1861 Springfield. Loads? Mine stink!

[Co. Batguano]

Gentlemen ,
This last weekend I spent a pleasant afternoon trying go get a load that worked for my (Armi Sport repro) model 1861 Springfield.  I varied the loads all over the place, with a 60 gr load of FFg, up to 180 gr for a patched round ball.  I tried Minie balls too.  It just seems that I can't find a load for it.  The best accuracy I was able to obtain was a 7" group at 25 yards, , and that was about 6" high.  I cleaned between each and every shot..  Not to the point it was whistle clean, but pretty clean.  For patces, I used the regular old .010, and / or .015 pre-lubed ones.  On the Minie balls I used .577's, with all the grooves gooped up pretty good with SPG lube. 
Obviously this is terrible.  I know it's not me, because I was able to shoot a 5 shot 1 1/4" group with my 40 cal Pennsylvania flinter at 50 yards.   Is it just the design?  That 1861 barrel is pretty thin toward the muzzle.  The manufacturer?  The individual gun?  (I've noticed that the lands and grooves in this gun are pretty shallow.)  Does anyone have any pet loads that work for this gun they'd be willing to share?  I doubt the original guns were this bad.
I also have another Armi Sport Enfield I want to shoot, but am quite leary of the manufacturer after the above experience.

[keith44]

I would think you would see a tight group right around 60 grains of 2F, and again around 90 to 100 grains of 2F with a patched round ball.  Since you have tried those loads, I would first look the gun over real closely. Start by scrubbing the bore until patches are clean, let it set over night, and clean it again (if the patch from the next day has any discoloration).  Make sure the muzzle is not damaged, and make sure the barrel is not loose, and the sights are also tight.
 
Next I'd look at the patch thickness, and patch lube.  If all this checks out, load a cleaning patch with a red rouge buffing compound, on a cleaning jig and give it about 100 strokes to polish the bore and try again.  My bet is the muzzle is damaged though. ( slightly out of round, or a burr in a groove )
 
Best guesses I've got, Good Luck
 

[bagdadjoe]

I'd start by checking out this thread http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/british/enfield/management.htm
 
It deals with Enfields but the basics are exactly the same.  My guess is that the barrel (breech) needs bedding and you probably need to find the right bullet and size it to your bore.  You need to use pure lead for the minies and weigh them.  My mold throws a 500g bullet, so if I come up with a 490, I can pretty much determine there's a void in it.  To size the bore, take a fishing sinker, one of the egg shaped ones with the hole in it, lube it up with Break Free or similiar, and drive it into the muzzle about half way. I just take small lag screw, screw it into the hole, grasp it with a pair of pliers and take a small hammer and hit the pliers, pulling it straight out of the muzzle.  The Enfield I have is 3 grooved so I turned the bullet and drove it in again (hard to measure an odd groove).  Some twist the slug in the bore to round it uniformly and measure it.  You can order sizers from a couple of places.  Bullet should just slide into the muzzle.
I bedded mine with some walnut shims which were made by running a piece of walnut through a table saw and making some almost paper thin shims.  Instructions for bedding are in the above link.  Took me all of about 15 minutes after making the shims.
Good luck.  It can be made to shoot with patience.
 

[coyotejoe]

Wow, 7" at 25 yards is pretty lousy, even a smoothbore will generally group balls under two inches at 25. I really have no idea what could cause a rifle to shoot that poorly. All of the things mentioned could indeed help but I don't believe they'd all combined make that much difference.

[ironball]

I would have to repeat the recomendation for pure lead. That and light powder charges. These guns have very shallow grooves and depend on obturation of the bullet to fill them. Only soft lead will do that, but if you push the bullet too fast it will strip in the rifling and the results are not good. Round balls need a very thin patch, and need to be .562 or smaller. My Enfield will shoot minies well with 60 grains FFg, Maxi-Hunters with 75 grains. I don't have any patches thin enough for the .562 roundballs, but I got some nice groups with 75 grains and nothing more than and old T-shirt, cut at the muzzle. Every time I hear someone having trouble with a Minie ball shooter, it is because they didn't use pure lead.

[argie1891]

i have a 1853 enfield and while i havent gotten great groups i have had pretty good groups with the rcbs minnie backed by about 70 gr of fff. i have 4 minnie moulds. a parker hale repo. made by lyman. that has a short skirt and just wont group. a hensley gibbs that is better but not real good and another lyman i cant remember the number. rcbs has millie bullet moulds of several diameters. the one i  bought is .578 and shoots groups of right at 2 inches at 50 yards. as far as your rifle shooting high they all do that. i milled out a sight that fits over the existing front sight and i a bit higher. i made it so i could remove it and the rifle is not altered. i have a round ball mould but want to shoot minnie bullets like what was shot in the war between the states ro war of northern agression or whatever you want to call it. buy another couple moulds cast from soft lead and keep trying it will get better. argie1891

[curator]

Shooting minnie balls accurately in rifle/muskets requires a lot of experimenting. First, the bullet must be no more than .005 under bore size. Second, the bullet must be free of air pockets or casting imperfections and cast from nearly pure lead. (the originals were swaged not cast, from pure lead) Lastly your lube and powder charge must work. I have had the best accuracy with 45 grains of Goex FFFg in my Armi Sport 1861 replica. I am shooting the Lee 578" Improved minnie sparingly lubed with a 50/50 bee's wax/lard mix. I weigh the bullets to cull the ones with air pockets. Casting hot with good technique reduces but does not eliminate voids.

[argie1891]

Shooting minnie balls accurately in rifle/muskets requires a lot of experimenting. First, the bullet must be no more than .005 under bore size
 
as stated above the larger minnie bullets shoot best, most lyman are undersized and just dont group well. rcbs made them in several sizes i have one that is .578 and it shoots farily well. now i admit i need to and want to shoot the rifle more before i start bragging but so far the larger rcbs minnie has out shot the other minnie bullets. i bought mine to shoot minnie bullets and not round balls. i own a hensly and gibbs 58 minnie a parker hale and a couple lyman trying to get the rifle to group. finally when i bought the rcbs i have been happy with it. it would stay on a blue belly or johnny reb at a fair distance. argie1891