Author Topic: Question on .357 and .44 mag barrel.. (Read 3013 times)

ironglow · « **on:** November 07, 2011, 03:46:16 AM »

I am interested in getting one of these barrels but already have plenty of barrels for my SB2 . The H&R website says an SB1 can handle these cartridges OK....except I don't have an SB1. I do have a Versa-pack, so I'm wondering if it will do the job.. serial number prefix is- NW.
What think you ?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** November 07, 2011, 03:56:35 AM »

Best advice is call and ask or PM Brian, Gardner wouldn't fit any barrels to the Versa-pack frame which was confirmed with Jennifer at one time, maybe that's changed tho.

Tim

JMcDonald · « **Reply #2 on:** November 07, 2011, 07:02:32 AM »

How come you don't want it fitted to your SB2 frame?

manatee1947 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 07, 2011, 07:43:52 AM »

buy a cheap local used H&R shotgun, voila!! you have an "SB1" frame, plus all the wood and hardware. That will handle 357/44 mag, or a Hornet barrel just fine.

ironglow · « **Reply #4 on:** November 07, 2011, 12:31:47 PM »

Quote from: JMcDonald on November 07, 2011, 07:02:32 AM

How come you don't want it fitted to your SB2 frame?

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
I have just one SB2 frame and 4 barrels for it, I would like to be able utilize my Versa for it, since I have just a .22 LR barrel for that. I do have a Sportster with .22 mag & .17 HMR...but it's strictly a rimfire of course.

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #5 on:** November 07, 2011, 05:21:39 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on November 07, 2011, 03:56:35 AM

Best advice is call and ask or PM Brian, Gardner wouldn't fit any barrels to the Versa-pack frame which was confirmed with Jennifer at one time, maybe that's changed tho.

Tim

Since the Versa pack came as a .410Ga/.22LR combo or .17Cal/shotgun combo, I always assumed that it was a SB1 (shotgun) frame. Since it was a shotgun (pressure) frame, wouldn't it theoretically be able to handle pistol cartridge pressures of the 357/44Mags?

cwlongshot · « **Reply #6 on:** November 07, 2011, 10:49:44 PM »

Personally I would avoid the Versa Pac frame. I would also pass on the SB1 unless you get a small firing pin frame... SB2 are out there for good $$ you just need to look. Its NOT just a strength thing.

Sunday at our local Cabelas I saw four or five Handis. Highest priced was a 35 Whelen for 250.. Most where under 200.

CW

ironglow · « **Reply #7 on:** November 07, 2011, 11:44:15 PM »

Thanks guys..guess I look for another frame..or a whole rifle.

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #8 on:** December 02, 2011, 06:34:35 AM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on November 07, 2011, 10:49:44 PM

Personally I would avoid the Versa Pac frame. I would also pass on the SB1 unless you get a small firing pin frame... SB2 are out there for good $$ you just need to look. Its NOT just a strength thing.

Sunday at our local Cabelas I saw four or five Handis. Highest priced was a 35 Whelen for 250.. Most where under 200.

CW

Can you or anyone tell me the difference between the Versa pack frame and the SB1 frame. Is the metallurgy different? Heat treated differently? I know that there is a slight physical difference in the appearance. But why wouldn't the Versa pack frame be the equivalent to the SB1 (shotgun) frame?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** December 02, 2011, 07:49:04 AM »

Brian56 may be able to answer your question best, to my knowledge SS1 and SB1 frames aren't heat treated like SB2 frames.

See the Versa-pac sticky in the H&R rimfire forum.

Tim

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #10 on:** December 02, 2011, 09:00:41 AM »

Tim,
I read the Versa pack sticky previously. I just went back and reread it. Still can't figure out if the Versa pack frame will handle the same equivalent pressures that a SB1 (shotgun) frame will. I want to know if I can use the versa pack frame for the Huntsman 50Cal barrels, and 16, 20, and 12 Gauge shotgun barrels. Hopefully Brian will be able to answer this question.

c1skout · « **Reply #11 on:** December 02, 2011, 02:09:02 PM »

I have a versa-pack that I fit a 44 mag barrel to. Before I did it I had read on here about others who had done the same. Seems to work for me, but I don't know if the factory would do one for you.

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #12 on:** December 02, 2011, 08:10:24 PM »

c1skout - It has been previously confirmed that the factory will not fit any extra barrels to a Versa Pack frame.

I also have used a barrel other than the .410, specifically a 12 Ga. barrel on my Versa pack frame. I have never noticed a problem. I just wanted to know if there were any real differences in strength between the SB1 (shotgun) frame and the Versa pack frame.

It is my understanding that a 2 1/2", .410 Bore shotgun shell generates a shot shell Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) of 12,500 PSI, and the 2 3/4", 12 Gauge shot shell generates a MAP of 11,500 PSI. If this is correct, then the Versa pack frame built for the .410, can easily withstand the pressures generated by a 12Ga. If I'm wrong, can someone correct me? Thanks all.

ibgp3 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 03, 2011, 02:17:43 AM »

The 12 Ga shell is a bigger base, which translates to a larger piston, which translates to more force trying to blow the action open.
Let's approximate:
12ga about .8" bore
Diameter=.8 radius= .4 area = pi*r*r = 3.14*.4*.4 = .5024 square inch
410ga about .45" bore
Diameter=.45 radius= .225 area = pi*r*r = 3.14*.225*.225 = .1590 square inch

From your data 410ga pressure is 12,500 PSI (pounds per square inch)
.1590 square inch times 12,500 PSI = 1,987.5 pounds of force.

From your data 12ga pressure is 11,500 PSI (pounds per square inch)
.5024 square inch times 11,500 PSI = 5,777.6 pounds of force.

Other forces are at work, for instance:the same pressure that is pushing the piston back is also holding the case against the cylinder wall. The point is that the Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) is not comparing apples to apples.

For what it's worth:
500S&W .5" bore
Diameter=.5 radius= .25 area = pi*r*r = 3.14*.25*.25 = .1963 square inch
500S&W pressure is 60,000 PSI (pounds per square inch)
.1963 square inch times 60,000 PSI = 11,778 pounds of force.

Lon371 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 03, 2011, 04:45:10 AM »

Ok first I have know how to spell. Now I see I have to be mathematicion to play with Handi's? I am going to watch cartoons before my head pops.

Lonny

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** December 03, 2011, 05:00:54 AM »

Bolt thrust, or breech thrust in a Handi, is dependent on the pressure and the inside area of the case head, not the bore diameter of the barrel. You don't need to be a math wiz, just a master of search engines, just plug the case head diameter into the cylinder bore field and the pressure into the PSI field, ignore the rod diameter and click to compute for a ball park breech thrust.

Tim

http://www.baumhydraulics.com/calculators/cyl_calc.htm

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm

Quote

Bolt Thrust

Bolt thrust is easy to calculate. Only two inputs are required. They are peak chamber pressure in PSI and as mentioned, the inside area of the case head that the gas pressure can work on. The formula then is:

THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:

AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2

HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #16 on:** December 03, 2011, 06:13:19 AM »

Quote from: Lon371 on December 03, 2011, 04:45:10 AM

Ok first I have know how to spell. Now I see I have to be mathematicion to play with Handi's? I am going to watch cartoons before my head pops.

Lonny

LOL

, Guess you're right Lonny, but it's great that we have such knowledgeable guys to help people like me along. Thanks for the info guys.

Now if I can only get an answer to how strong the Versa pack frame is compared to the SB1(shotgun) frame.

Lon371 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 03, 2011, 07:10:25 AM »

Quote from: OldSchoolRanger on December 03, 2011, 06:13:19 AM

Quote from: Lon371 on December 03, 2011, 04:45:10 AM
Ok first I have know how to spell. Now I see I have to be mathematicion to play with Handi's? I am going to watch cartoons before my head pops.

Lonny
LOL , Guess you're right Lonny, but it's great that we have such knowledgeable guys to help people like me along. Thanks for the info guys.

Now if I can only get an answer to how strong the Versa pack frame is compared to the SB1(shotgun) frame.

I do agree with ya

. Guess it what keeps some of us safe

Lonny

ibgp3 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 03, 2011, 07:10:50 AM »

On a straight walled case the bore is likely to be closer to the inside area of the case than the rim size.
Where is the "case head diameter" was a question I was trying to avoid.

On a bottle-necked case the bore would not be part of the calculation.
Only using the case head diameter will always get you close.

My point was for anyone who wanted to understand the concepts. Most people learn "pie are squared" in Junior High.

Lon371 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 03, 2011, 07:20:18 AM »

ibgp3

Don't take offense. I was just funnen with ya. I am very thankful for you folks who offer your skills for those of us don't know.

Lonny

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** December 03, 2011, 08:02:14 AM »

Quote from: ibgp3 on December 03, 2011, 07:10:50 AM

On a straight walled case the bore is likely to be closer to the inside area of the case than the rim size.
Where is the "case head diameter" was a question I was trying to avoid.

On a bottle-necked case the bore would not be part of the calculation.
Only using the case head diameter will always get you close.

My point was for anyone who wanted to understand the concepts. Most people learn "pie are squared" in Junior High.

The case head is the "solid head" part of the case as shown in the pic in Fred's article below.

And pies are usually round, not square!!!

Tim

http://4-dproducts.com/submenu/That%20Unsightly%20Bulge.pdf

ibgp3 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 03, 2011, 08:23:08 AM »

This is a 500S&W
It is a straight walled case.
The case head diameter is .531.
The case mouth diameter is .531.
The inside of the case mouth diameter is .500.
Quoting Quickdtoo:
"Bolt thrust, or breech thrust in a Handi, is dependent on the pressure and the inside area of the case head, not the bore diameter of the barrel."
If I were going to compute the inside case head area I would start with a diameter of .500
The case head diameter is close, but in straight wall cases the bore is usually closer.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** December 03, 2011, 08:34:38 AM »

That's close to the actual size of the inside case head of the 500S&W which is .501", but wouldn't work for bottlenecked cases, been there, done this before.

Tim

Quote from: quickdtoo on August 05, 2008, 03:32:58 PM

I did a little calculatin myself using an online calculator, hope it's what I want. The 500S&W has an operating pressure of over 50kpsi and an inside case head diameter of .501", that calculates to over 9800lbs of breech thrust, and the 500S&W has roughly half the case wall contact of the 45-120. Bell 45 Basic brass has an inside case head diameter of ~.420" as near as I can measure it, that calculates to 6900lbs of breech thrust at 50kpsi. I don't know how thick Norma brass is, but the Bell is considerably thicker than the 500S&W brass at the case head. Considering the generally accepted premise that straight walled cases have just as much pressure exerted on the case walls as the case head, I don't think Tyler's loads are any more dangerous than 500S&W loads in any other respect than the tremendous recoil affects which should be considered as STUMPJMPR pointed out.

Tim

Calculating bolt(breech) thrust

ibgp3 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 03, 2011, 09:38:07 AM »

That's why I used only straight wall cases for examples....and from my original post:

The point is that the Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) is not comparing apples to apples.

keith44 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 03, 2011, 05:03:42 PM »

at ease fellas, you both are arguing over minor differences of the same point

BAGTIC · « **Reply #25 on:** December 06, 2011, 04:52:00 PM »

Cartridge cases have been known to fail. A conservative engineer assuming a 'worst possible' situation would calculate breech thrust based on the inside diameter of the chamber not the diameter of the case, inside or outside.

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #26 on:** December 06, 2011, 05:08:45 PM »

I think that we may have strayed off the subject, posted by ironglow, which was: "The H&R website says an SB1 can handle these cartridges OK....except I don't have an SB1. I do have a Versa-pack, so I'm wondering if it will do the job."

Does anyone know the answer?

ironglow · « **Reply #27 on:** December 08, 2011, 05:34:33 AM »

Thanks OSR;
Although I appreciate the knowledge of our contemporaries here..and have more than once benefitted from just such knowledge, I'm still wondering if a 357/44 will work on a Versa frame..
BTW: My country-boy logic tells me that a bottle-necked caes generates more pressure because all that explosion is trying to squish that bullet through a tiny barrel...and the tinier the barrel, the harder to expel all those gasses at once.

The old H&Rs from the 70s used to have .22 Hornets and .30/30s on what i have been led to believe were basically SB1 frames, but recently I tried a Hornet on an SBI frame and found bulged or perforated primers..even with milder loads.

BAGTIC · « **Reply #28 on:** December 23, 2011, 11:09:52 AM »

Nope. No practical difference. Whether the case is straight or bottled the powder charge will be about the same and it still has to exit through the same little hole. One difference is that the bottlenecked case has a larger base area so it requires a larger stronger breech. The advantage of the bottleneck cartridge is that it results in a shorter cartridge. This is primarily of importance in repeaters. Singleshot users don't worry much about COL effecting loading. In the design of tank guns there have been instances where the longer cartridge was awkward to handle in the confines of a tank turret so a bottlenecked cartridge of the same performance was designed based on its handiness rather that its performance.

BAGTIC · « **Reply #29 on:** December 23, 2011, 11:16:34 AM »

Forget the .357/44 and get a .357 Maximum.
You will be able to also shpoot .38 Special and .357 Magnum out of it. You won't have to form cases. You won't need forming dies. You won't need custom loading dies as you can use standard .357 Magnum dies. Because it is straight you can use carbide sizing dies and avoid the nuisance of lubing the cases before sizing. If you decide to sell it there will be many more interested buyers.