Author Topic: Hunting with Cast: 7.62x54r vrs. .44 Mag?  (Read 1706 times)

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Offline flmason

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Hunting with Cast: 7.62x54r vrs. .44 Mag?
« on: October 31, 2011, 03:41:16 PM »
Hi All,
    Was reading C.E. Harris's article, "Cast Bullet Loads for Military Rifles":

http://home.comcast.net/~gavinsw/guns/castbulletmilitaryrifle.pdf

Have to admit, having handloaded a couple of decades ago, the thought of just having to have some 2400 around that I can use in Shotgun, Milsurp, and hopefully a .44 again in the future, was an attractive idea.

Haven't picked up a reloading manual yet. Have come very close to having to move into the car as of late, LOL! But looking ahead, I'm having a hard time seeing much advantage to these rifle loads vrs. a medium to strong .44 magnum load at practical distances. (Have to admit, I've never hunted anywhere where I could see 100 yards away, let alone take that shot.)

Seems to me a load like 20 grains of 2400 under a 240 Kieth type would be just as effective if not moreso out to 100 yards and be a lot easier to carry.

Is my intuition completely off here?

Offline geezerbiker

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Re: Hunting with Cast: 7.62x54r vrs. .44 Mag?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2011, 08:16:45 PM »
I don't see why you couldn't hunt with Ed's load data in the 7.62x54R or the .44 mag.  People were hunting with lead bullets long before we came along...

I remember reading Ed's post on the old Fidonet network years before the internet was a household word...  I found this info to work great in 7.7x58 Arisiaka and my various .30 caliber rifles.

Tony

Offline flmason

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Re: Hunting with Cast: 7.62x54r vrs. .44 Mag?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2011, 07:26:24 PM »
I don't see why you couldn't hunt with Ed's load data in the 7.62x54R or the .44 mag.  People were hunting with lead bullets long before we came along...

I remember reading Ed's post on the old Fidonet network years before the internet was a household word...  I found this info to work great in 7.7x58 Arisiaka and my various .30 caliber rifles.

Tony

Oh, no doubt. Lead round ball ammo preceeded all of this.

The point was, a say 150-200 grain 7.62 bullet out of a rifle at approximately magnum handgun velocities doesn't seem to much better/worse than a 240 gr. Kieth type out of a handgun... without all the extra gun. So why bother. Especially when 110 gr. .30 Cal. M1 Carbine was always considered a poor hunting round. Granted it's down around 110 gr.

I suppose there is some argument for better BC and thus flatter shooting, etc. And of course if you want to gas check or paper patch, you can get more velocity.

But for practical purposes where 200 yard shots aren't common, the thought was, "Why bother with a rifle when a revolver with do?"

Given the velocities in Ed's article, seems like a reasonable lament.

Offline Mikey

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Re: Hunting with Cast: 7.62x54r vrs. .44 Mag?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2011, 12:42:21 AM »
My old Lyman manual shows a 213 gn cast slug from the Mosin to clock around 2000+ ft/sec, which is one hay of a lot better than a 44 mag at 12-1400'/sec, in my opinion, although if you are a good enough shooter to place a 44 cal slug at 200 yds then it really doesn't matter.  However, if I had the option I would load for the Mosin and carry the 44 for closer ranges. 

Offline flmason

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Re: Hunting with Cast: 7.62x54r vrs. .44 Mag?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2011, 03:15:31 PM »
My old Lyman manual shows a 213 gn cast slug from the Mosin to clock around 2000+ ft/sec, which is one hay of a lot better than a 44 mag at 12-1400'/sec, in my opinion, although if you are a good enough shooter to place a 44 cal slug at 200 yds then it really doesn't matter.  However, if I had the option I would load for the Mosin and carry the 44 for closer ranges.

At your quoted numbers (though I haven't done the momentum and energy calcs) I'd say you're right.

What I was thinking is that C.E. Harris' article mentions keeping things below 1800 fps. So the thinking was... 240 grain Keith type at 1600 vrs. 160 grain spitzer at 1800... other than better trajectory... not sure there's enough difference to justify using a rifle sized arm.

If memory serves me correct, M1 Carbine was 110 grains at 1800 fps, and it was considered serious flop for hunting.

Granted, if you actually hunt... and get close... good shot placement, anything should work. After all arrows work.

Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: Hunting with Cast: 7.62x54r vrs. .44 Mag?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2011, 06:12:33 PM »
A cast 180 -210 gr FP bullet, especially if cast of a softer malleable alloy and mildly HP'd pushed to 1900 - 1950 fps out of the 7.62x54R with a proper load (no offense to Harris but his loads were not meant for hunting) pretty much equals the 30-30 and is effective to 200 yards. The rifle is also going to be more accurate to shoot than the 44 magnum handgun.  That pretty much trumps the .44 magnum load.  I base this on hunting experience with both using cast bullets to hunt with, not someone else's article.
 
Larry Gibson

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Re: Hunting with Cast: 7.62x54r vrs. .44 Mag?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2011, 03:33:52 AM »
Why does the .44 have to be a pistol? Why not a short lever carbine?

Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: Hunting with Cast: 7.62x54r vrs. .44 Mag?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2011, 06:54:09 AM »
Why does the .44 have to be a pistol? Why not a short lever carbine?

Doesn't have to be but the OPs "easier to carry" when referencing the 44 magnum led me to believe he was talking about a hand gun.
 
Larry Gibson

Offline flmason

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Re: Hunting with Cast: 7.62x54r vrs. .44 Mag?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2011, 05:49:33 PM »
A cast 180 -210 gr FP bullet, especially if cast of a softer malleable alloy and mildly HP'd pushed to 1900 - 1950 fps out of the 7.62x54R with a proper load (no offense to Harris but his loads were not meant for hunting) pretty much equals the 30-30 and is effective to 200 yards. The rifle is also going to be more accurate to shoot than the 44 magnum handgun.  That pretty much trumps the .44 magnum load.  I base this on hunting experience with both using cast bullets to hunt with, not someone else's article.
 
Larry Gibson

Yes, was very much considering my Super Blackhawk with typical Kieth type SWC vrs. the C.E. Harris velocities for the 16 gr. to 20 gr. 2400 loadings. Since I've never hunted anywhere that wasn't forest, shoots over 100 yards have never presented themselves for me. So was thinking that ultimately a Super Redhawk in .454 or a Smith .460 would be effective as effective. Granted .460 is significantly more powerful than .44 mag. I think Smith even claims .460 encroaches on 30-30 territory and has a point blank range from 0 to 200 yards?

True enough, I have much more shooting experience than hunting experience, so I'm not really qualified to comment on what *does* work empirically on live game.  Trying to learn from those with more experience than myself. :)Of course, given that arrows "work" I'm always open to the idea that if one wants to learn how to hunt (vrs. snipe) then just about any reasonable centerfire rifle loading is good enough. But at the same time, "One shot clean kill" is the philosophy I read of when young, and pretty much would want to hold to, unless I literally were starving.

Yes, the idea that flat point might be better for hunting than spire point has crossed my mind at this point.

Can a hard cast lead alloy. Say Lee #2 or even Linotype go 1900 without issues? (Still seems 1000 fps. short of "real" rifle velocities though.) Or are gas checks / patching required at that point?