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Offline mdwest

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.45-70 on an SB1
« on: November 03, 2011, 01:45:49 AM »
I checked the FAQ's, and couldnt find anything on this...
 
Ive got a couple of old SB1 frames laying around (one manufactured in 1999, the other in 1982) doing nothing...
 
I originally had planned on putting pistol caliber barrels on them (one .357, and the other .44)..
 
but then thought that low pressure rifle barrels might be an option..
 
I noticed several pics of .30-.30's here that appear to have SB1 frames.. So I started googling chamber pressures and found that max chamber pressue on a .30-30 is 42,000 PSI.. and max pressure on a .357max is 40,000 PSI (something pretty commonly mounted on SB1's around here).. 2,000 additional PSI isnt that much more.. but would I be pushing the envelope here by mounting a .30-30 to one of these SB1's? (I would only be shooting factory ammo.. no "hot" handloads)..
 
While looking at the chamber pressure chart.. I noticed that .45-70 is only 28,000PSI (considerably lower than .44mag or .357max).. is PSI the only consideration here? would it be safe to mount a .45-70 bbl to an older SB1 frame? Again, I would only be shooting "factory" ammo (the stuff I could buy at Walmart, Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, etc..).. wouldnt be shooting handloads, buffalo bore, or anthing "hot"..
 
Thanks!
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Offline thejanitor

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 02:23:41 AM »
I thought the old Shikira was on an pre-SB1 cast frame, but it could have been a beefier 10 ga frame.
The scary part is if someone did load it with a hot load when you were not there to stop them or if it were sold on that frame. I may be all wet and someone may say it's ok, but I would not do it unless you can prove it was ok with documentation not just one of us telling you to go for it....   thejanitor
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Offline mdwest

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 02:56:41 AM »
absolutely understand where you are coming from..
 
maybe a better way to ask the question would be..
 
what is the typical PSI for "regular" .45-70 and .30-30 rounds (winchester white box, remington core-lokt, etc..)? And will the SB1 frame handle them?

I know the table says 28,000 and 42,000 respectively (http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm), but is this where modern factory rounds are normally loaded? and is chamber pressure the only factor? (is there anything else that needs to be considered, like age of the frame, CUP, etc..)
 
I do agree with what you said.. never sell the gun to anyone else.. always maintain control of what it is fed, etc..etc..
 
and this is definately not something I am committed to.. just thinking about (and wondering if it is feasible).. "working" on Handi's is still something new to me.. In the past I have bought a couple of new ones off the shelf.. but have never actually swapped barrels, etc before..
 
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Offline petemi

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 03:43:40 AM »
All my Handis are on their own dedicated SB2 frames.  The Huntsman, a .410 and a 20 ga. are on SB1s.  As I'm writing this, I'm reworking the Huntsman.  New scope, butt stock and SB2 frame. I know it doesn't need it, but its SB1 will go on a 12 ga. down the line.  The few extra bucks a SB2 costs buys a lot of peace of mind.  My pistol calibers, .357 and .44 grew up to Maxi and .445 Super Magnum without a worry, and I can load my .45-70 as hot as I can take it.  I don't have to worry about grandkids or someone else swapping things around after I'm gone.  It's just what I, personally, am comfortable with.

Pete
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Offline bikerbeans

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 03:47:15 AM »
mdwest,
 
Unless you are going to stamp the 45-70 barrel "trapdoor loads only" I would not do it.  You can only control your gun as long as you own it or as long as you are living.  There is enough information on the internet about Handi 45-70s being good for at least Lever Gun loads so once this gun goes to someone else there is no telling what pressure round will be fired.  I  had a 45-70 barrel on a modern SB1 frame, but I only shot black powder cartridges.  I decided to convert the gun to inline muzzleloader and now I don't worry about the next person who will own the gun, my son.
 
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Offline mdwest

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 04:02:11 AM »
Thanks guys!
 
Funny.. just a couple of months ago I was concerned about putting a .44 mag bbl on an old SB1 frame..
 
fast forward less than 90 days and Im trying to figure out how to bump up to a .45-70  ;D
 
I think Ill stick to my original plan and turn one of these SB1's into anohter .44 (my son has already laid claim to the one I just put together), and the other one into a .357..
 
(after I am done with those projects, Ill try to convince my wife that I found a great deal on a .45-70 and pick that one up factory new in the box  ;D )
 
 
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Offline Spanky

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2011, 05:48:47 AM »
Standard loads in 30-30 or 45-70 would be fine for the SB1 frame. The factory used to mount both of those calibers on the iron frame.
Don't let a good frame sit around collecting dust... put the rifles together and enjoy shooting them. ;)
 
 
 
Spanky
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2011, 10:08:51 AM »
Trapdoor loads at 28kpsi or lower are fine on an SB1 frame, breech thrust is about the same as the 30-30. You can use the hydraulic cylinder pressure calculator link below to determine the breech force or "push" which is the same formula, ignore the rod diameter value, you just need to know the diameter of the case head which is .505" for the 45-70 and .422" for the 30-30, and the maximum pressure in PSI for the cartridge to get a ball park estimate of breech force, actual breech force(bolt thrust) is determined by the inside area of the case head and pressure.

Tim

http://www.baumhydraulics.com/calculators/cyl_calc.htm

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm
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Offline mdwest

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2011, 10:41:15 AM »
Great links Tim.. Thanks!
 
Educate an ignorant man here.. what constitutes a "trapdoor" load?

Ive been looking to see if I could find PSI specs on common factory rounds.. but havent been able to find any published data..
 
obviously stuff like buffalo bore and other "hot" loads would need to be avoided..
 
what factory loads (if any) are on the table?
 
I was just at Gander Mountain about an hour ago.. they had remington corelokt 405 gr on clearance for example.. would this stuff be safe with an SB1?
 
Or are we talking black power and other very light hand loads only (im not currently handloading)?
 
Thanks again!
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Offline slayer

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2011, 12:04:03 PM »
A trapdoor load would be pressures equal to what 70gr of 2FFG blackpowder puts out with a 405 gr bullet, but I am not sure what that pressure is.
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Offline Doublebass73

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2011, 12:35:08 PM »
I personally wouldn't have a problem using a 45-70 on an SB1 frame since I have no desire to subject my shoulder to anything above trapdoor level loads. Like Tim said, it's case head area and pressure that determines breech thrust.

You'll be fine shooting any standard factory ammo and anything from the "for 1873 Springfield" or "safe for all actions" or "Trapdoor rifles" section of reloading manuals.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2011, 12:42:20 PM »
What DB said, even Hornady Leverevolution ammo is rated for any firearm chambered in 45-70, says so right on the back of the box.  Buffalo Bore and Garrett specifically state what firearms are safe for their ammo which is rated above the SAAMI spec. The SAAMI maximum average pressure for the 45-70 is 28kpsi, but you'll see most data in CUP, but it just so happens that for the 45-70, CUP and PSI have the same value.  ;)

You may notice that not all manuals/bullet manufactures use the same limits for each of the three levels of load data, Hornady and Hodgdon both use 28kcup for the Trapdoor/Springfield limit, others use a much lower spec, so much lower that even Modern Rifle data ends up below what Hornady and Hodgdon set the limit of Levergun data to! (40kcup).

Tim
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Offline mdwest

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2011, 12:58:20 PM »
you guys are a wealth of information.. awesome stuff!
 
Thanks!
 
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2011, 02:32:56 PM »
This may be a dangerous thing to do, but from pieceing together things from the above poss, and from the looks of that chart, if I am not mistaken I should even be able to safely shoot my .35 Remington barrel on an SB-1 frame, as long as I kept the load to factory or lower specs, Any comments or ideas on that possibility?....<><.... :)
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Offline Doublebass73

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2011, 05:23:20 PM »
Andy,

Without running the numbers it looks close. Use the 44 Mag for a standard since H&R will fit those from the factory on an SB1.

It looks like the case head on a .44 Mag is .457" and the Saami max is 36KPSI. The case head on the .35 Remington is .460" and the Saami max is 33.5KPSI.

Find the area of the case head then multiply by the max pressure for each one. If your answer for .35 Remington is lower than the .44 Mag then you're safe.

Area = pi r 2
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2011, 11:05:14 AM »
A quick calculation comes up with .5902 for the .44 Mag and .5564 for the .35 Remington, so it appears that it may be OK...Thanks....<><....:)
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2011, 11:17:03 AM »
Quote from: MSP Ret on November 04, 2011, 11:05:14 AM
A quick calculation comes up with .5902 for the .44 Mag and .5564 for the .35 Remington, so it appears that it may be OK...Thanks....<><.... :)
I agree Andy, you will be fine!
 
BUT If I had such a gun I would 100% steer clear of any Super 35 loadings...
 
These are some of the reasons I fear loadings like Super 35. (Any non standard hot loading) Should that ammo get togather with such a gun as your proposing, (When its beyond your control. Parish the though but when you go to meet your maker) Just say, whom ever is left your "stuff". They say to them selves, Andy would NEVER chance this kinda thing and so they trust and are secure the knoledge ... Not a good thing..
Some will think I worry too much but a couple years ago I got to see first hand that this kind of thing could happen...
 
Knoledge is power,
CW
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2011, 03:25:09 PM »
Also keep in mind that if those SB-1s have the large shotgun firing pins you may have primer flow/action lock issues. It isnt all just barrel fit and action strength.
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Offline mdwest

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2011, 09:07:47 AM »
my new (to me) .45-70 18.5" bbl just got delivered.. it locks up perfect on the 1982 (pre) SB1 frame.. I put a short length of pull stock on it and a schnabel forend.. makes a really short, light big bore..
 
headed to gander mountain now to pick up a couple of boxes of remington 405gr corelokt ammo..
 
wish me luck! will post range results once I get it sighted in..
 
 
 
 
 
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Offline Spanky

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2011, 02:02:59 PM »
Do yourself a favor and save the brass. You'll want to start reloading for it after you pay for a couple boxes of "store bought".
 
 
 
Spanky
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Offline thejanitor

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2011, 06:05:45 PM »
Quote from: Spanky on November 19, 2011, 02:02:59 PM
Do yourself a favor and save the brass. You'll want to start reloading for it after you pay for a couple boxes of "store bought".
 Spanky
+1  If you are able to reload safely, you will want to follow Spankys lead on this, we bought 2 boxes for my son when he first got his barrel and 37.99 a box was pretty steep. We got dies and bullets right away. But read a bunch about reloading so you understand it before you try it. Some people just shouldn't, if you don't have a place that is interuption free and
an understanding of it... then maybe not. But if you can do it safely it can save a bunch of money if you shoot very much at all.  thejanitor
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Offline gendoc

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2011, 02:47:39 AM »
Quote from: mdwest on November 19, 2011, 09:07:47 AM

 I put a short length of pull stock on it and a schnabel forend.. makes a really short, light big bore..

 
wif that set-up.....you wud'nt won'ta even think of "lever-gun loads" ;D
 
she's prolly gunna whip-ya wif a gud stiff TD load anyway :o
 
we hava couple on sb1's... and are known for our handloads only ;)
 
 
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Offline mdwest

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2011, 10:46:30 AM »
I used to do quite a bit of handloading years ago... mostly for pistol.. but did some .30 carbine, .308, and .223 as well.. but havent done it since probably the mid 90's...
 
probably going to want to start again soon though.. the handi bug has bitten!
 
 
Im expecting her to kick like a mule gendoc.. but thats part of the fun!  ;D
 
(hopefully wont be any worse than the 7mm mag that I love to hate...)
 
 
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Offline Dinny

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2013, 07:33:56 AM »
Old thread, but it applies still today for me. I have a few assumptions that I would like to try and confirm. I have a few boxes of what I believe to be TD 45-70 loads. 10.2gr of TB powder loaded with a 330gr Lyman cast HP. Also, I have a SB1 frame with a large firing pin that my Versa Pack came on. A newly acquired 45-70 locks up on it tight. Is this all staying within the capabilities of the frame?

Thanks, Dinny
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2013, 08:27:57 AM »
It would work for me Dinny, I've used one of my 30-30 barrels on an SB1 frame, it worked fine(shot excellent!) with factory Rem 150gr ammo, 42kpsi 30-30 loads have pretty much equivilent breech thrust to 28kpsi 45-70 loads.  ;)

Tim

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Offline gcrank1

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2013, 11:27:52 AM »
!0.2 of TB is a real powderpuff load, no worries there to pop 'em off.
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Offline Dinny

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2013, 12:04:51 PM »
Thanks guys! I shot it three times today and it worked fine. With a little luck some IN deer will get a taste of it as a 1.8". ;D

Thanks, Dinny

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Offline nanuk-O-dah-Nort

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Re: .45-70 on an SB1
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2013, 02:36:11 PM »
maybe it is just me, but my 18.5" 45/70 kicks the same as the 22" one

and my 357mag DW 15-2 with the 2.5" barrel, kicked as little as the 8" barrel.


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