 gr horn. reloads no luck. best was white box win with a 2inch group at 50 yds once!!
Bull

tacklebury · « **Reply #4 on:** October 26, 2011, 04:43:10 PM »

Perhaps you should double check your load and you might be getting into an overpressure situation with some of those. The load notes at Hornady for the FTX bullet in .44 mag rifles with Alliant 2400 is maxed out red at 14.8 gr. The start is 13.4 gr. of 2400 and you should begin there. With such a narrow range, of 1.4 gr. margin, it makes me believe Hornady had some pressure spiking and this could be why you are having issues with that particular load.
http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/ftx_load_data/44RemMagFTXRifle.pdf

Secondly, I find it is usually best to attempt to get one bullet and powder combination going at once. If I were you I'd start with proper grain charges of 2400 and do a ladder in 0.1 gr. increments from 13.4 to 14.4. Make 5 bullets of each increment and two to three starting group level for fouling. Shoot each set with at least 5-10 minutes between groups and collect data. Chances are you will find one or two sets that worked best. I then would make a .05gr increment set just above and below those "sweet" spots and do the same again. The groups that are the best from this final set are the best your barrel and gun will typically do with a given powder. Hope this helps some, but I'd really try to use the correct charge levels per load notes with the FTX's.

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #5 on:** October 26, 2011, 04:47:29 PM »

I had one that shot 1-1/2" at 100 yd. out of the box with Winchester 240 gr. soft point factory ammo.

Bull Nutria · « **Reply #6 on:** October 27, 2011, 02:15:52 AM »

Tacklebury,
I submit that you are mistaken. Hornady lists no data that I know of for the 265g FTX in 44 mag!! I used data form Lymans 49th manual for a 265 g jacketed bullet. which starts at 16.5 g and maxes at 18.3g of 2400. No signs of higher pressure were noted on spent 44mag cases. Terrible groups were obvious! except for the starting load of 16.5 g. I am really hoping that this a repeatable group. however no good groups have been repeatable withthis rifle with any ammo!!
the devil rifle is a problem child perhaps poor quality control at manufacturer. If this rifle does not start grouping i plan to send it back under waranty.
Bull

Stan in SC · « **Reply #7 on:** October 27, 2011, 04:17:34 AM »

I tried three different Handis in .44 magnum.Tried all of the FAQ suggestions on rifle mods and loads.I NEVER could get one of the Handis in .44 magnum to shoot accurately.I sold all three and stick with the 45/70.The best one of them all.

Stan in SC

jloehm · « **Reply #8 on:** October 27, 2011, 04:43:14 AM »

Which cannelure are you crimping in? The 265 ftx is designed for the .444, and is a LONG bullet. That is why there is no loading data for it in .44 magnum. 1st groove allows more empty case space than normal 265 gr. .44 bullets. The farthest cannelure will really compress the case space (again LONG bullet.) I guess what I'm saying is that you can't just use 265 gr. jacketed bullet data with this projectile! It is a different animal. Have you tried the xtp's? H110? I have the same barrel and never found a load with 2400 that it liked.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 27, 2011, 04:44:29 AM »

When you remounted the scope rail did you clean the screw hole to the bottom with a pick?
Did you verify that each rail screw would not bottom out when tightening down the rail?
Did you verify the rail sat properly upon the barrel (ie, curve perfectly fit the radius, or just a tad of outer edge contact, not middle contact first)?
Do you KNOW that scope works on a proven rifle?
Is the latch contact good on the shelf?
Is the latch and shelf clean and dry?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** October 27, 2011, 04:45:05 AM »

The 265gr FTX at 1.038" is too long to stabilize in the 1:38" twist at 44mag velocities.

Tim

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

Bull Nutria · « **Reply #11 on:** October 27, 2011, 08:26:51 AM »

tim,

what bullet will stabilize in this barrel, the 225 FTX would not, 180 gr Rem JSP and the WIn 240 JSP did not . why is this such a problem? i have read many posts that this is very common with the 44mag handis. should i get rid of it or send it back to H&R, do you have any suggestions. i would be up the creek if i didn't reload!!

I have a bad taste in my mouth!

I have never had such a bad experience with a new rifle!!

Bull

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** October 27, 2011, 08:37:22 AM »

If it won't shoot 2" or less 3-shot groups at 100yds with factory ammo, it may need to go back to H&R for repair, I'd make sure you're covering all the details in the Handi Basics sticky first tho, oil on the latch or shelf alone can cause terrible accuracy, if you've covered those already, call em, let em know what's happening, ask for a return shipping label to cover shipping and send it in for repair.

http://www.hr1871.com/support/repairs.asp

FWIW, the 225gr FTX Leverevolution ammo shot excellent in my 2007 44mag, it didn't shoot as good in my 2011 44mag tho, but the 240gr Hornady ammo did as did the 240gr XTP/H110 handloads. It shoots 275gr Hawk bullets even better as a 444 Marlin now tho.

Tim

Bull Nutria · « **Reply #13 on:** October 28, 2011, 03:14:52 AM »

went to range after cleaning rifle barrel wiped all oil of internals, tightened forend down tight on 2 -O rings.
shot at 50 yds 3 shot groups

1- 16.5 g 2400,265 FTX-- 1.2 inch group

2- 16.8g 2400, 265 FTX--1.2 in group

3-17.1 g 2400, 265 g FTX 1.0 inch group

4 at 100yds 16.5 g 2400, 265 g FTX 3.5 inch group low.

I am much happier with these reloads and groups after my ordeal with this little devil rifle. I plan to try some 17.1g
of 2400 soon at 100yds. the challenge continues!

Stay tuned,

Bull

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 28, 2011, 03:24:21 AM »

I'd take a 1" group anyday!

Sounds like you're on track!

Instead of "O" rings that can compress, why don't you give one of those refrigerator magnets a try. They basically serve the same purpose and you can trim it to the size you want and place it just ahead or behind the take down screw, and in my opinion work far better than the "O" ring.

Spanky · « **Reply #15 on:** October 28, 2011, 05:06:18 AM »

I'm also shooting 240gr. XTP's over H110 with great accuracy.

Spanky

cwlongshot · « **Reply #16 on:** October 28, 2011, 06:21:45 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on October 27, 2011, 04:45:05 AM

The 265gr FTX at 1.038" is too long to stabilize in the 1:38" twist at 44mag velocities.

Tim

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

While I agree its NOT optimal, and a 1:20 would be preferred.

I have five Marlins, so rifled, that have and continue put there bullets touching as far as I can see to shoot Them. I do this with various makers 300GR bullets. as well as the orig Hornady 265SP bullets from a 44 Mag.

Guys have been riding this horse since the sixties maybe earlier. I never came across the " limitation" personally.

As I said its not optimal by the "book" but sometimes things aren't. Also granted mine are but a tiny presentage of rifles so rifled. But I have not been hampered by this rifling rate.
CW

av-doctor · « **Reply #17 on:** October 28, 2011, 07:11:34 AM »

i'm using the 240 xtp over 20.5gr of 2400. i started at 16.0 the groups got better as i worked up so be patient and be realistic about your results the "devil" will let you know when you get it right

tacklebury · « **Reply #18 on:** October 28, 2011, 03:55:05 PM »

Sweet! WIll be a hot-lil she-devil soon.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** October 29, 2011, 04:22:26 AM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on October 28, 2011, 06:21:45 AM

Quote from: quickdtoo on October 27, 2011, 04:45:05 AM
The 265gr FTX at 1.038" is too long to stabilize in the 1:38" twist at 44mag velocities.

Tim

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

While I agree its NOT optimal, and a 1:20 would be preferred.

I have five Marlins, so rifled, that have and continue put there bullets touching as far as I can see to shoot Them. I do this with various makers 300GR bullets. as well as the orig Hornady 265SP bullets from a 44 Mag.

Guys have been riding this horse since the sixties maybe earlier. I never came across the " limitation" personally.

As I said its not optimal by the "book" but sometimes things aren't. Also granted mine are but a tiny presentage of rifles so rifled. But I have not been hampered by this rifling rate.
CW

There's a big difference in the length of the 265gr FTX and a 265gr SP/FP or 300gr FP and HP bullets, the 300gr XTP for instance is still only .827" long which is marginally stabilized. But from the OP's latest reply, it appears he's doing better, I didn't consider the light tip and forward cavity which makes the bullet effectively shorter.

Tim

cwlongshot · « **Reply #20 on:** October 29, 2011, 04:30:31 AM »

I agree Tim, it is longer OVERALL. But its like lipstick on a pig,

looks good but kinda meaningless overall. A bullets bearing surface is what makes the difference. My Hard Cast Truncated cone 300gr bullets have allot of bearing surface yet still shoot accurately from this twist rate. Of coarse this could not be possible where they improperly stabilized.

CW

ratdog · « **Reply #21 on:** November 01, 2011, 07:03:38 PM »

bull just curious did you slug the barrel if so what did you come up with.the same problems you are having i have had with my 357mag tried every thing in facts lost patients. would shoot 38's fair but once you step up to 357 groups open up bad .have you tried any 44 specials in your rifle?i sent my rifle back to remington they replaced the barrel .now waiting to get it back. getting it fit with a 44 barrel to. the 357 was driving me nuts my 357 hand gun shot better.

Bull Nutria · « **Reply #22 on:** November 02, 2011, 12:35:18 AM »

yes i did slug the barrel it was .431ish over size hence the terrible groups! I may send it back after hunting season. I got her grouping better with my reloads and am going to try some oversize cast bullets soon that may be the answer.
I sure hope you have better luck with your new 44 mag barrel than i did. Check out Blackoaks 100yd group with his 44mag handi on todays posts! I have shot 125 factory rds and 100+ reloads to get my best group to date and am not satisfied!
i did have a great fun doing this load work up, was a great enjoyable but expensive challenge!
Bull

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** November 02, 2011, 03:34:27 AM »

Unfortunately that's within SAAMI specs, the rifle spec is bigger than the pistol spec. $:-\$

Tim

Bull Nutria · « **Reply #24 on:** November 02, 2011, 09:16:40 AM »

Tim or anyone else,

do you have an explanation on why the great variability in accuracy in these 44mag handi rifles? Blackoak's drives tacks and mine would not drive fenceposts!!

is it poor quality control at factory or what?

Bull

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** November 02, 2011, 09:40:56 AM »

You could have a defective barrel, bad crown, poor rifling, it happens, and H&R will make it right if you take the time to make arrangements to send it in for repair, see the H&R repair page on their website. But I'll give you my honest opinion right up front, you have yet to mention you've made sure you've covered the basics, as I've mentioned before, oil on the latch or shelf will destroy any hope of accuracy from the get go, drying those parts is THE most common fix reported from H&R gunsmiths for accuracy issues. I have over forty H&R rifles including two 44 mags(2007 and 2010/11), they all have provided very acceptable hunting accuracy(2" or less @100yds, 3-shot groups with factory ammo), most right out of the box, some have needed a little forend tweaking to get under 1", but nothing has been required that most anyone can't do.

Best advice if you've addressed the basics is to take advantage of H&R's excellent service to get it shooting good.

Tim

http://www.hr1871.com/support/repairs.asp

Bull Nutria · « **Reply #26 on:** November 02, 2011, 11:46:19 AM »

Thanks Tim, for the advice, i have dried oil off the parts you mentioned and have followed the sticky recommendations, put in a couple of O-rings m, i don't rest hte barelon anything whe i shoot and i put my sandbag up againast the back of hte trigger guard, etc. I may just call up H&R and send it back for repair.

Why would you have 2 handi rifles in the same caliber? you must really be into handis if you have over 40!!

i have only 3 high powered rifles and can't shoot each of them enough, can't imagine shooting 40 different handis, sounds like you are having fun!

do you reload for them or just shoot factory ammo?

BTW, the sticky page is about the most comprehensive how to guide i have ever seen, you did a lot of work putting that together, thanks it is very useful.
Bull

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** November 03, 2011, 04:08:00 AM »

Quote from: Bull Nutria on November 02, 2011, 11:46:19 AM

Why would you have 2 handi rifles in the same caliber? you must really be into handis if you have over 40!!

I'm a Handiholic, why else!! If you think that's bad, I have six 45-70s(3 BCs, 2Handis and an Ultra) and two 30-30s(had 3 at one time)! I handload, but occasionally buy factory ammo just to see how it shoots.

Tim

av-doctor · « **Reply #28 on:** November 03, 2011, 07:09:53 AM »

Why have 2 the same caliber? because everyone is different. Question why are you using 2 o-rings i've never heard of using 2?Have you tried factory ftx ammo? how did it shoot?

Bull Nutria · « **Reply #29 on:** November 03, 2011, 09:27:04 AM »

I tried factory Hornady 225 gr FTX. 180 JSP REM, and 240g Win white box 240JSP. the white box win shot the best about 2in at 50 yds and 3inches at 100yds the other two were terrible groups. I also shot a bunch of reloads the best reload was a 265g FTX(i think this intended for a 444 marlin ) over 17.1 grains of 2400, best by far ---this shot 1 inch group at 50 yds. only 50 Of those to a box and i shot em all. am waiting on some oversize cast bullets i ordered to come in so i can test them. I think that long bearing surface on the 265 FTX helps stabilize the bullet in my wide bore. a 265 FP Hornady Interlock would work well i think but i don't know because i haven't tried them yet.

learned alot about Handis in the process! spent some bucks on ammo and reloads but i had a hell of a good time tinkering with my Devil rifle.

i read on this forum that 2 O-rings may help. so I had another one and put it in. cranked the screw down tight and shot my best groups to date. Stay tuned...

Bull

Bull