Teachers overpaid

[billy_56081]

Not even in the top 15. Dang old facts!
 
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-15-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-2010-3

[billy_56081]

Or even the top 20.
 
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/04/08/the-20-most-dangerous-jobs.html

[XD40SC]

You forgot the odds of a teacher being abused or killed is higher than most non law enforcement jobs.

 
 
That a guess, or do you have something to back it up?  Haven't seen it on the discovery channel yet with the crab fisherman, loggers or truckers.

Don't have any facts. Once during an in service program on self defense in the classroom, a state trooper made that statement. It always stayed with me.I think he was referring to being attacked by another individual.

[30-30man]

I've taught middle school special education for twelve years before I decided to open my own business. I've traveled to Europe, Central and South America, and even China once doing mission trips. There was just too much to read, but I can answer some of the questions about testing.
  Many countries do not test their entire student populations.  All students are not streamed into academic courses like they are in the United States.  Students who are labeled as slow learners early are pushed into trade schools.  In the United States, all students are tested and vocational studies are not even talked about until high school.  Even the special education students have to attend some of the same classes and take the same end of the year tests that all students take.  These students kill the test scores for every school in the United States.  It was part of the federal "No Child Left Behind" law. 
 
When you read articles that compare our students with those of other countries, keep in mind that not all students in other countries are tested.  It's just not a fair comparison.  As far as this profession being dangerous, it can be.  I was attacked my third year teaching by a mentally ill fourteen year-old.  I got the best of him, but still had to go to court as the parents were fighting the expulsion.  Many people have no idea of the stipulations that the federal government has put on states so that they will receive federal funds.  Students in special education can bring guns to school and only be suspended up to 45 days if it is deemed related to their disability.  This was a result of public law 94-142 also known as FAPE..."Free and Appropriate Public Education"  Every student has to have equal opportunity even if their disability makes them a danger to everyone in the school building.   That means if "Johnny" is a little behind in reading and his parents get him into special education, he will get more protection from any disciplinary action than other students.  It ties the hands of everyone in the school. 
 
 This is why the public doesn't understand why schools don't get rid of certain students, even the ones that are dangerous.  The truth is that they are bound by these stupid federal laws put on every state.  I've witnessed this more than a few times in my own school district.  It was one of the reasons I found another way to make a living.  We had a 6th grader who was in special education bring a loaded 9mm and hid it in his locker as he intended to shoot the football coach.  The coach would not take 6th graders as it was against district policy.  The kid was suspended for three months and came back to school like nothing had ever happened.  I could do nothing about it, and decided to leave.
 
 
As far as teachers being over compensated...We'll I challenge anyone to go substitute teach for a couple of weeks before you judge their paychecks. It's a highly stressful job.  They earn every penny they make and then some.  Most do have more holidays off, but don't have the option of an hour lunch and breaks at the water cooler. Heck, most can't even go to the bathroom during the day unless they send for someone to watch their class....Teachers earn every penny.

[XD40SC]

I've taught middle school special education for twelve years before I decided to open my own business. I've traveled to Europe, Central and South America, and even China once doing mission trips. There was just too much to read, but I can answer some of the questions about testing.
  Many countries do not test their entire student populations.  All students are not streamed into academic courses like they are in the United States.  Students who are labeled as slow learners early are pushed into trade schools.  In the United States, all students are tested and vocational studies are not even talked about until high school.  Even the special education students have to attend some of the same classes and take the same end of the year tests that all students take.  These students kill the test scores for every school in the United States.  It was part of the federal "No Child Left Behind" law. 
 
When you read articles that compare our students with those of other countries, keep in mind that not all students in other countries are tested.  It's just not a fair comparison.  As far as this profession being dangerous, it can be.  I was attacked my third year teaching by a mentally ill fourteen year-old.  I got the best of him, but still had to go to court as the parents were fighting the expulsion.  Many people have no idea of the stipulations that the federal government has put on states so that they will receive federal funds.  Students in special education can bring guns to school and only be suspended up to 45 days if it is deemed related to their disability.  That means if "Johnny" is a little behind in reading and his parents get him into special education, he will get more protection from any disciplinary action than other students.  It ties the hands of everyone in the school. I've witnessed this more than a few times in my own school district.  It was one of the reasons I found another way to make a living.
 
 
As far as teachers being over compensated...We'll I challenge anyone to go substitute teach for a couple of weeks before you judge their paychecks. It's a highly stressful job.  They earn every penny they make and then some.  Most do have more holidays off, but don't have the option of an hour lunch and breaks at the water cooler. Heck, most can't even go to the bathroom during the day unless they send for someone to watch their class....Teachers earn every penny.

well said.

[Singleshotsam]

I've taught middle school special education for twelve years before I decided to open my own business. I've traveled to Europe, Central and South America, and even China once doing mission trips. There was just too much to read, but I can answer some of the questions about testing.
  Many countries do not test their entire student populations.  All students are not streamed into academic courses like they are in the United States.  Students who are labeled as slow learners early are pushed into trade schools.  In the United States, all students are tested and vocational studies are not even talked about until high school.  Even the special education students have to attend some of the same classes and take the same end of the year tests that all students take.  These students kill the test scores for every school in the United States.  It was part of the federal "No Child Left Behind" law. 
 
When you read articles that compare our students with those of other countries, keep in mind that not all students in other countries are tested.  It's just not a fair comparison.  As far as this profession being dangerous, it can be.  I was attacked my third year teaching by a mentally ill fourteen year-old.  I got the best of him, but still had to go to court as the parents were fighting the expulsion.  Many people have no idea of the stipulations that the federal government has put on states so that they will receive federal funds.  Students in special education can bring guns to school and only be suspended up to 45 days if it is deemed related to their disability.  That means if "Johnny" is a little behind in reading and his parents get him into special education, he will get more protection from any disciplinary action than other students.  It ties the hands of everyone in the school. I've witnessed this more than a few times in my own school district.  It was one of the reasons I found another way to make a living.
 
 
As far as teachers being over compensated...We'll I challenge anyone to go substitute teach for a couple of weeks before you judge their paychecks. It's a highly stressful job.  They earn every penny they make and then some.  Most do have more holidays off, but don't have the option of an hour lunch and breaks at the water cooler. Heck, most can't even go to the bathroom during the day unless they send for someone to watch their class....Teachers earn every penny.

well said.

Very well said!!!  It's actually a breath of fresh air to read this!
 
 

[ironglow]

Or even the top 20.
 
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/04/08/the-20-most-dangerous-jobs.html

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  Those TOP TEN or TOP TWENTY lists are all bogus (IMO).  I nominate as the top most dangerous... the combat infantryman..especially Spec Ops..  The others are 'kid stuff'..
    ...And I say that having worked "high steel" ..tanks, towers, bridges etc and building farm silos for a good share of my working years..
 ... And I proudly say this as a veteran..on veteran's day !

[Singleshotsam]

Happy Veteren's day to you Ironglow and all Veteren's here on.  Thank you for your service.

[reliquary]

30-30man:  Well said!
 
I full-time-subbed in a JH Sp Ed class, for 8 weeks, for a teacher on maternity leave, before I made up my mind to go into it for a second career...figuring that if I could handle that, I could handle the regular classroom.
 
It's true that many countries don't expect everyone to go into college.  German kids were tested and tracked either into academic fields or blue-collar jobs beginning in the 9th grade.  I don't remember what it was for the Japanese and Korean kids.
 
One of my SpEd superstars (later) smuggled a pistol onto campus for her gangsta boyfriend to use on a gangsta on the other team.  She got one semester on the "bad behavior campus" and then went back to regular classes. At a local campus (happening now) they have an illegal immigrant student who molested a kid on campus and his little sister off-campus...the local DA has said they can't expel him OR DEPORT HIM because he's SpEd and that would interfere with his FAPE. 
 
EQ:  The main reason I "happily did it for less" was that I was drawing as much or more in military retirement than I drew as teacher pay, plus I drew medical benefits.  Most other teachers I know were/are part of a working couple; that helps overcome any pay problems.

[reliquary]

And then...and then...for a separate post:
 
Happy Veterans Day back at all ye brethren ( and sisteren, if any are reading).
 
US Army 1966-1986
RVN 1969-70

[Empty Quiver]

30-30man:  Well said!
 .
 . 
 
EQ:  The main reason I "happily did it for less" was that I was drawing as much or more in military retirement than I drew as teacher pay, plus I drew medical benefits.  Most other teachers I know were/are part of a working couple; that helps overcome any pay problems.

Again, my point being that as long as the positions can be filled for low pay the pay will not rise. Folks figure out a way to be able to afford to teach.


Short story to illustrate. I have an ag degree. I found a job in a fertilizer plant that to be honest I really liked. I was out in the field most of the year doing soil testing, plant disease scouting, making herbicide recommendations, I drove a floater and a high clearance sprayer, I worked on equipment, was my own boss for all intents and purposes. I was paid to do things I would have (and had) done for free. This all went along swimmingly till the family grew. I told the checkout gal of my dilemma, groceries were getting to expensive. I went so far as to tell her that I enjoyed my job immensely and I did a great service for my customers (her father being one of them), and could she give me a discount. The answer of course was no. Now I told the business owner the same story, he was unmoved. Seems that about once a month someone would come in and express interest in my job. They would gladly take my job for the same pay.   There was no reason whatsoever for the owner to pay me more. My position could be filled rather quickly and by someone who could learn to do what I had been doing. I would like to say my replacement was unable to fill my shoes. I don't know that though.


Now I drive a truck, I bring home three times as much money. I can't say as I enjoy my job as much. The hours suck, the people I deal with primarily are morons. But guess what, the company can't get anyone to do the job for any less pay. They try, they try all the time. They have to offer sign on incentives to both me for finding someone and the new hire. Today, right now, economic woes and all. People won't do this lousy work for anything less than $50k/yr to start. Most won't even do it for that.


You can double your teaching salary by coming to my company and drive a truck, I tripled mine.  I'm wasting my degree, but I'm being well compensated to do it. If you need the money bad enough you will move on. Until that time don't whine you sound like a farmer and your hands aren't even dirty.

[BUGEYE]

EQ, my wife has 2 nephews that have made a good living and a good living for 2 other guys with their 4 trucks.  it's a hard job but somebody has to do it.

[gomerdog]

From the outside looking in, many occupations appear to be cushy and overpaid. A person can't really comment knowingly without having actually experienced being in that person's shoes. So, if you really want to convince the rest of us of how well teachers have it made, I have a suggestion: Those of you who feel this way, go back to school and invest the time and money necessary to earn a teaching degree. It should only take a few years and many thousands of dollars to achieve that. Then spend the time and money necessary to secure a teaching job. Teach for a few years, say three at the minimum, and then come back and report to us how well you have it made.
 
If you are not willing to do that, and still insist on vilifying those of us in the teaching profession, then you are just blowing smoke. I have a tough time taking you seriously.

[gypsyman]

Putting a salary on a teacher, is like asking somebody what is the best pick up truck made. Right now, my 13 year old has 5 teachers in his middle school he has class's with. I met them when the school year started. 3 of them could get double what they make, and still be underpaid, as far as I'm concerned. One of his male teacher seems more interested in football than teaching,and really doesn't spend as much time teaching. He made the comment at the parents/teacher meeting to my wife, as to, I wonder why over half my class is barely passing. Sorry, thats the teacher, not the kids. And, the last one, spent her time telling us, about a snorkleing trip she did with her brother in the '90's, instead of what she was going to concentrate on for school work. Both of them are overpaid as far as I'm concerned. Teachers should be paid for their performance, not their seniority. But, the unions will make sure that doesn't happen. gypsyman

[Empty Quiver]

Teach for a few years, say three at the minimum, and then come back and report to us how well you have it made.
 
If you are not willing to do that, and still insist on vilifying those of us in the teaching profession, then you are just blowing smoke. I have a tough time taking you seriously.

Here's the thing. I don't have to do all that, the market place has done it already.


If you are in fact a teacher and cannot understand the basic principles of suppy and demand economics I am wasteing band width here. If you are not compensated appropriatly, I would suggest moving on to another career.


 Mc Donalds has a group of people working for them who feed a goodly part of this nation every day. How much should a person intrusted with feeding people be paid? How much more important than food does it get?


Your councelor led you down a path that does not pay all that well. So did mine. Feel fortunate your skills are marketable. He could have steered you towards a political science degree with a minor in art studies. Furthermore I'm pretty sure the teaching profession has always payed poorly, my grandfather quit shortly after marrying my grandmother because...wait for it... he wasn't making any money.    This was before WWII and he was an administrator, the principal.


Finally were you to go back to my original comments they were to the effect that teachers are paid EXACTLY what they are worth not under, not over.

[gomerdog]

Empty Quiver,
 
My comments weren't directed specifically at you, but more towards those who insist (or at least imply emphatically) that teachers have a job for which they are overly compensated. I believe that is the title of this thread, and was the OP's opinion. I take issue with that.
 
None of my comments indicated that I felt I was not compensated adequately. I simply feel that those who criticize what a teacher (or a member of any occupation) earns should either put up or shut up.
 
I am in fact a teacher...for 23 years. No one counseled me down this path. I entered into it willingly and still find it rewarding in ways other than financially.
 
 

[mcwoodduck]

I have a quick question.
If we reverse the question about paying teachers.  If we really over paid teachers.  let's say tripple current salary levels.
Would he kids learn more?  would throwing more money at the teachers produce better students?
WIll over paying teachers produce students that understand our form of government, our economic system, the banking systme and how it creates money and wealth.  Will the kids beable to read and write, form a logical arguments and back them up with facts?
So far the history of throwing money at schools has provided the exact opposite.  And only supports the argument to take more and more money out of the schools.
After all if you hired a plumber to fix a drain and they don't you really do not want ot pay them.  If you take your car to a mechanic you don't want it to start every third day, or stop every other time you apply the brakes.  You would not spen more on a handgun that doesn't work than one that does.  Clearly private schools are cheaper per student than public schools and better educate the students.  Why wouldn't we fire all public teachers and privatize all schools and better educate our kids? 
Would it help if we charged parents of failing kids 3 to 5 thousand dollars?  3 for a D student and 5 for a failing student.  Will this motivate the parents to get involved? Will it motivate the parents to have kids that do not act up in class and disrupt the other kids.
If they fail to pay the kid is not enrolled the following year. 

[Empty Quiver]

Simply paying someone more will not change the outcome. You would need to lure those more capable away from other career choices. There are those who are perfectly capable of teaching and who could do an outstanding job who will not work for the amount of money offered.

[DDZ]

 Finally were you to go back to my original comments they were to the effect that teachers are paid EXACTLY what they are worth not under, not over.

How does this work? With the teacher unions setting pay scale, which is determined by how much service a teacher has, not by how well a teacher performes their job. This would be true if schools were privatly owned, where the best teachers would make more, and the poor performers would make less, or not have a job. With a union in place it kind of breeds laziness, because unions protect laziness. So some teachers are over paid and some are under paid. Please don't try and lead us into the thaught that all teachers are under paid. Or for that matter all are paid what they are worth. If teachers want to have credibility with the public, band together and get rid of the union.
 
Some of you seem to think that a college degree should dictate a big salary. I don't care if a teacher has ten degrees. It does not make them a good teacher. Doing a good job comes from the heart, not by how much money you paid for your education. Or how many years you have been teaching. School districts can not only pay poor performers less money, they can't get rid of them either. On the other hand school districts can't reward their best teachers. Some of the teachers here complain about being under paid, but never mention the union they are part of sets the scale. 

[XD40SC]

After all if you hired a plumber to fix a drain and they don't you really do not want ot pay them.  If you take your car to a mechanic you don't want it to start every third day, or stop every other time you apply the brakes.  You would not spen more on a handgun that doesn't work than one that does.
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BUT- the drain, the car, the handgun, don't have a free will and refuse to be fixed no matter how hard you try. There is a huge difference between dealing with inanimate objects and living organisms.

[XD40SC]

 Finally were you to go back to my original comments they were to the effect that teachers are paid EXACTLY what they are worth not under, not over.

How does this work? With the teacher unions setting pay scale, which is determined by how much service a teacher has, not by how well a teacher performes their job. This would be true if schools were privatly owned, where the best teachers would make more, and the poor performers would make less, or not have a job. With a union in place it kind of breeds laziness, because unions protect laziness. So some teachers are over paid and some are under paid. Please don't try and lead us into the thaught that all teachers are under paid. Or for that matter all are paid what they are worth. If teachers want to have credibility with the public, band together and get rid of the union.
 
Some of you seem to think that a college degree should dictate a big salary. I don't care if a teacher has ten degrees. It does not make them a good teacher. Doing a good job comes from the heart, not by how much money you paid for your education. Or how many years you have been teaching. School districts can not only pay poor performers less money, they can't get rid of them either. On the other hand school districts can't reward their best teachers. Some of the teachers here complain about being under paid, but never mention the union they are part of sets the scale.

That didn't happen where I worked. Can you give me specific examples where that works for teachers?

[Empty Quiver]

 Finally were you to go back to my original comments they were to the effect that teachers are paid EXACTLY what they are worth not under, not over.

How does this work? With the teacher unions setting pay scale, which is determined by how much service a teacher has, not by how well a teacher performes their job. This would be true if schools were privatly owned, where the best teachers would make more, and the poor performers would make less, or not have a job. With a union in place it kind of breeds laziness, because unions protect laziness. So some teachers are over paid and some are under paid. Please don't try and lead us into the thaught that all teachers are under paid. Or for that matter all are paid what they are worth. If teachers want to have credibility with the public, band together and get rid of the union.
 
Some of you seem to think that a college degree should dictate a big salary. I don't care if a teacher has ten degrees. It does not make them a good teacher. Doing a good job comes from the heart, not by how much money you paid for your education. Or how many years you have been teaching. School districts can not only pay poor performers less money, they can't get rid of them either. On the other hand school districts can't reward their best teachers. Some of the teachers here complain about being under paid, but never mention the union they are part of sets the scale.

Are you implying teachers get everything they wish for during contract negotiations? There is a teacher lockout somewhere every fall. At the end of every negotiation both sides feel like they were cheated and got what they wanted at the same time. So again they are payed EXACTLY what they are worth.


The good to excellant teachers are carrying the poor ones on their backs just like in every other profession. Think of what you could do with the money taken out of your check every friday to support welfare recipients.


Think about how much easier it would be to do your job if the fella next to you weren't hung over every morning. He's only doing 80% of your work load but unfortunately he is all there is available for the pay offered. Perhaps you are selling yourself short, perhaps the company really only expects the 80% and you are a fool to work as hard as you do. Perhaps between the two of you output is meeting expectations and the company has no reason to care.


For the teachers union, for the school board, and for most parents, education is simply a task that must be performed. Few are mentally invested in the end. The board hires teachers based on what the union says it will provide to meet the requirements presented. The students fill out the test answers, having learned little more than test answers in many cases. The parents deliver the kids each morning to the state funded daycare and find them at home each evening with a tested paper to be initialed. The school board collects the test results and delivers them to a State Dept of Education Office. Months later the board receives a letter stating the test results are within standards. Everyone can now say the task has been accomplished. That task being getting the LETTER of APPROVAL from the state.


Individual excellence is neither rewarded nor desired. We do not want to hurt anyones feelings.

[DDZ]

No I'm not implying that teachers get everything they wish for. Why do the teachers need union brass that never have the students or the tax payers best intersets in mind bargaining for them? I really can't see how every teacher is paid what they are worth, when a union is involved. Teachers in a union are not paid per performance. No one in a union is.
Yes the good teachers are carrying the poor performers on their backs, but its not like every other profession. In a private business with no union, the poor performers don't have a job, period. 
 
Think about how much easier it would be to do your job if the fella next to you weren't hung over every morning. He's only doing 80% of your work load but unfortunately he is all there is available for the pay offered. Perhaps you are selling yourself short, perhaps the company really only expects the 80% and you are a fool to work as hard as you do. Perhaps between the two of you output is meeting expectations and the company has no reason to care.

If you work in a union the union will protect the guys job that comes in hung over every day. If the union isn't present, the hung over guy doesn't have a job. I really don't think that there is a company out there that expects only 80% out of their employees. Those that give a 100% should be compensted, and those that give 80% should have their pay ajusted accordingly or be fired. It should be up to the ones writing pay checks. Its the way it works in a business where there is no union. Where is the incentive to give 100% if you are going to make the same as the guy giving 80%? The union doesn't really care, its all about everyone being equal. When everyone is not. 
     

[XD40SC]

Students are like the members on this forum. Most will follow the rules. Those that won't,simple refuse to. Who should be blamed for those who refuse to follow the rules?

[Empty Quiver]

I think it used to be called personal responsibility. Held responsible for their own actions I say.

[XD40SC]

 School districts can not only pay poor performers less money, "they can't get rid of them either. "
That also didn't happen where I worked. Can you list specific examples?

[ironglow]

School districts can not only pay poor performers less money, "they can't get rid of them either. "
That also didn't happen where I worked. Can you list specific examples?

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    XD40...Try these examples;
 
  http://thehiddencostsoftenure.com/stories/?prcss=display&id=266546
 
   http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/11/06/unions-good-bad-teachers-bad-kids
 
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           BTW:  Thanks to all the folks who thanked the vets..

[ironglow]

      As Empty Quiver pointed out;
         I think we are losing sight of the real criteria for one's pay level.  Frankly, it should be adjusted according to performance... Some jobs get a higher pay level because the worker is willing to take risks..which was true when I worked "high steel' and worked in areas where cave-in was possible.
     Through this entire thread i have not been referring to teachers who hold their jobs competitively and are truly qualified iun their positions.  I live in NY State..where shown in recent cases in decaying city, teachers are not fired because the court costs would run $235,000 and up.  John Stossel pointed out the "Big Apple", where incompetent teachers spend their days in 'rubber rooms'..where they can't retard students development.
...It's the unions which make this mess !
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  Regardless of his education level (which isn't mentioned)..   How much should a man like Pvt John Stafinski get paid for the following work..how much pay would YOU want ?
   An Army private gets about $17,000 per year, about $327 per week..in a combat area he's on duty/in danger 24/7..so that's about $1.95 per hour.  Oh yes, add a few more bucks for combat pay!
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            "
U.S. Army Pvt. John Stafinski, a native of Seville, Ohio, fires his M-249 squad automatic weapon during a three-hour gun battle with insurgent fighters in Kunar province, Afghanistan's Waterpur Valley, Nov. 3. Stafinski is an infantryman with Company C, 2nd Battalion, 12th Infantry Regiment, 4th Infantry Division, based out of Fort Carson, Colo. (U.S. Army photo/Sgt. Matthew Moeller)
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  So...How many $$$ would you want..to work at his job ? 
   
     The OWS protesters are whining because they can't get $30 per hour...of course, as soldiers they would have to be neat and clean when not in combat...    

[DDZ]

Here are some I found in five minutes. If you want to see more, why not do some looking on your own.   
 
 
http://hiddenviolations.com/stories/?prcss=display&id=358758

http://blog.timesunion.com/schools/firing-bad-teachers-nearly-impossible/1459/

http://www.care2.com/causes/wanted-bad-teachers-for-tenure.html

http://schoolmatch.com/audit/jacksonville/articles/teach1.htm

http://schoolmatch.com/audit/jacksonville/articles/teach1.htm

[XD40SC]

In the state I worked, If a teacher got 2 unsatisfactory ratings, he was out. Each state must be different. It take alot of observations to fire a teacher for incompetency. Observations from the principal, assistant supervisor and the supervisor. But is has been done. It is the job of administrators to make sure the teachers are up to par.