Author Topic: Lincoln was our best leader  (Read 8651 times)

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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2012, 04:29:15 AM »
Should have happened. The South would be a better country than what we now have.
 
Lincoln was a criminal, the worst mass murderer in American history. And included in that mass murder was the Constitution.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2012, 01:34:26 PM »
Lincoln was the best. The best as violating the constitution and killing his fellow Americans. 500,000 Americans lost their lives because of him. He was the best all right.......... ::)

I think the newest tally is over 700,000 lost their lives in the Civil War
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/science/civil-war-toll-up-by-20-percent-in-new-estimate.html?pagewanted=all
Of course Lincoln and the northern army also freed over 3 million slaves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_Proclamation
and Lincoln preserved representative democracy.
 
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2012, 02:16:52 PM »
Lincoln was the best. The best as violating the constitution and killing his fellow Americans. 500,000 Americans lost their lives because of him. He was the best all right.......... ::)

I think the newest tally is over 700,000 lost their lives in the Civil War
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/science/civil-war-toll-up-by-20-percent-in-new-estimate.html?pagewanted=all
Of course Lincoln and the northern army also free over 3 million slaves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_Proclamation

Of course, that doesn't count in the 1.25 million "excess" deaths in the civilian population during the years of the war, almost all of which were in the South.  All to keep the revenue flowing into the federal coffers, to be used mostly to prop up northern industry and finance.  See:


"Under Federal Legislation, the exports of the South have been the basis of the Federal Revenue. Virginia, the two Carolina's, and Georgia, may be said to defray three fourths of the annual expense of supporting the Federal Government; and of this great sum, annually furnished by them, nothing or next to nothing is returned to them, in the shape of Government expenditures. that expenditure flows i
n an opposite direction -- it flows north, in one uniform, uninterrupted and perennial stream. This is the reason why wealth disappears from the south and rises up in the north. Federal Legislation does this." - Senator Thomas Hart Benton
Thomas Hart Benton (March 14, 1782 – April 10, 1858), nicknamed "Old Bullion", was a U.S. Senator from Missouri and a staunch advocate of westward expansion of the United States. He served in the Senate from 1821 to 1851, becoming the first member of that body to serve five terms. architect and champion of westward expansion by the United States, a cause that became known as Manifest Destiny.


Slavery was dying out anyway.  All other nations that ended slavery did it without killing off two million people.  We would have done the same if given another 20 or 30 years.  But Abe had to pay off northern industry.
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2012, 08:14:22 AM »
"Under Federal Legislation, the exports of the South have been the basis of the Federal Revenue. Virginia, the two Carolina's, and Georgia, may be said to defray three fourths of the annual expense of supporting the Federal Government; and
of this great sum, annually furnished by them, nothing or next to nothing is returned to them, in the shape of Government expenditures and that expenditure flows in an opposite direction -- it flows north, in one uniform, uninterrupted and perennial stream.

This is the reason why wealth disappears from the south and rises up in the north. Federal Legislation does this." - Senator Thomas Hart Benton


Thomas Hart Benton (March 14, 1782 – April 10, 1858), nicknamed "Old Bullion", was a U.S. Senator from Missouri and a staunch advocate of westward expansion of the United States. He served in the Senate from 1821 to 1851, becoming the first member of that body to serve five terms. Architect and champion of westward expansion by the United States, a cause that became known as Manifest Destiny.


And, from the GA Dec. of Secession

The material prosperity of the North was greatly dependent on the Federal Government; that of the the South not at all. In the first years of the Republic the navigating, commercial, and manufacturing interests of the North began to seek profit and aggrandizement at the expense of the agricultural interests. Even the owners of fishing smacks sought and obtained bounties for pursuing their own business (which yet continue), and $500,000 is now paid them annually out of the Treasury. The navigating interests begged for protection against foreign shipbuilders and against competition in the coasting trade. Congress granted both requests, and by prohibitory acts gave an absolute monopoly of this business to each of their interests, which they enjoy without diminution to this day. Not content with these great and unjust advantages, they have sought to throw the legitimate burden of their business as much as possible upon the public; they have succeeded in throwing the cost of light-houses, buoys, and the maintenance of their seamen upon the Treasury, and the Government now pays above $2,000,000 annually for the support of these objects. Theses interests, in connection with the commercial and manufacturing classes, have also succeeded, by means of subventions to mail steamers and the reduction in postage, in relieving their business from the payment of about $7,000,000 annually, throwing it upon the public Treasury under the name of postal deficiency. The manufacturing interests entered into the same struggle early, and has clamored steadily for Government bounties and special favors. This interest was confined mainly to the Eastern and Middle non-slave-holding States. Wielding these great States it held great power and influence, and its demands were in full proportion to its power. The manufacturers and miners wisely based their demands upon special facts and reasons rather than upon general principles, and thereby mollified much of the opposition of the opposing interest. They pleaded in their favor the infancy of their business in this country, the scarcity of labor and capital, the hostile legislation of other countries toward them, the great necessity of their fabrics in the time of war, and the necessity of high duties to pay the debt incurred in our war for independence. These reasons prevailed, and they received for many years enormous bounties by the general acquiescence of the whole country.

With the south drained as it was to support the industry of the north, as we see in the above contemporary comments, there was not the capital to industrialize on their own.

This comment is also interesting:

"Each state, ratifying the Constitution, is considered a sovereign body, independent of others and only to be bound by its own voluntary act." James Madison

Your ob't & etc,
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2012, 05:05:54 AM »
Subdjoe, you said:  "Slavery was dying out anyway.  All other nations that ended slavery did it without killing off two million people.  We would have done the same if given another 20 or 30 years.  But Abe had to pay off northern industry."
 
How long would you and your family submit to slavery before you resorted to violence?
 
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Offline lgm270

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2012, 03:56:20 PM »
I grew up as a great admirer of Lincoln, having obtained, among other things, the 8 Vol. Rutgers University collection of all of his know writings and speeches.   Lincoln was an extraordinary writer and speaker.  His prose is wonderful.

But...he did more to destroy the constitution and empower an all powerful Leviathan of a Federal Government that would roll over everything than any other president.

If Lincoln had not waged the Civil War and gotten 500,000 whites killed in the process, the US would not have embarked on the imperialistic adventure of the Spainish American War of 1898 or either WW1 or WW2. 


The Southern states would have been a check on Northern corporate imperialism.

I do not think that freeing the slaves was  worth 500,000 white lives.  Moreover, I think much of the concern for the slaves is just window dressing. From 1841 until 1900, one-half of the white population of Ireland was killed off or migrated out under corrupt British imperialistic rule.  Negro slave populations always increased, never decreased.  Slaves were never targeted for genocide like the Irish were.

Funny how people whose hearts bled for Negros had not a tear for several million whites who were starved off in Ireland during this same time period.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2012, 04:00:09 PM »
Jefferson was our best leader.  He remains so...
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2012, 06:40:03 AM »
How did seven states leaving "destroy the union?"they took the cheap raw materials the north needed to make money , and would have stopped paying the debt incured in the war of 1812.   Seems like the federal government kept working without those members in Congress.  Railroads kept running.  Post office kept working.  Army and Navy were still there.  The Constitution still applied to the states still in the union.  I'm not seeing anything "destroyed" any more than a family is "destroyed" if someone moves out of the house.If the bread winner leaves it does effect the others  ;)  

Was the relationship between NY and OH changed in any way?  How about VT and PA?  No?  CA and DE maybe?  No, all those relationships stayed the same. 

The anti-constitutionalist always bray about the union being "destroyed" but fail to show any evidence that, other than getting smaller by seven states, anything at all changed.  Well...not as much money to finance northern infrastructure was going into the federal treasury, is that maybe what "destroyed" the union?

Nor have any of the war-mongering Lincoln apologists shown anywhere in the Constitution a clause that prohibits a state from leaving.  Remember, the Constitution deals with the federal government, not the states, except for a very few things prohibited to the states.  Leaving the union is not one of the things prohibited.
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Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2012, 05:52:43 PM »
The war allowed the slaves to be freed.
Not the defeat of the South, they had not lost yet but the war, and all that exists during one, helped pass the Amendment that freed the slaves.

Had the Amendment not passed before the end of the war, Lincoln could not Constitutionally have stopped Union States from imposing it if they so desired.

Was he the best leader, well that is a matter of opinion for or against, after Teddy Roosevelt, with the possible exception of Truman, the best were middling at best.




Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2012, 02:32:43 AM »
If, like William Wilberforce, he had seen to ending slavery through the legislature without tearing the country apart and setting the stage for Progressivism, upending states rights I would not doubt have reason to call him a great president. 


lc

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2012, 05:05:22 PM »
If, like William Wilberforce, he had seen to ending slavery through the legislature without tearing the country apart and setting the stage for Progressivism, upending states rights I would not doubt have reason to call him a great president. 
lc

Multiply the number killed via Wilberforce's method by the number of slaves states and the size of the population, there would have been a lot of dead slaves and slavery would still exist.
Idealistic pipe-dream.

the 1832 slave revolt in Jamaica convinced government ministers that abolition was essential to avoid further rebellion. In 1833, Wilberforce's health declined further and he suffered a severe attack of influenza from which he never fully recovered. He made a final anti-slavery speech in April 1833 at a public meeting in Maidstone, Kent. The following month, the Whig government introduced the Bill for the Abolition of Slavery, formally saluting Wilberforce in the process. On 26 July 1833, Wilberforce heard of government concessions that guaranteed the passing of the Bill for the Abolition of Slavery.
Suppression and death toll
The rebellion was suppressed with relative ease and little blood shed by British forces, under the control of Sir Willoughby Cotton. The reaction of the Jamaican Government and plantocracy was far more brutal. Approximately five hundred slaves were killed in total: 207 during the revolt and somewhere in the range between 310 and 340 slaves were killed through "various forms of judicial executions" after the rebellion was concluded, at times, for quite minor offences (one recorded execution indicates the crime being the theft of a pig; another, a cow).


An 1853 account by Henry Bleby described how three or four simultaneous executions were commonly observed; bodies would be allowed to pile up until workhouse negroes carted the bodies away at night and bury them in mass graves outside town.

Only 14 whites were, however, killed by armed slave battalions during the course of the rebellion, which left property damage estimated in the Jamaican Assembly summary report in March 1832 at £ 1,154,589 (equaling roughly £52,000,000 in modern terms).Many missionaries came under suspicion by the planters. Some, such as William Knibb, were arrested but later released. Groups of white colonials destroyed chapels that housed slave congregations

Offline wncchester

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2012, 01:00:40 PM »
"Maybe true and maybe not totally true...sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory."
 
It wasn't a conspiracy, that implies a group plan and it wasn't needed.  The efforts and goals of the North's wealthy to politically control the South's economy was simply a well understood and obvious understanding amongst northern industrailists. 
 
"There was nothing stopping the South from starting there own textile and shoe industries, or whatever to utilize their resources; and they had a good handle on the labor market.. "
 
Well, there sorta was but the South was slowly doing so anyway.  Sadly, the dominate "labor market", black and white, wasn't qualified to man those start-up industries at that time nor did the South have the loose funds to make industrial changes rapidly.  That made labor THE driving force for the South to escape irrational Union tax policies specifically designed to suppress southern economic expansion.   (Back then the truly wealthy did control the Republican party, today the truly wealthy control the Democrat party.)
 
"Freedom" is good, certainly so in theory. But at that time in history it wasn't all it might have appeared for most of the suddenly freed blacks.  Without the means to support themselves, whites had nothing to feed most of their labor force.  Much of the homes and livestock, both food stocks and plow horses, that had previously made subsistance farming possible was stolen by blue suiters and carpet baggers so hordes of both whites and blacks were wandering souls without food or shelter.  A lot of southern whites and an even larger number of blacks died from the effects of hunger and exposure after the sudden end of the old ways.  And, where possible, a great many of the newly freed blacks actually choose to stay and keep on working right where they were (without pay because there was no way to pay anyone at all) when there was some hope that they and their families might survive there but not on the barren roads going north.  Many people, black and white, resorted to "share cropper" farming by living in shantys and farming whatever crops they could produce.
 
Those were some hard years in the South and much of it was due to pure malice from the ruling Union forces.  It was the excesses of those years of military occupation following 1865 that made the South hate the North so bitterly, not the war itself. 
 
It's a moot question if Lincoln would have made things any different in
Reconstruction.  Or, considering the attitude of the DC politicians, if he could have had any effect at all.
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2012, 01:55:37 PM »
I didn't read thru all the responses, because it's an argument that has no end.  We all have our opinions.  Mine is that Lincoln was the worst thing that ever happened to the nation.  So many lives lost just to create a country where entitlements are expected and wont be done without.  Don't you see that almost all of the descendants believe in their hearts that we owe them everything they can take, no matter that the present generation had nothing to do with it.  Lincoln was the beginning of our end.     

Offline oldrifter

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2012, 11:06:49 AM »
I agree with Mike.
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Offline Dee

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2012, 11:23:54 AM »
Myself also. Lincoln was the "ultimate socialist", which ended "States Rights".
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Offline gypsyman

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2013, 02:45:28 AM »
Agree totally with the opinion that Lincoln became a martyr. History books want to paint as pretty picture of him,and Kennedy, so as to hold them up, and spread propaganda. Lincoln was a member of the American Colonization Society, which was set up to move blacks back to Liberia. He shredded the Constitution, to bad he was killed before carrying out the plan of relocating the slaves. gypsyman
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Offline wncchester

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2013, 04:14:09 AM »
"... had Grant's ultimatum to keep Carpetbaggers out of the region not been rescinded (by Linclon no less) things would have been restored--not stolen. And had Linclon not been shot by a royalist_ _ The Federal Reserve and bubble economics and bonded slavery replacing chattel slavery might not have happened."
 
I haven't a clue what you're trying to say.
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Offline greenmtnboy

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2013, 05:57:01 AM »
Yup the best for that time period .   He seemed to keep the country as one anyway  like it or not .
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Offline wncchester

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2013, 10:53:34 AM »
"(Lincoln) seemed to keep the country as one anyway like it or not."
 
Yeah. A 'great man' and a well fed and equipped army that was some 4-5 larger and supplied by an industrial base that was maybe 10 times greater seemed to do the trick in only 4 years.  Only some 2 years after the South was largely reduced to supplies they had taken from northern forces, they conceeded to the 'better' army and president.  ;)    ;D
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2013, 03:03:29 AM »
Yup the best for that time period .   He seemed to keep the country as one anyway  like it or not .
As one , really ? the seperation still exist today in some places govt. being one. Just look at the fact we have not had a budget for three years .
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Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2013, 03:05:43 AM »
I don't understand the idea of preservation of the Union to which many cling.

Thanks to TWONA this country was forever changed at every level.
While the union on paper was not altered, borders and names stayed the same, the spirit of the intent of the founding fathers was forever changed.
It takes very little thought to start to see where the union was altered. 
Yes.  It's the "same" but it is forever LESS than it should and could have been and all because of Mr. Lincoln's "big business" supporters.

lc

Offline scootrd

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2013, 03:27:34 AM »
Not even close  -  Washington was the greatest President.

I would also argue Jefferson's and FDR's (though most on this board would disagree about FDR)
Accomplishments places them above Lincolns as well.

JMHO

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Offline greenmtnboy

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2013, 03:04:17 PM »
Yup the best for that time period .   He seemed to keep the country as one anyway  like it or not .
As one , really ? the seperation still exist today in some places govt. being one. Just look at the fact we have not had a budget for three years .
Yup as one.  The United States of America.  The only seperation is the few who whine here and on other sites about how much better it could have been.  IFS and BUTS.  Just like the Hare and Fox.   He probably prevented the British from coming over and kickin Southern butt .   Now its the Budget???  Damn he was good.   
ROD

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2013, 09:48:33 PM »
Not even close  -  Washington was the greatest President.

I would also argue Jefferson's and FDR's (though most on this board would disagree about FDR)
Accomplishments places them above Lincolns as well.

JMHO

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Jefferson-- ROFL

FDR--ROFLMAO-- to the point of tears. What DEE said about Lincoln is probably correct about FDR. Eastern Europe probably were ecstatic about the way he gave the to the Soviet Union. BRILLIANT.

Offline scootrd

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2013, 04:55:58 AM »
Not even close  -  Washington was the greatest President.

I would also argue Jefferson's and FDR's (though most on this board would disagree about FDR)
Accomplishments places them above Lincolns as well.

JMHO

Semper Fi
Jefferson-- ROFL

FDR--ROFLMAO-- to the point of tears. What DEE said about Lincoln is probably correct about FDR. Eastern Europe probably were ecstatic about the way he gave the to the Soviet Union. BRILLIANT.


too each his own. But both Jefferson and FDR accomplished more in their time in office then Lincoln (whether you agree politically or not) .

Semper Fi.
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Offline us920669

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2013, 04:58:49 AM »
What does that ROF thing mean?
FDR was simply incompetent for the last year or so of his life.  IMO his biggest muff job was the Casablanca Conference - "Unconditional Surrender" - tied our hands diplomatically and got a whole lot of people killed.  He also failed to see Stalin for what he was.  The war was run by Marshall and the people under him.
As for Lincoln, he did a great job representing the people who put him in - banks and railroads.  Many generations of good Americans worshiped him, but it was him who turned the first shovel full of dirt for America's grave.

Offline us920669

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2013, 05:43:48 AM »
This is all true from a very macro perspective.  It's also true that the far-North was full of anti-slavery fanatics, and in the South, the younger generation was in the grip of a very prickly hot-head mentality.  If I had been alive then I think I would have voted for Bell and the Constitutional Union Party.

Offline scootrd

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2013, 06:26:11 AM »
Washington was the greatest

Jefferson above Lincoln.

Lincoln was  a proponent of Federal powers over state rights.

Jefferson was a staunch advocate for states Rights.

If it wasn't for Jefferson there quite possibly wouldn't have even been a Montana, Minnesota , North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, Nebraska, Iowa, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Arkansas, New Mexico, Texas, or Louisiana.
If not for him They would be owned by France.  Jefferson doubled the Size of the U.S. The Louisiana Purchase along with his staunch advocacy of states rights above Federal rights alone Trumps Lincoln in  greatest accomplishments.  - JMHO
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
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Offline wncchester

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Re: Lincoln was our best leader
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2013, 11:57:26 AM »
TM7 -  "Reckon so in this case, but various powers (assisted from across the Alantic) had weaponized the Constitution for the purpose of dividing up North America and profiting from a shooting war....one reason why Russia entered the melee on the side of the Union for 'balance of powers' reasons.."
 
Since you know all this shadowy stuff I've just got to ask, are those "various powers" the same ones who you believe manipulated G. Bush and Chaney to pull off the 9-11 attacks with our own military doing the dirty work?
 
 ;D
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