Our Marines warned not to spit, among other things, towards mecca.

[yellowtail3]

her article is valueless.. 

Well, it's worth a lot to wingnut xenophobes, provincial fundamentalists, and anti-Muslim bigots... simply because it agrees with their prejudices. For some folks, whether or not the article is true is completely beside the point.

[mdwest]

Comparing her to John Perkins is quite innaccurate, imo.

it depends on the context..
 
I agree with you that there huge differences in the the two people, where they draw their opinions and conclusions, etc.. I wasnt making an attempt to compare them in that way at all..
 
the point being made is that if anyone (Perkins included and cited as an example) is willing to skew the "truth" by even a microcosim through intentionally introducing information that is known to not be true.. in order to validate their point or bring more value or attention to their position.. then they have redendered any "truth" that was in their statement valueless.. how can you trust anything they say without going out and cross referencing it, verifying it, and seeking further confirmation (doing your own research as you say..)?
 
 
Here is where I seem to differ from several people on this board..
 
I am fundamentally pretty conservative.. politically, morally, ethically, and just about any other way you can break a person down..
 
That said, I fully recognize that a number of liberals AND conservatives are more than willing to say anything.. they will pull material out of context, skew facts, lie by commission, lie by omission, distort statistics, and/or intentionally mislead others in order to get others to agree with their point of view..
 
While I am conservative in values, politics, etc.. I dont appreciate being lied or (or mislead) by anyone.. especially not fellow conservatives.. and I refuse to be a sheep.. (liberals dont get a "bye" here either.. I call them out just as often for doing the exact same thing.)
 
same thing applies to birthers, truthers, and every other group that has a "cause".. Im willing to listen to anyone and hear why they feel a certain way, why they think something is a certain way, why they find value in X but not in Y, etc.. Im willing to exchange ideas, thoughts, concepts, information, etc.. with anyone.. and have a valid debate on just about any topic..
 
but the minute they cross the line and begin to present BS.. my attention, my respect, and my willingness to believe anything else said is lost... they are a confirmed liar.. willing to attempt to manipulate me through fraudlent means in order to position themselves or their belief system in a better place.. any "truth" that might be presented in the future can no longer be taken as such without it being throughly verified..
 
thats not to say people shouldnt have opinions.. they absolutely should... but if something is an opinion, theory, or hypothesis.. it should be presented as such..
 
If Ms. West THINKS that troops are being required to take a compass and find north prior to taking a piss.. she should say that she THINKS this.. if her opinion is that providing cultural sensitivity training is wrong.. then she should state that as well..
 
what she shouldnt do is state that things are happening.. when in fact they are not.. and attempt to manipulate her readership into beliving something is going on, that is not.. in order to support her opinions and beliefs.. it takes the little bit of truth that was presented in her article.. and rubs mud and feces all over it.. 
 

 

[Casull]

the point being made is that if anyone is willing to skew the "truth" by even a microcosim through intentionally introducing information that is known to not be true.. in order to validate their point or bring more value or attention to their position.. then they have redendered any "truth" that was in their statement valueless..

 
 
If by that you mean that anytime anyone emphasizes any portion of a story based upon their own biases or preconceived notions, then you have virtually rendered all news and certainly any posts here (left or right) valueless.  For instance, you find the author's statement that Uncle Sam wants our Marines to not spit or urinate in the direction of mecca untrue because they were not specifically ordered so.  However, if as part of their training, the Mariines are being taught not to do so, whether by a sargent or a civilian, has not the US Marine Corp told them exactly that?  Also, I don't believe the author claimed that the story was based upon nothing but her own research.  So what if she read an article, took umbrage with some portion of it, and then wrote her own story dealing with that part that she found offensive.  Is this not done frequently?  As to the leftwing nutjobs that are always ready to pounce when a mistake occurs (if in fact, one considers this a mistake), is it so surprising that when confronted with report after report after report of similar PC crap being shoved down unwilling throats, that a story such as this is accepted until proven otherwise?

[Casull]

Damn, I see tm beat me to the punch.   

[mdwest]

not saying people dont make mistakes.. they do all the time.. myself included..
 
what I am saying is that some people arent making mistakes.. they are intentionally misleading others for their own self gain..
 
to put things in context.. I have been published a number of times myself over the years.. if you want to see an example of my work, pick up the January edition of Security Management magazine in a couple of months.. (be forwarned.. you will be bored to tears.. the article being published is on the use of Project Management tools to develop sustainable corporate policy across a global enterprise).. Within that article you will see a number of facts presented.. you will also see a number of opinions and conclusions drawn.. what you will not see is anywhere that I state something that is an opinion or a conclusion is a "fact".. they will be supported as best practices, backed up with case studies, backed up with examples, etc.. but nowhere will you find me saying "this is the way it is.. period.."..
 
That said.. I have an audience.. many of whom would likely be willing to accept whatever I say in this article as "fact" whether it is.. or is not.. I could have chosen to simply go the route of "I am the authority on this.. accept what I tell you as truth.. without exception.. and go do as you have been advised".. even though some of the conclusions drawn dont have enough substance to warrant that.. by virtue of the fact that I have been in my field a long time, have been published a good bit, have held senior leadership positions with a couple of significant organizations, etc.. some people (sheep) would certainly be willing to follow anywhere that they are lead..
 
that however would have been wrong..
 
maybe thats why I havent won any pullitzer prizes yet... I refuse to lie to my audience...
 

[Casull]

Mdwest, I can certainly see the value of presenting textbook type articles in a purely factual manner.  However, I would hope that you can see how that is different than writing "news" stories or editorial type pieces.

[mdwest]

As to the leftwing nutjobs that are always ready to pounce when a mistake occurs (if in fact, one considers this a mistake), is it so surprising that when confronted with report after report after report of similar PC crap being shoved down unwilling throats, that a story such as this is accepted until proven otherwise?

we agree here.. and this is exactly the point..
 
a number hard lefters.. as well as hard righters are willing to say whatever it takes.. whether it is truthful or not.. which often is later unveiled as lies, deciet, etc.. which only causes the each side to be that much less trustful of the other...
 
if both liberals and conservatives would stick to presenting facts as facts.. opinions as opinions.. and conclusions as conclusions.. as opposed to presenting unsubstantiated garbage as anything other than what it really is.. then perhaps we could actually have a real conversation about what is right, wrong, or inconsequential..
 
instead you have to spend time figuring out who is lying, who's cheating, and who's BS'ing for their own self gain first.. before you can even begin to have a reasonable conversation about finding solutions to the problems that concern people on both sides of an argument..
 

[mdwest]

Mdwest, I can certainly see the value of presenting textbook type articles in a purely factual manner.  However, I would hope that you can see how that is different than writing "news" stories or editorial type pieces.

Definately see the differences.. but at the end of the day.. whatever media is used to disseminate a lie is irrelevant.. if the information being presented is a lie..
 
News can, and often times should be opinion pieces.. opinion pieces spark conversations and get people thinking...
 
that said.. if it is an opinion.. make sure it is presented as such..
 
 

[Casull]

Definately see the differences.. but at the end of the day.. whatever media is used to disseminate a lie is irrelevant.. if the information being presented is a lie..

 
 
If it's a lie, then of course.  If it's placing emphasis on the portion that one wants to emphasize, then it's not a lie, just persuasive.

[mdwest]

I can accept persuasion..
 
for example.. in the original article.. the author states: "Uncle Sam is getting a little weird. Make that a lot weird."... I may or may not agree with that.. but this statement is obviously her opinion, is put out there in a manner that lets us know it is an opinion, she makes no attempt to put any "facts" behind it, and uses this statement to set up the rest of her article to attempt to persude me to see her point of view.. nothing wrong with that at all...
 
in the same article however (1 paragraph down) she states: "When nature calls, Uncle Sam has decided he wants every U.S. Marine equipped with a map and compass, or some other way of knowing direction. This is to ensure that no U.S. Marine in Afghanistan urinates in the direction of Mecca ever again."
 
this is not presented as an opinion.. instead she states facts that are not truthful (maps, compasses, etc..), and standards that do not exist (ensures no Marine urinates in the direction of Mecca ever again)..
 
Had she said something along the lines of "this is ridiculous.. does the USMC expect Marines to carry maps and compasses around and check their azimuth prior to pissing?".. I could accept that at an attempt to pursude through the presentation of thoughts and opinion.. she would be making an attempt to get me to think through the process of how the sensitivity training impacts our troops, what is involved in it, how it relates to the way Americans percieve Afghans and how Afghans percieve Americans, etc.. whether I agree with her point of view or not wouldnt matter.. she is entitled to one, and crossed no lines in presenting it..
 
that is not however what she did..
 
what she did is lie to make her point.. she told the public (and many of you initially believed the lie) that the government made a decision regarding how Marines piss in Afghanistan and is taking action to ensure that Marines piss facing the right direction..
 
thats not pursuasion.. thats manipulation.. huge difference..
 
the mere fact that conservatives are willing to condone such mess causes us to be hypocrites when we condem liberals for the same garbage (I freely admit I see the same type of doo-doo flung from the other side of the fence all the time as well.. liberals are no better or less frequent liars than anyone else..)..
 

[ironglow]

  This Obama administration with all it's shennanigans.. e.g. trying Gitmo POW detainees in NY, hostility to Israel, changing NASA's mission to a Muslim feel good society, cancelling our missle defense, raising taxes on business in a recession, giving guns by the hundreds to drug cartels, joining with foreign countries to sue some of our own supposedly "united" states, Giving a drug smuggler complete legal immunity so the Dept of "Justice" can jail a Border Patrolman for alleged 'unnecessary roughness', insulting the UK and their queen, assisting the "muslim Brotherhood" in taking over nations and shutting down our own offshore drilling in favor of Brazil's offshore drilling etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum...such makes it too easy not to doubt the wildest accusations which come down the pike ! 
     Israel is the ONLY likely ally that has the training, knowledge and courage to take care of a nuclear armed rogue state which is about to set the middle east aflame.  So this very week what did Obama do ? ..Obama took the opportunity to side with Sarcozy in 'trashing' Israel and her elected prime minister...
  Just how much more outrageous can they get than the actions they have already taken ?
  So why should we be surprised at anything the administration may do or say ?
 

[mdwest]

go back and re-read what has been said.. I fully agree that opinions are important.. opinions are what get people thinking, talking, researching, etc.. so that they can derive their own opinions and conclusions.. casual conversation that leads to deeper thought is absolutely important...
 
when are opinions are presented as fact based statements however.. with attempts to back those "facts" with material evidence that does not exist.. you are no longer giving an opinion... you are lying..
 
or are you saying that Diana West making direct statements like "Uncle Sam is providing maps and compasses...." (which is absolutely untrue).. is ok.. even though it leads people to believe something that obviously isnt the case (read the initial comments in this thread alone..there is your evidence of the effect of lying..)..
 
by that standard, I suppose its ok for you to lie to people in order to further your position on a "truther" issue? as long as it helps to get your point across its ok to intentionally mislead? (her statements were no accident, but you seem to think its ok there..)..
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[mdwest]

go back and read the other article she wrote on the same topic.. the one where she doesnt lie.. does state facts.. and clearly shows what her opinion is..
 
http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/1933/US-Marines-No-Spitting-Toward-Mecca.aspx
 
while I dont agree with her opinion.. i can not fault her for this article.. she doesnt cross the line.. (writing truthfully on the same subject matter CAN be done.. she just chose not to do it in the other article)..
 
 
 
 

[mdwest]

its common practice for the military to hire local nationals in both Iraq and Afghanistan to act as translators, interpreters, etc.. typically you have at least a couple working at the battalion level with every unit that has a mission outside the wire.. some are better than others.. commanders that get lucky and get the "good" ones will often rely on them as cultural advisors, etc as well.. these guys escort the commanders into jirga's and other important meetings to help them communicate with the Afghans.. there are litterally thousands of them on the payroll between the two theaters..
 
there are a couple of different programs where perminant residence visas are given to Afghan nationals (and Iraqis) that have proven to be of excellent service to the US in their mission.. not everyone that takes a job with the military or state department gets one or is even eligible (in fact, only a very small number of the Afghans that work for the US in theaters get one).. but it is an obvious huge incentive for these guys to take these types of jobs.. the pay is a big motivator as well in taking these jobs.. I've seen interpreter salaries ranging from about $600 - $1200 a month.. that is huge money for an Afghan national.. most Afghans with advanced educations make substantially less than that..
 
Commanders and senior state department officials can recommend their Afghan national employees for these visa programs.. my understanding is that a couple of hundred are approved and processed each year..
 
A large number of the people that get these visas turn around and work for the government once they come to the US (most often the DOD) in a variety of capacities.. ranging from translators/interpreters back here, to instructors at schools like the one mentioned in the article, to simple "role players" at different military schools.. depending on their skill sets and experience..
 
some of them just come over and go to work on the local economy.. I know of 2 Iraqi's for example that worked as interpreters for the Army in Baghdad.. that went to work in NYC.. they were both driving cabs the last time I checked on them.. its been a few years.. I dont know where either of those guys are now or what they might be doing..
 
a handful get sponsored by DOD and DOS contracting firms and go to work for them doing similar tasks as described above (translating documents, providing interpretation services, cultural advisement, etc..)..