Trailboss w/lead bullet for my 45-70 Handi Rifle?

[Doublebass73]

No they don't say that. Check their web data and this is what you'll find.

It doesn't say no here:

[gcrank1]

We are in the H&R Forum; Level 2 45-70 loads are accepted as safe in these.
Brent, I am not advocating 12.o of TB for elk, but I wouldnt hesitate to take a decent shot within range with my full case load and a 405 cast Lee bullet WHICH DUPLICATES THE US ARMY 45-70 CARBINE LOAD BALLISTICS in my carbine length H&R UH.

[Ranch13]

In doublebass's deal it says if there "is no data for your favorite cartridge" Well they have data for the 45-70 listed, and if you take note, they do not list trailboss data in any of the other 2 levels of 45-70 data on their website. So there it is, pressure tested data , exceed it at your own pleasure.
 Keep in mind that the burn rate of trailboss is between reddot and bullseye, its' a very fast powder. While it will work to some degree in the 45-70, there are a whole host of powders that work alot better...

[gcrank1]

I have a friend with a British pressure gun that has done some testing and his trials coincide with mine.
And the OP's question was in regard to using TB.

[Ranch13]

Well I have a friend that is in the ammunition business and he pressure tested some of the "internet" trailboss loads, his conclusion was they probably won't turn a gun to shrapnel, but they won't do it any good either.
 There's a reason why Hogdons doesn't list any trailboss loads in the two higher pressure 45-70 sections.......

[Spanky]

Well I have a friend that is in the ammunition business and he pressure tested some of the "internet" trailboss loads, his conclusion was they probably won't turn a gun to shrapnel, but they won't do it any good either.
 There's a reason why Hogdons doesn't list any trailboss loads in the two higher pressure 45-70 sections.......

 
Probably because you can't reach lever gun or Ruger loads with Trail Boss. A full case of TB is still a low pressure load.
 
 
 
Spanky

[gcrank1]

I followed the methodology from Hodgdon, referenced by Dblbass, and it works for me (and my friend with the pressure gun) just like they said.
Where did I go wrong?

[Ranch13]

The pressure gun tests with the "internet" loads also showed the pressure and velocity to be extremely irratic, with velocity having as much as 100 fps variation and pressures jumping 4000 psi from shot to shot.  Velocity while approaching standard velocity never quite made it , falling as much as 200 fps short.
Trailboss will work in the 45-70 velocities are quite low, and accuracy not real good, it serves a purpose, but is much better used as it was originally intended in handgun and the original WCF cartridges.  As my ammunition maker friend put it, "mousefart" loads.
There are a number of powders that work better for cast bullets in the 45-70.

[thejanitor]

Trail boss loads are VERY VERY accurate in my 45-70. So with pressure being so unstable I wonder how those bullets maintain such a tight little group at 100 yds... Hmm I better quit shooting it as soon as I can.     (If they happen to be compressing the powder heck yeah the pressure will be unstable... the burn rate goes out the window and pressure is off the charts...) But use it the way it is made to be used and it is a very good powder. Sorry but after reading on the powder I like what I am doing and given a chance if I happen to have the gun and load with when deer hunting I will shoot one with it, BUT as stated above by others there may be better choices, I just like the load and it is very accurate. I don't want to be in the middle of a taste great less filling issue, but it sure works good for me.
11-1-11
After re- reading my post it seems I may be sounding like a dink... I guess I am talking a min charge and you guys were speaking of the max end of things, Just took it kind of personal when it was led to that the 45-70 is not TB material, when I have enjoyed it and know how it works in my gun I just got a little miffed. Sorry guys. (just my opinions)   thejanitor

[gcrank1]

No worries here, you didnt come off like that at all. I am glad you seem as satisfied as I am  .

[Dinny]

I'll be posting all my worthless TB powder in the PIF soon....   It ain't worth a hoot!




Thanks, Dinny

[woodchukhntr]

I'll be posting all my worthless TB powder in the PIF soon....   It ain't worth a hoot!




Thanks, Dinny

Dinny,
I'll save you all the trouble and take it off your hands!

[Dinny]

While it will work to some degree in the 45-70, there are a whole host of powders that work alot better...

I've read this a few times here now so I'm not trying to single anyone out specifically. Can someone please list a powder that is better than TB for low velocity loads that does not require filler or the case to be turned skyward before it is fired?




Thanks, Dinny

[Ranch13]

Speaking from experience, unique,bludot, 2400 sr 4759, Imr 4227,4198,4895,3031. Forgot to add aa5744.

[bikerbeans]

At the beginning of summer I bought a can of TB to try in my 45-120.  I too have read the direction on Hodgdon's website regarding load development with TB, that is, start at 70% of a full case and work your way up to the most accurate load.  I also know that Hodgdon publishes data for TB and the 45-120.  Just to make sure, I called and talked directly to a Hodgdon technical rep. and verified that this loading advice applies to ALL cartridges including the ones that they have published TB data.  What I was told is you can load a rifle, or pistol for that matter, case to 100% full w/o a problem.  I will note that in the case of 45-120 with 525 grn postels that after about 93% or so of case capacity the TB loads start to chrony at lower velocities. 
 
I have never shot a deer with a 45-70, live in a shotgun/MZ only state, but I have shot a lot of 525 grn postels at less than 1,000 fps from my shorty 45-70.  This gun is more than minute of deer at 100 yards and the bullet is capable at 100 yards of tearing a big hole in 2 inches of oak barn siding (removed from the barn first  ) and continuing on it's merry way.  As previously noted, a low velocity bullet just brings the need to judge "holdover" into play a lot sooner but low velocity does not cancel the energy of a heavy lead slug.  Remington's 405 SPs factory ammo in a 22" 45-70 is in the low 1,200 fps range at the muzzle and I don't think anybody would question using that ammo on a deer or elk, so a TB load at the same velocity should work as well.
 
BB

[Jimbo47]

Been following this thread for a few days, and it rates up there for entertainment value, but I'd like to add that nobody ever said TB powder wouldn't be enough to kill a deer, but in fact the consensus has been that "there are better choices" and I'm pretty sure this would be agreed to by most serious deer hunters on this forum.
 
The rainbow effect of the projectile at longer range, and the possibility that deer don't always come out and stand broadside at exactly 100 yards is probably why a serious hunter would want something a little flatter shooting when they take to the woods no matter what you shoot with, and the 45-70 with the right powder will shoot flat out to 200 yards should you need it.
 
We could argue the point all day, and the bottom line always comes down to this, and I don't think anyone would argue the point, but when you only get to hunt deer but for a few weeks or days of the year, you want as much in your favor as possible within your control in order to be successful.
 
I've read many threads on this same forum by the same guys posting on this subject that have favorite deer loads and they post them when someone ask for load data (I've taken their advise on several occasions) on the 45-70 for a deer hunting load and TB usually isn't even mentioned, and the reason is just as I described above, and that is because there are better choices.
 
Don't take this wrong and flame me that I'm knocking TB because I'm not, and in fact I love the powder, but it is made for it's purpose and that is a low velocity, not beat you to death target/steel load for cowboy action shooting.
 
Personally folks can pack as much powder as they feel safe to pack into a case and shoot it above the published load specs, and that is their choice, but until the day comes that the manufacturer publishes, (not I talked to this or that guy) you can do it without any harmful effects either to accuracy or personal, then I will choose to not to do so, as I will with any powder. 

[gcrank1]

Fact: A given projectile fired at a given velocity, regardless of the propellant used, will have the same trajectory, shed that velocity at the same rate and have the same terminal ballistics.

[gcrank1]

FWIW, Ive done a fair bit of chrono'ing cast bullet 38-55 loads with Unique and IMR4227. There is considerable velocity variation depending on where the powder lays in the case; ie, back to the primer, in the middle or up against the bullet base. The most consistent, and highest velo's were with the powder back. Most competitors try to achieve consistent velocities. I refer you to 'The Moderen Schuetzen Rifle' by Schwartz and Dell for a wealth of information.

[Ranch13]

 Take a look at the trailboss data from Hogdons. The under 400 gr bullets derive sufficient velocity to be usable out to 100 yds or so, the 400 and over don't. The reason I say that is the velocity these trailboss loads generate at the muzzle is also in the transonic range, and that's where bullets start having stability problems and accuracy can go right out the window.
I've seen quite a few folks over the years scratch their heads and wonder at buffalo matches why they can't get a hit during a match with their trailboss loads, the bullet stability is the main culprit.
Trailboss works great in the pistol cartridges and rifle cartridges used for CAS shooting where the targets are large and close. If you're using your 45-70 for punching paper at 50 yds, or whackin gongs at the same distance its great stuff for trigger time work, but if you want to extend the range and look for small groups there are a number of better powders.
 Trailboss also generates pressures that equal those of other powders hurling the same bullets half again or more as fast. Once again, it's great stuff for doing what it was designed to do, but it's a far cry from the wonder powder that some try to make it out to be.

[gcrank1]

By that account and after reviewing MSPRet's (the OP) original post and followup comments and criteria it seems that TB can be a fine choice for him IF those bullets of his can work at all at their dia. and his barrel.
If those pressures mentioned are true (rather than, say, computer model generated) it may even be that the undersize bullets may be more likely to 'bump up' and fill the throat and bore and thus be more likely to shoot well. This is one of the reasons BP works well and that some people have been using fast burning shotgun powders in cast bullet loadings.
Like so much of this stuff, you gotta try it in your rifle and see if it is satisfactory for you. MSPRet, I wish you were close enough to me for us to get together and you try my loads; sure would save a lot of speculatin'.

[Ranch13]

If the bullets are to small and having to bump up, then chances are pretty good that leading will rear it's ugly head and then the quest for accuracy will be gone to pot.And then the question comes is it the powder or the bullets or both or neither....
 

[Ranch13]

Also when the subject of hunting with this or that load comes up a quick trip thru most any of the available online ballistic calculators will show,
that a 405 gr bullet lobbed at 1000 fps (hogdon trailboss data maximum load) will be slowed down to 900 fps at 1000 yds and will have dropped nearly 9 inches from a 50 yd zero.Contrast that with the same 405 gr bullet doing 1300 ( pick about any other powder from hogdons data) and at 100 yds it will still be doing about 1100 fps and only dropped a bit under 6 inches from a 50 yd zero.
With that sort of data to think about and mull over it gets pretty easy to figure the faster loads make placing a bullet into the kill zone at 100 yds a bit more certain than with something that starts out so slow in the first place.

[gcrank1]

Mine TB loads still go about 1250ish, guess Im right in the ballpark  , good to know.

[Jimbo47]

And there are those who bring up a history lesson in that our ancestors used to use those slow bullets to kill buffalo and whatnot, but the fact is also they used paper patched and soft lead and not the hard cast that we do today, thus it didn't take as much velocity to flatten that bullet on impact.
 
That said they didn't always have a one shot, one kill either, and on open plains they had time for a few follow up shots if needed.
 
This reminds me of other threads of my bullet is better than your bullet, and my bullet will kill the animal dead faster than yours will.    
 
Still, lots of opinions but there is some good info to be had!

[Ranch13]

Mine TB loads still go about 1250ish, guess Im right in the ballpark  , good to know.

Details on that load, and targets would be an interesting thing to see...

[gcrank1]

My load methodology is in the above posts, easily duplicated by anyone who want to try it. About the only thing perhaps not mentioned is to use as large a dia. bullet as fits comfortably into the fully fire-formed case mouth and my alloy is basically no harder than WWts with a dash of tin. Whats important to me is that it works for me. Ive always said, YMMV. What works for you after your trials is what is important to you, but I know you knew that already  .
Ive really been more interested in answering the OP's original question.

[Ranch13]

Thats what I thought...

[bikerbeans]

Hodgdon's website data for TB and a 405 grain cast bullet is:
 
 

405 GR. CAST LFP

IMR

Trail Boss

.458"

2.540"

12.0

971

24,500 CUP

13.0

1007

25,600 CUP

The maximum published load data is only about a 65% load density which is less than hodgdon's published TB loading information start point of 70%.  In this particular instance it would appear the pressure restrictions of using any powder in a late 1800's BPCR rule out over Hodgdon's normal TB load development info.  A 405 grain cast slug over a 90 to 100 percent load density charge of TB will yield the previously mentioned velocity of mid 1,200 FPS.  The same methodology in a 45-120 case will add another 100 to 200 fps to the same 405 grain slug.
 
BB

[Swampman]

Trailboss....an answer to a question that was never asked.  We already had Unique.

[BBF]

Speaking from experience, unique,bludot, 2400 sr 4759, Imr 4227,4198,4895,3031. Forgot to add aa5744.

   Yep, found out this as well for most of them. I don't have 4227 or AA 5744.   28 gr of Blue Dot for a 405 gr Lee worked real good for me.