Author Topic: Trailboss w/lead bullet for my 45-70 Handi Rifle? (Read 4568 times)

MSP Ret · « **on:** October 29, 2011, 11:52:08 AM »

Hi guys, you probably know by now my favorite 45-70 load is a Hornady half jacket 350 grain FP ahead of 28.0 grains of 2400. That said, a few years ago I picked up a bunch of lead Postell design HP bullets (w/no gas checks and already lubed) with hopes of getting them to shoot with smokeless powder. That was not to happen, even keeping velocity down to reduce chances of leading I finally gave up after many tries but NO accuracy. Fast forward to a month or so ago, I thought about them again and picked up a can of Trailboss to try.
Tonight I weighed the bullets and was shocked, they go from 404 to 417 grains! I got them from another shooter and do not remember who for sure. I went through them and weighed each one and have them grouped into packages by the 1/10th of a grain. I then measured them and came up with somewhere between .457 and .458, I had hopes for .459 but they are what I have.
Any suggestions out there for a load of trailboss that might give me passable accuracy with thse bullets?...Thanks....<><....

jedman · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2011, 01:07:16 PM »

Andy, Try loading the Trail Boss to a level about 1/16 to 1/8" below where the bottom of the seated bullet is. I am experimenting with something similar and in my case thats where the accuracy really came together. Jedman

Dinny · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2011, 01:14:09 PM »

I get great accuracy from a Lyman 330gr cast HP and 11gr of TB. From my 28" barrel, velocity is right at 1000fps. I killed a starling with it at 65yds last year and a few raccoons expired from that same load too.

http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php

Thanks, Dinny

thejanitor · « **Reply #3 on:** October 29, 2011, 01:18:29 PM »

12 gr. of trail boss worked well for us with a 405 gr cast bullet. You could shoot it all day long and they were accurate in our Handis. Diameter will determine if they will shoot for you or not. Good luck they are fun. I thought they could cleanly take a deer out to 100 yds but this was just my thought we never tried it, but it was so accurate- I figured with proper placement it would punch right through both sides of the ribs on a broadside shot.
Have fun! The 45-70 is one of the most versatile handis once you learn how to use trailboss (along with your other full strength loads you already use).
thejanitor

ratdog · « **Reply #4 on:** October 29, 2011, 01:19:29 PM »

i have been shooting the lee 405 grn bullet 17 grns trail boss shoots good very little recoil i could shoot these all day.fun load

VT30-30 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 29, 2011, 01:27:37 PM »

I to have loaded 45-70s with 12 grains of Trail Boss as thejanitor has. All though I shot it out of my T/C Encore
it shot great. That old 405 sure makes a wack when it hits the backstop. And I always figured it would knock a
deer done within a 100 yards. Great load.

Steve

MSP Ret · « **Reply #6 on:** October 29, 2011, 01:42:32 PM »

Thanks for all the great info and loads guys. My load of 28 grains of 2400 behind a Hornady 350 grain bullet is very accurate and actually quite comfortable to shoot. I try to avoid max loadings in almost everything because it seems to me that the most accurate load is USUALLY less than the max load.....<><....

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 29, 2011, 02:00:24 PM »

I shoot 12.5 grains of Trail Boss with the 405's in my Contender. Very accurate and mild recoil. Trail Boss works well in every caliber that I reload - 45 Colt, 45-70, 38 Special and 32 H&R Magnum.

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 29, 2011, 04:17:05 PM »

Quote from: VT30-30 on October 29, 2011, 01:27:37 PM

I to have loaded 45-70s with 12 grains of Trail Boss as thejanitor has. All though I shot it out of my T/C Encore
it shot great. That old 405 sure makes a wack when it hits the backstop. And I always figured it would knock a
deer done within a 100 yards. Great load.

Steve

I've given this some thought also, and it seems there is very little discussion about using TB for any kind of serious big game load.

Reason being because even with a full case in the 45-70 and a 400 grain bullet traveling 1000+ fps it would surely do the job with shot placement at close range, but it still would only be a very marginal deer load, and when you have other powders that will shoot at a higher velocity and be pretty much as mild on the recoil as a full load of TB, it's not hard to figure out why it's not even considered a serious hunting load powder.

Plinking and small game, but definately not a deer load.

Dinny · « **Reply #9 on:** October 29, 2011, 04:33:16 PM »

Jimbo,
I too have thought long and hard about it. Here's my rational....What weight bullet and muzzle velocity did the early pioneers of our country kill all those bison with? I would think that bison are harder to kill than deer and 1100fps would work great.

405 at 1200-1500fps from a 45-70

http://www.chuckhawks.com/buffalo_cartridges.htm

Thanks, Dinny

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2011, 05:28:20 PM »

I'm not disputing it, but just pointing out that there isn't much written about taking deer with TB powder, and what is the most you can pack into a 45-70 case using a 405 grain cast bullet? You are limited to a low end of velocity, and you won't get 1500 fps with a 405 grain bullet using TB, where even using black powder you can achieve a higher velocity than with TB.

Why isn't it not used that much for taking deer?....I can only speculate, and that is because there are better choices, and bumping it up to 1500 fps with another powder that recoils like black powder loads it just makes more sense.

That said, I load with TB powder, but I also use IMR 4198 and RL7.
I hunt with the later and plink with the TB, and my loads run from 1200 to just under 1500 fps. I don't like a lot of recoil.

I have shot two fairly large hogs, not with the 45-70 but another 30 caliber rifle using TB and never found either hog. Probably just me, but I don't lose any using my standard loads.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 30, 2011, 03:28:03 AM »

I haven't seen any deer large enough that would be alive after a boiler room hit with a 405 going 1000 fps at 100 yards or less. I do agree that using a different powder is better only in the respect that you'll get a flatter trajectory.

BBF · « **Reply #12 on:** October 30, 2011, 03:28:47 AM »

Quote from: -Dinny on October 29, 2011, 04:33:16 PM

Jimbo,
I too have thought long and hard about it. Here's my rational....What weight bullet and muzzle velocity did the early pioneers of our country kill all those bison with? ........................

Weren't those bullets paper patched? Is so that was a much softer lead that would expand rather then the hard cast we use today.

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 30, 2011, 05:08:48 AM »

Anyone wanting to post up pictures of their deer taken using Trail Boss powder giving distance and load data, I'd be interested in seeing.

I'm sure someone will do it just to prove the point, but like I said, why use it when you have better choices?

Dinny · « **Reply #14 on:** October 30, 2011, 05:35:25 AM »

Quote from: Jimbo47 on October 30, 2011, 05:08:48 AM

Anyone wanting to post up pictures of their deer taken using Trail Boss powder giving distance and load data, I'd be interested in seeing.
I'm sure someone will do it just to prove the point, but like I said, why use it when you have better choices?

I knew it was gonna come down to this.

Now I'm gonna have to pay that $25 for a rifle deer tag.

45-70 with 11gr of TB behind a 330gr Lyman cast HP. I can show pics of raccoons right now, but that's just not the same.

Deer hunting is limited here since I'm an outsider, but I'll try to find somewhere to get a shot off at one.

Thanks, Dinny

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 30, 2011, 06:46:31 AM »

I'll be using 14.0 TB under a 300 grain hard cast this year, I'll let you know how it works out if I get a shot on a deer.

Spanky · « **Reply #16 on:** October 30, 2011, 08:52:56 AM »

Quote from: Jimbo47 on October 29, 2011, 04:17:05 PM

Quote from: VT30-30 on October 29, 2011, 01:27:37 PM
I to have loaded 45-70s with 12 grains of Trail Boss as thejanitor has. All though I shot it out of my T/C Encore
it shot great. That old 405 sure makes a wack when it hits the backstop. And I always figured it would knock a
deer done within a 100 yards. Great load.

Steve

I've given this some thought also, and it seems there is very little discussion about using TB for any kind of serious big game load.

Reason being because even with a full case in the 45-70 and a 400 grain bullet traveling 1000+ fps it would surely do the job with shot placement at close range, but it still would only be a very marginal deer load, and when you have other powders that will shoot at a higher velocity and be pretty much as mild on the recoil as a full load of TB, it's not hard to figure out why it's not even considered a serious hunting load powder.

Plinking and small game, but definately not a deer load.

A case full of Trail Boss and a 400gr. bullet will kill the hell out of any deer that walks. Ballistics numbers in some book don't mean a thing in the real world.

Spanky

gcrank1 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 30, 2011, 10:09:47 AM »

I second that, Spanky!
I made BP loads and chrono'd then against my full case of TB load; They are within 50fps of each other (average of 3 shots each). We have better stuff to use now? Might as well forget the old outdated 45-70 and go straight to the 30-06 then. I have both, and if I get a deer this year it will be with that 45-70 case full of TB, and the load wont be lacking.
H&R 45-70 UH now with Cin.lam. UV wood and an old El Paso Weaver 2.5X with the range reticule

.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2011, 01:19:28 PM »

Great stuff guys, excellent info and discussions. I hold to the theory that deer, bear, and buffalo (Bison) have not gotten any tougher over the last 100-150 years or so. I also believe a 45-70 loaded with a nice lead bullet ahead of either BP, one of it's equivilants, or TB will knock a deer just flat down dead with a good hit. I have always subscribed to less recoil and better shot placement. I disagree with the belief of some that a bigger faster magnum will make up for poor shot placement. I personally think a good TB load would be a fine deer getter for the thick woods where I hunt where 100 yards is a long shot....<><....

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #19 on:** October 30, 2011, 01:40:38 PM »

Quote from: -Dinny on October 29, 2011, 01:14:09 PM

I get great accuracy from a Lyman 330gr cast HP and 11gr of TB. From my 28" barrel, velocity is right at 1000fps. I killed a starling with it at 65yds last year and a few raccoons expired from that same load too.

http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php

Thanks, Dinny

Now that's the most over-calliber kill I have ever heard of. I usually use an airgun on starlings! Did you have the remains mounted?
Where did you get the Hornady half-jackets from? I need some.

Dinny · « **Reply #20 on:** October 30, 2011, 02:13:06 PM »

The starling was a target of opportunity. Since I made a clean shot with little damage to the breasts, I ate it.

JK, Dinny

BBF · « **Reply #21 on:** October 31, 2011, 08:30:22 AM »

Would you TB proponents use this powder for hunting elk hinds up to 100 yards?

gcrank1 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 31, 2011, 09:09:37 AM »

The proof, and answer to that, is in the ballistics and lengthy history of the 45-70 round.
A lead 405 gr. bullet at 1250fps (give or take), regardless of the powder, is the equivalent of the old US Army carbine load. It has accounted for what through the years? Just Google the history of it and find out, if you dont already know, because it is too much to rewrite here.
FWIW, It still amounts to placement more than caliber, given that the caliber is adequate for the game.

Ranch13 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 31, 2011, 10:47:53 AM »

Quote from: MSP Ret on October 29, 2011, 11:52:08 AM

Hi guys, you probably know by now my favorite 45-70 load is a Hornady half jacket FP ahead of 28.0 grains of 2400. That said, a few years ago I picked up a bunch of lead Postell design HP bullets (w/no gas checks and already lubed) with hopes of getting them to shoot with smokeless powder. That was not to happen, even keeping velocity down to reduce chances of leading I finally gave up after many tries but NO accuracy. Fast forward to a month or so ago, I thought about them again and picked up a can of Trailboss to try.
Tonight I weighed the bullets and was shocked, they go from 404 to 417 grains! I got them from another shooter and do not remember who for sure. I went through them and weighed each one and have them grouped into packages by the 1/10th of a grain. I then measured them and came up with somewhere between .457 and .458, I had hopes for .459 but they are what I have.
Any suggestions out there for a load of trailboss that might give me passable accuracy with thse bullets?...Thanks....<><....

Never saw a postell bullet that only weighed 404-417 grs, postells usually go in the 535 gr weight range.
With that much variation from the same mould and alloy and diameters, those bullets would likely be better melted down and start over.
That said you might want to try your 2400 with those bullets. I shoot trailboss in handgun cartridges with decent accuracy, but never got it to equal the accuracy of other powders that are more suitable for bigbore rifle cartridges, and I believe the problem comes mostly from the velocity being to low to stablize the bigbore bullets. The pressure is certainly there, but the velocity is only about 70% of blackpowder according to the data from Hogdons and one other source.
AA5744 or 4198 from hogdon or imr are both very good powders for cast bullets in the 45-70.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 31, 2011, 11:15:07 AM »

Ranch13, as I prev. posted, my back to back chrono'd velo was similar, BP to TB. I dont know why , Im doing nothing special, just getting all the TB in the case under the bullet that I can; sure isnt anything like only 70% of the BP load.
No stability problems detected, Im generally shooting 340s and 405s, with only a few 500s that I havent worked up yet so they may be different.
As always,
YMMV

Ranch13 · « **Reply #25 on:** October 31, 2011, 11:31:49 AM »

The most velocity you can get from a 405 gr bullet staying within Hogdons data is 1000 fps +-
Blackpowder at a 70 gr charge is going to hurl that bullet to 1300 fps or more.
500 gr bullets with a 70 gr charge of bp do 1200 fps ,but according to Hogdons the best they got a 485 gr bullet to do was 900 fps, and at that level had pegged the saami pressure specs.
TB does what it was designed to do quite well, but there are much better powders for the 45-70.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 31, 2011, 12:58:24 PM »

Doesnt Hodgden say you can load full to the bullet base?
Guess my chrono doesnt read right back to back for the BP or the TB loads???............whatever the info says, real world trumps all; works for me

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 31, 2011, 01:51:38 PM »

Quote

Doesnt Hodgden say you can load full to the bullet base?

Yes:

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

Ranch13 · « **Reply #28 on:** October 31, 2011, 02:33:27 PM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on October 31, 2011, 12:58:24 PM

Doesnt Hodgden say you can load full to the bullet base?
Guess my chrono doesnt read right back to back for the BP or the TB loads???............whatever the info says, real world trumps all; works for me

No they don't say that. Check their web data and this is what you'll find.

These data are intended for Springfield "Trapdoor", Rolling Block, and Antique Replicas. Max pressure, 28,000 CUP

Cartridge:	45-70 Government (Trapdoor Rifles)*
Load Type:	Rifle

Starting Loads

Maximum Loads

Bullet Weight (Gr.)

Manufacturer

Powder

Bullet Diam.

C.O.L.

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure

300 GR. CAST LFP

IMR

Trail Boss

.458"

2.465"

14.0

1199

19,400 CUP

16.5

1285

20,900 CUP

385 GR. CAST LFP

IMR

Trail Boss

.458"

2.505"

14.0

1075

19,400 CUP

16.0

1142

23,200 CUP

405 GR. CAST LFP

IMR

Trail Boss

.458"

2.540"

12.0

971

24,500 CUP

13.0

1007

25,600 CUP

485 GR. CAST LFP

IMR

Trail Boss

.458"

2.540"

8.0

699

17,100 CUP

10.0

804

23,300 CUP

thejanitor · « **Reply #29 on:** October 31, 2011, 02:51:12 PM »

Quote from: scatterbrain on October 31, 2011, 08:30:22 AM

Would you TB proponents use this powder for hunting elk hinds up to 100 yards?

Since I was the first one in this thread to say "take a deer out to 100 yds with proper placement" I would say probably not. A deer is all of 10 - 12 inches thick.... the 405 should pass through a rib to rib shot, and give a blood trail. On an Elk you may not get a total pass through and thus lose an animal due to lack of blood trail.... I am not sure since I have never killed an Elk. But I didn't suggest using my 12 gr load of TB on an elk.
If it would pass through I don't see a problem, simply because anything I have ever taken both lungs out on has been dead within 100 yds no matter what it was shot with. It comes back to shot placement, and I suppose tracking ability. thejanitor