Teachers overpaid

[Casull]

Interesting article.  Sort of confirms my suspicions.
 
 
http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2011/11/04/teachers-are-actually-overpaid-says-report/?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl10%7Csec1_lnk3%7C110490

[guzzijohn]

Okay, okay. I give up. My six years of college and 60 some other college hours that I had to pay for to keep my license is only worth minimum wage and no benefits. Even with that some would bitch that teachers are overpaid. The article point out several times that what appears to be over pay may not be. It would really be interesting what quality of teachers you would have if they are only paid about 25K a year and minimal benefits. Flame on everyone, I have my fire suit on.
GuzziJohn

[BUGEYE]

there are two(2) kinds of teaching jobs.  first is districts with a white majority who make their kids behave in class.  those teachers may be over paid.
the other kind is mostly minority schools where the teachers can't teach because of having to spend all their time with disipline because the single mommas WON'T make their kids behave.
the teachers in the second group are saints if they don't quit. they are underpaid.

[guzzijohn]

It is not just single momma kids that don't behave! About 12 years ago I taught in a fairly up scale school. I had one class that by November five of the students were on long term suspensions or in jail. At least second semester went smoother.
GuzziJohn

[BUGEYE]

when I was in school they would suspend you twice, third time you were expelled.
nobody wanted to do the year over, so they settled down after strike two.

[DDZ]

Mine too Casull. All we have heard is, if we want our children to have a better education teachers need to be paid more. Considering what it costs per student in this country we should have the smartest high school graduates there is, but that is kind of far from the truth. Must be the kids fault that they are so uneducated. Or the parents fault. It certainly can't be the education system since we heap mounds of money on it. Anyone have an idea how much more teachers should be making, to get our kids at least up to average graduating intelligence as the rest of the world.
Why are many other countries not having problems educating their children? They must certainly have bad kids like we do. I'm sure some bad parents also. Or could it be the liberals and feminists in this country have about reached their agenda of destroying the traditional family, where a single parent, or two mommies or two daddies are raising our future, and we are seeing the results in our schools.

The liberals have made it impossible to punish unruly children in schools any more. If the consequences were grave enough for bad behavior, their attitudes would get adjusted. It generally works all the time. Then again we can't punish them, it might hurt their self esteem.     

[ironglow]

Okay, okay. I give up. My six years of college and 60 some other college hours that I had to pay for to keep my license is only worth minimum wage and no benefits. Even with that some would bitch that teachers are overpaid. The article point out several times that what appears to be over pay may not be. It would really be interesting what quality of teachers you would have if they are only paid about 25K a year and minimal benefits. Flame on everyone, I have my fire suit on.
GuzziJohn

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  Jeepers Guzzi;
       You seem to forget, teachers do not work the same hours other working people do.  Here's one website which shows how many days they actually do work.     http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/how-many-days-per-year-does-a-teacher-work/question-1552159/
    Let's see now; 154 days ..that's 1232 hours...   Now, most teachers around here with any real "seniority" get anywhere from $50K to $80K per year...    At $50K..that's  $40.58 per hour....at $80K, that's $64.94 per hour.. Then comes medical insurance (free in some schools), a gold plated retirement.  Now try placing the medical and retirement into the per year wages...  Not hard to guesstimate that many teachers, when bennies and retirement are included , easily clear $100 per hour..
   I don't know what your wages are but many are right in league with what I said..  http://articles.businessinsider.com/2010-02-15/news/30032222_1_school-superintendent-school-day-teacher-salaries
 
The thing which brings tears to one's eyes... is my grandaughter goes to a Christian school, just 300 yards from the local middle school and 600 yards from the high school.  The youngsters bin the Christian school are getting a better education than those in the public school.  Their parents get almost none of their value from school taxes..nor do we who no longer send kids to public school.
        Tuition at the Christian school about $1800 per year..  Cost per student/year at public school $16,500...
 
  This is exactly why vouchers arte the way to go...competition improves EVERYTHING !
 

[guzzijohn]

Ironglow,
What you posted may take place in some places, especially with areas that have a high cost of living. In Kansas I make a decent wage and most other teachers and related positions do, but we are far from fat cats. As I have posted before most districts have a 7.5 hour a day teacher contract but most teachers that are any good put in 60+ hours a week. Most good teachers spend at least 20+ hours a week through the summer with required classes and prep for the next year. In Kansas your retirement pay will be about 40-50% of what you made when working, no medical or anything else. At this time more than $400 a month is taken out of my check for that.
GuzziJohn

[ironglow]

Perhaps you live/teach in the wrong place.  Here in the People's Republik of NY, they are just as lucratively paid as those in RI, if not more so.
  ..but that is not surprising, NY is among the "bluest" of states and in keeping with that designation, their account books must look much like those of Greece.  Our state is run by unrealistic liberals..primarily from the east coast, higher population areas.
  Thus they are beholden to the unions,,and just keep raising taxes..       ..Can't go on forever..

[DDZ]

IG, not sure how it is in NY, but in SW Pa. There is a long waiting line for college grads waiting to get a teaching job.I figure if the job was so horrible, and the pay was not that good, the line would not be so long. It has been like this for years. I know someone that lives near buy that weighted ten years before he got a full time teaching job. Must be something good about it. 

[ironglow]

    I find it remarkable that some people decide early on that they are going to spend their life in one school scenario or another.   How many people among us start school at 3 to 5 years of age and go from pre school.. to grade school.. to middle school.. to high school .. to college.. and on to working in a school.
  Can most of us consider just how narrow a field of observance these people must have ?
   Not all but many, never work at a heavy, hard day-to-day work, never serve in the military, never worked as a dishwasher, grease-monkey or digging a ditch.  Many never served in the military and had to answer to the call to reveillee or the experience of falling out in full battle gear.
   Most do not know in their present working life, the anxiety of wondering if they will be the next one "laid off'. Most do not know the experience of working HARD, every hour of every day in the blistering heat of a west Texas summer or the freezing cold of a winter around the Great lakes..or the need to go out and "scare up" some extra work..to feed his kids..
 
   Still, we are faced every day with college professors from ivy league schools...trying to tell us what we should think and how we should live...
  Kids fresh into college may fall for that tripe (they don't know better)...but for we who have "been there, done that", these profs come off as "real life bimboes".

[Singleshotsam]

Not all but many, never work at a heavy, hard day-to-day work, never serve in the military, never worked as a dishwasher, grease-monkey or digging a ditch.  Many never served in the military and had to answer to the call to reveillee or the experience of falling out in full battle gear.
   Most do not know in their present working life, the anxiety of wondering if they will be the next one "laid off'. Most do not know the experience of working HARD, every hour of every day in the blistering heat of a west Texas summer or the freezing cold of a winter around the Great lakes..or the need to go out and "scare up" some extra work..to feed his kids..

What a poor arguement...
 
Here's why it's a poor arguement:
 
A.)  Rather than fact, all of what you have stated is opinion.  An opinion most likely based on the fact that you feel this way due to poor decisions in your own life. 
 
B.)  Most do not know what it's like to be a grease monkey, ditch digger, frozen toe, sweaty balls style of life because:
      1.)  Most teachers are women.
      2.)  The group you speak of chose to get an education.  Getting an education leads away from a lifetime of back
            breaking, minimum wage labor and puts you in a better position to lead an easier lifestyle.  (I see no problem there.)
 
If your looking at the minority of large city Federally, State, and City funded schools, then your looking at a minority view.  The majority of smaller rural town schools have teachers who stay after school to help support extra caricular activities, such as clubs, sporting teams, tutoring, dentention duty, not to mention staying late nights supervising sporting events.  They don't work 3 months out of the year but they don't get paid for the extra 20+ hours they are at work during the week either so it all works out in the end.   
 

[ironglow]

Not all but many, never work at a heavy, hard day-to-day work, never serve in the military, never worked as a dishwasher, grease-monkey or digging a ditch.  Many never served in the military and had to answer to the call to reveillee or the experience of falling out in full battle gear.
   Most do not know in their present working life, the anxiety of wondering if they will be the next one "laid off'. Most do not know the experience of working HARD, every hour of every day in the blistering heat of a west Texas summer or the freezing cold of a winter around the Great lakes..or the need to go out and "scare up" some extra work..to feed his kids..

What a poor arguement...
 
Here's why it's a poor arguement:
 
A.)  Rather than fact, all of what you have stated is opinion.  An opinion most likely based on the fact that you feel this way due to poor decisions in your own life. 
 
B.)  Most do not know what it's like to be a grease monkey, ditch digger, frozen toe, sweaty balls style of life because:
      1.)  Most teachers are women.
      2.)  The group you speak of chose to get an education.  Getting an education leads away from a lifetime of back
            breaking, minimum wage labor and puts you in a better position to lead an easier lifestyle.  (I see no problem there.)
 
If your looking at the minority of large city Federally, State, and City funded schools, then your looking at a minority view.  The majority of smaller rural town schools have teachers who stay after school to help support extra caricular activities, such as clubs, sporting teams, tutoring, dentention duty, not to mention staying late nights supervising sporting events.  They don't work 3 months out of the year but they don't get paid for the extra 20+ hours they are at work during the week either so it all works out in the end.   

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  Well singleshot;
   You took your shot and scored a "maggies drawers"..
   
    I am not talking about 'choices'..but I am talking about 'experience' and people who only know one facet of life.  You don't know a thing about my life, but I can tell you I have been successful at what I set out to do. Many of the people mentioned, as in the military and technical fields are highly educated. 
   I would expect that most here would concur that such a grevious lack of life experience, would disqualify such an individual from trying to instruct others as to what choices they are to make or what opinions they are to hold; they just don't have a sufficent "frame of reference".
 
  Still, others are highly educated in a technical sense and are also highly educated in a 'life experience' sense, thus achieving a more balanced perspective.  I still believe that the very ones you are defending are too often technically educated only, ...long on advice and short on everyday wisdom.
   
      BTW; Please do not try to twist what I said, as you did in your statement.. B),  I don't  employ such crudities... maybe it's the 'education level' which makes the difference !     ..only kidding..

[Pat/Rick]

If a person goes to college does it automatically put them in a category of being worth X amount of dollars per year? Or, should pay be based on experience and performance instead of being guaranteed by a union?
 
I've always busted my hump at my blue collar jobs, set production records,efficiency records,lowest rework percentage of coworkers, sat on liaison comittees for design review, and cost reduction, and did not hang out with the pop the pooch crowd,but I never made any more than the company's top pay scale. The key was, is that I was free to go elsewhere at any time if I didn't like it. I always paid my bills and raised my family within my means and even managed some pretty nice vacations.
 
 It all boils down to, There's nobody forcing anybody to work anyplace. If you want more money go to work for somebody that pays more. If that field requires long term education to achieve, work for it. If a field pays more than what a student decides to major in, whose fault is it? Want more money? Work more hours. Get your skills, man up, go to work, and quit whining.

[Bugflipper]

I can appreciate Pat/Ricks post. In general teaching has always been known as an underpaid field. That happens to be what this thread is about, some feel it still is, some feel it is no longer. Going in, the individual knows they will need 4, 6, 8 or more years of college to work in the profession. If they didn't get a full ride they started in the hole to begin with the first day on the job(if they get one). To feel a sense of entitlement is askew in my rationalization. Had that education been oriented towards a different profession their salary could have been much greater. To know going in what to expect and grumble down the road is akin to Einstein's quote on insanity.


 On a personal note I could work in a different profession and make more money. I choose to do what I enjoy and make a little less. To offset what I want and what I actually have I also work a farm. In doing so I make the same as I would in the higher paying career field. Each individual can succeed to the level they wish regardless of their education level. It just takes the desire to do so. I don't see it as blue collar vs. white collar. Just the drive in each individual. My post is not really for or against teachers. It's just more along the lines of what Pat/Rick wrote. Our choices in life dictate the outcome.

[guzzijohn]

Yes, I knew about what to expect pay wise when I went into the field and I have lived with that just fine. What gripes me is that some of the posters, especially in previous related threads want the pay reduced to semi skilled pay ranks and think teachers have the world's most cushy job. I would not make any claims of that sort about any job that I have not actually done myself but there sure seems to be a lot of "education experts" on this board that have never taught.
GuzziJohn

[ironglow]

  I think you should notice that my post was not concerning pay scale, but rather, how many teachers seem to have an arrogance about their own 'cleverness'..and trying to tell others how to think/live and what they should believe.  I simply pointed out that if a person has confined the totality of their experience to a singular endeavor for their entire life..their ability for effective circumspection is much diminished.
   Now that the wage question is being pressed, and singleshot Sam has admitted that teachers primarily entered the field to avoid hard work, get more pay, and have  a cushy job,  I will undertake the subject.  We see teachers in Wisconsin and many other places complaining that they do not get paid enough.  In actuality, on a nationwide basis, teachers get paid very well indeed, for every hour they work.  Let's have a look;
   http://www.myshortpencil.com/hourlyearnings.htm
 
  For those who did not click on the link, below is an hourly rate schedule on a nationwide average.  As you can see, many people who have fully as much education, do not collect near as much per hour...and that, without considering the lucrative retirement available. 
  Are secondary school teachers really worth more than engineers, architects and surveyors ?  How about pharmacists ?  How about medical & health managers and economists ?
  So why the difference, why do teachers get more pay than other professionals ?  The other guys can be fired,  and don't have a blood-sucking union that has contributed million$$$ to politicians....who find it easy to hand out more of the taxpayer's money..
 
 

 

[BUGEYE]

My problem with teachers is tenure.  nobody should have that.  and having a union hold a gun to the head of taxpayers is wrong.
temured teachers are like baseball players that get a fat contract. they quit playing good ball.
if they hit a flyball, they peel off halfway to first and head for the dugout.

compare that with a minor league player who hits that flyball.  he will go wide open all the way to first base in case the defender drops the ball.
but when he moves up to the majors and gets a contract, he starts peeling off.

[Singleshotsam]

Ok, first of all that chart is way out of date.  1999.  So you forcing facts on us that are more than a decade old...

Second of all, that's a national average based on what a teacher is CONTRACTED on, not what more than 80% actually work. 
 
My brother and sister in law both started off their educated careers in teaching.  She is a grade school teacher and he started out teaching H.S History.  Neither one of them are driving Jaguars.  They don't live a new house.  They don't eat steak for dinner every night.  Any time I've tried to get him to do something after school at night, say catch a game or take them out to dinner the reply i get is "Sorry but I've got to grade papers tonite."  Or "Sorry, I've got to help supervise a ball game." 

They put in way more than 36.5 hours a week in actual work to sustain their careers.  They do not belong to a teachers union, nor do they want to.  So why don't you goolgle a report that actually takes half a brain to figure out what a teacher salary is based on a 50-60 hour work week rather than the decade old, biased dribble you just drug up out of a Google cache.

OR better yet, why don't we take a look into other careers that get supplimented by federal and state tax dollars.  Take the agricultural industry for instance.  Farmers take in LOADS of federal and state subsidies on a yearly basis yet I don't ever see you post on here your outrage about how a farmer spends his life from age 3-5 until he dies doing nothing but farm related activities.  How a farmer has a skewed outlook on life because it's the only thing he's ever done and how he is always pushing his views and agenda on you...  I guess maybe all that dirt and heat make up for it though...

[BUGEYE]

Ok, first of all that chart is way out of date.  1999.  So you forcing facts on us that are more than a decade old...

Second of all, that's a national average based on what a teacher is CONTRACTED on, not what more than 80% actually work. 
 
My brother and sister in law both started off their educated careers in teaching.  She is a grade school teacher and he started out teaching H.S History.  Neither one of them are driving Jaguars.  They don't live a new house.  They don't eat steak for dinner every night.  Any time I've tried to get him to do something after school at night, say catch a game or take them out to dinner the reply i get is "Sorry but I've got to grade papers tonite."  Or "Sorry, I've got to help supervise a ball game." 

They put in way more than 36.5 hours a week in actual work to sustain their careers.  They do not belong to a teachers union, nor do they want to.  So why don't you goolgle a report that actually takes half a brain to figure out what a teacher salary is based on a 50-60 hour work week rather than the decade old, biased dribble you just drug up out of a Google cache.

OR better yet, why don't we take a look into other careers that get supplimented by federal and state tax dollars.  Take the agricultural industry for instance.  Farmers take in LOADS of federal and state subsidies on a yearly basis yet I don't ever see you post on here your outrage about how a farmer spends his life from age 3-5 until he dies doing nothing but farm related activities.  How a farmer has a skewed outlook on life because it's the only thing he's ever done and how he is always pushing his views and agenda on you...  I guess maybe all that dirt and heat make up for it though...

If I had made that "half a brain" remark I'd be banned.  just sayin.

[ironglow]

  As far as salaries are concerned...they have only gone UP since 1999.
  I don't know where your brother & sister-in-law worked, but they must have picked the wrong place.  My brother & sister-in-law each worked at high schools in the nearby eastern suburbs of Rochester, NY.  They retired several years ago and between the two pulled down $105K per year, via their teacher's retirement alone.  They vacation Europe every year..they especially enjoy Tuscany.
   I don't mind their affluence and I don't envy it, that was their plan.  I just get a bit weary of the continual "poor mouth" drivel we continually get from the teacher's unions.  The same unions which fail to put the alloted money in for the retirement fund but give it to Democrat  politician's campaigns...then the politicians "bail out' the teacher retirement funds..cozy arrangement, huh ?
  BTW: the teachers in my grandaughter's Christian school (K-12) make do with no more than $200-$300 per week on average..but they are dedicated to their work and don't bellyache continually.

[quasne.inc]

You realize not all teachers work in New York.  Those that work out in the sticks dont get paid half of what they do there.  Try googling wages by area and occupation and go to the BLS.gov website. 
 
My wife is going to school to be a teacher and neither of us support unions or tenure.  I think tenure is the dumbest idea ever.  I had teachers in high school that once they got tenure they didnt give a crap about us kids and you could tell it right off. 
 
The real problem, if you want to talk about wages, is actors and sports stars.  They definantly dont need to be paid millions to do what they do. 

[ironglow]

  Quoting Bugeye;
  " If I had made that "half a brain" remark I'd be banned.  just sayin".
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   Bugeye;  I just considered the source, "half a brain" accusations come from "half a brain"....        Plus, I figured even if I did complain, it wouldn't do any good anyway.
 
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  quasne;
  I do "live in the sticks", unlike my brother who lives near Rochester..but the same rules apply here.  This is a "blue" state and the liberal politicians will continue to court the unions with blood sucked from taxpayers.  ....And they will keep doing it until they break the state.
  They are not alone. the state police I understand, start at $60K right out of the academy and go up from there..
 
    If you & your wife have nothing to do with unions, tenure and the rest of the scam...obviously what I said does not apply to you, you have no need to take umbrage..  In fact, your wife's experience from the sound of it, ios more closely related to Christian school teachers.  Perhaps she may wan to go that way...and teach in a classroom which has discipline as a regular feature.

[BUGEYE]

most pilots are college educated and most have military flying experience.
however, they start at a lower salary than a teacher when they sign on with an airline.
albeit, they only had to dodge missles and anti-aircraft fire etc.  where teachers have to dodge spitballs etc.

[guzzijohn]

True, most pilots start at very low wages but regular airline captains are making well over 100K during the peak of their careers.
GuzziJohn

[BUGEYE]

True, most pilots start at very low wages but regular airline captains are making well over 100K during the peak of their careers.
GuzziJohn

true, but that classroom is not 35000ft up.  the classroom won't have to land in the east river. (see sully)  or land in poland "wheels up"
in those situations 500K is not too much.

[quasne.inc]

I dont take umbrage.  I just enjoy a good debate.  I dont know much about nothing, so when there is something I know little about I like to jump in and participate.  My wife has thought about teaching at a private school, possbily christian just to stay out of the BS. 
 

[DDZ]

Maybe some of the teachers can answer the question as why do American students score lower in math, science, and reading compared to many other countries that spend way less per student than we do? What do you ex and present teachers think is the problem? Since us people that never taught don't know what we are talking about.

The standing of our republic will be determined by the foundation of our educational system, and that foundation is falling apart.
 Jesus said in Luke 6:40 "Every student, when he is fully trained, will be like his teacher". Is it fair to question whether students falling academic scores are linked to students becoming like their teachers?

[BUGEYE]

In the 86/87 school year we had an exchange student from holland. she aced the senior year without cracking a book. she had learned it in elementary school.  she spoke 3 or 4 languages and knew more american history than most americans.  our system is in shambles.

[Singleshotsam]

   Bugeye;  I just considered the source, "half a brain" accusations come from "half a brain"....    

Same applies to you there as well Ironglow... I'll just agree to disagree and choose to follow fact over half brained opinions...