Teachers overpaid

[Singleshotsam]

Let's modernize this arguement a bit gentlemen... Looking on the Bureau of Labor Statics website which last updated in 2010, here is a listing of top 25 highest earning jobs in the U.S.  Data is from a 2008 study.  Almost 10 years later than what Ironglow posted.
 
So what I interpret is that looking at a teachers salary the correct way, by annual income rather than some BS inaccurate hourly breakdown, is that your better off becoming an oral surgeon, dentist, airline pilot, air traffic controller, ect ect than being a teacher. 
 
http://www.bls.gov/oco/content/oohinfo_faq.stm#earn4
 
 

Occupations with the highest median annual wages, May 2008  Occupation Median Annual Wages Oral and maxillofacial surgeons greater than $166,400 Orthodontists greater than $166,400 Prosthodontists greater than $166,400 Physicians and surgeons greater than $166,400 Chief executives 158,560 Dentists, general 142,870 Dentists, all other specialists 137,970 Engineering managers 115,270 Podiatrists 113,560 Natural sciences managers 112,800 Computer and information systems managers 112,210 Air traffic controllers 111,870 Airline pilots, copilots, and flight engineers 111,680 Lawyers 110,590 Judges, magistrate judges, and magistrates 110,220 Marketing managers 108,580 Petroleum engineers 108,020 Pharmacists 106,410 Political scientists 104,130 Physicists 102,890 Astronomers 101,300 Financial managers 99,330 Computer and information scientists, research 97,970 Computer hardware engineers 97,400 Sales managers 97,260 Source: BLS Occupational Employment Statistics, May 2008

[Casull]

Well, don't forget to convert that for 8 month's of work a year.    

[ironglow]

Apples & oranges.. quit whining...    

[Singleshotsam]

Well, don't forget to convert that for 8 month's of work a year.   

     

That has nothing to do with it.  Look at the annual income.  That's how you determine accurately how much a teacher makes and if they are over paid or underpaid.  Looking at in any other way is falsifying information to bend it to your skewed opinion.   

 

Apples & oranges.. quit whining...    

   

No it's not apples and oranges.  It's a fair apples to apples compairison.  Look at the yearly data. 

Just because you don't feel like doing some legwork to educate yourself on the matter doesn't mean it makes yearly salary data completely different.  Who gives a crap what a teacher gets paid on an hourly basis if they only make 50k in a high paying district through a teachers union.  The other 85% of teachers aren't making that.  Lots of them aren't in a union, and as two different educators have pointed out on this very discussion, they do not like the concept of tenure.   

So, I think this is a case of physician treat thyself in the whining department.  I guess the old adage with age comes wisdome gets proven wrong in this arguement as well   My advice is edcuate yourself on a matter before you decide to go off on a half cocked tanget and then try to cover it up with skewed opinion stated as fact in order to keep yourself from looking ignorant.   

Ironglow.  Which teacher in your life made you feel so inadequate that you have to go around trying to bust their chops for making a legitamate career decision.   

[ironglow]

  SSS;
 
        I was never intimidated by a teacher, and I would sincerely hope I never intimidated anyone when I was teaching.
        I think most here have noticed your rudeness in your replies.  Your arrogance whatever it's source, is plainly evident !
             Clearly, your arrogance is showing and ironically, that is what this thread is supposed to be discussing.
         
                     Apples and oranges, of course..  I don't know where the subject of your objections works..but according to your description they don't belong to a teacher's union, don't have 'tenure' benefits and are subject to dismissal for substandard work...Just like the other professions mentioned.  If those are the facts, then the generalizations I outlined don't apply to you..so why complain ?
  I have spoken of the schools which are not generally represented by unions; charter, Christian & private schools, so naturally I am concerned if your subject teaches in public school and is NOT covered by a union.  Where do they teach that this is not either optional or required ?
    BTW:  FYI.. I do live "in the sticks" by preference, but the local public school is as corrupt as any nanny-state school.

[BUGEYE]

my wifes hourly wage sounds real good until you divide it up for 12 months. then it's not so much.
but she's only a bookkeeper.
her sister retired from this county with a larger retirement than my wife makes for working.
now this county is broke and every employee got cut except the teachers.

[reliquary]

Well, let me jump in here. 
 
I retired from the Army in '86, got certified to teach Science in Texas, and went to work full-time at that in '93.  I retired from it in '08.  My highest salary was about $38K per year and because I didn't put in a full teaching career, I retired with about 1/3 of that.
 
I worked at 4 schools.  Most teachers I worked with were overpaid for the amount of hours and effort they put in.  I include myself in that condemnation, even though I put in a lot more than 40 hours per week. 
 
All coaches were overpaid; they got fulltime teaching wages for working not more than half a day in the classrooms teaching things like Health, Driver's Ed, and Life Skills...a few taught Social Studies...a precious few taught science or math...but none of them worked over half a day in the classroom.  The rest of the day they concentrated on sports; they got "coaches' stipends" of up to 10K over teacher pay for that.
 
Fire away....

[Dee]

reliquary, I grew up in Texas public schools, and your description of the job, ESPECIALLY the coaches is erie. However, it is DEAD ON, and was in the fifties, and the sixties as well. Not much has changed, and here's another one for the records here in Texas.
Until it was stopped, teachers in Texas don't pay into "Social Security", but instead pay into "Teacher's Retirement Fund". THEN! They would go to another school, work ONE DAY as a janitor and draw a salary for that one day, and BASED ON THAT SALARY, would APPLY FOR, AND GET! A "Social Security Check" for life to go along with their teachers retirement check. As I said this has been stopped, but the ones that did it, still get their SS, and TR checks.
Not bad money for 8 months of work a year.

[Singleshotsam]

My basis on this topic has and still is that the report Casull posted is biased and skewed.  It lacks taking into consideration several factors such as ACTUAL HOURS WORKED, Money spent out of pocket on items needed for their classrooms that aren't covered by their budget, Money spent on continual higher education classes to retain their teaching certification and so on.  Teacher make an appropriate amount of money for the amount of education they have to take and maintain and the extended hours they actually work.  They don't need to be paid more, but they don't need to have pay cuts.
 
Should teachers be allowed to unionize?  No.  Your made the decision to teach then do so.  You shouldn't be allowed to strike because you feel you aren't making enough money.
 
Should a teacher be allowed tenure?  No.  Pay and job retention should be held on a performance basis.
 
Should a teachers retirement be subsidised by the government?  No.
 
Should a teachers intelligence be insulted by people who think their experts on here?  Hell no. 
 
 

[ironglow]

My basis on this topic has and still is that the report Casull posted is biased and skewed.  It lacks taking into consideration several factors such as ACTUAL HOURS WORKED, Money spent out of pocket on items needed for their classrooms that aren't covered by their budget, Money spent on continual higher education classes to retain their teaching certification and so on.  Teacher make an appropriate amount of money for the amount of education they have to take and maintain and the extended hours they actually work.  They don't need to be paid more, but they don't need to have pay cuts.
 
Should teachers be allowed to unionize?  No.  Your made the decision to teach then do so.  You shouldn't be allowed to strike because you feel you aren't making enough money.
 
Should a teacher be allowed tenure?  No.  Pay and job retention should be held on a performance basis.
 
Should a teachers retirement be subsidised by the government?  No.
 
Should a teachers intelligence be insulted by people who think their experts on here?  Hell no.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
  Obviously the situation you speak of does not reflect the ones I was referring to.  With the criteria you set above you are in agreement..
  Nobody should be insulting the intelligence of anyone.  If you read my original post you will see that I was not referring to intelligence but rather, attitude, and that not by any means being considered a universal attitude among educators.  Intelligence and attitude bear little or no relationship to one another..

[Singleshotsam]

 

Obviously the situation you speak of does not reflect the ones I was referring to.  With the criteria you set above you are in agreement..

What other situation(s) is there other than the one in the article Casull posted?
 

[guzzijohn]

"Not bad money for 8 months of work a year."

[/size]So in Texas students only attend school from September thru April? In Kansas students start around the middle of August and attend until Memorial Day or just a bit before. Most teachers here work by contract for about 9.5 months. Man, those Texas teachers have it made! Also the article that Ironglow posted claimed 154 work days? Where? My on duty contract this year was 195 days. That does not include holidays. Most school districts here allow two personal days and 12-15 sick leave days a year which I am not complaining about, just saying compared to what the article said. [/color]
[/size]GuzziJohn[/color]

[Casull]

 

"Not bad money for 8 months of work a year."

So in Texas students only attend school from September thru April? In Kansas students start around the middle of August and attend until Memorial Day or just a bit before. Most teachers here work by contract for about 9.5 months. Man, those Texas teachers have it made! Also the article that Ironglow posted claimed 154 work days? Where? My on duty contract this year was 195 days. That does not include holidays. Most school districts here allow two personal days and 12-15 sick leave days a year which I am not complaining about, just saying compared to what the article said.
GuzziJohn

       Now, try factoring in the two weeks off at Christmas and the week for spring break.

[Singleshotsam]

You don't factor in those off day's because they are considered part of the annual salary of the teacher.  Again technically they wouldn't get paid for those days off but since it's a salary it all works out roughly even in the end.  Again, combined with overtime they dont' get paid for also combined with classroom materials out of pocket expenses. 
 
"-Not bad for 50+ hours of work per week."

[Casull]

You don't factor in those off day's because they are considered part of the annual salary of the teacher.

 
 
Of course you do, if you consider it an "annual salary".     

[BUGEYE]

You don't factor in those off day's because they are considered part of the annual salary of the teacher.  Again technically they wouldn't get paid for those days off but since it's a salary it all works out roughly even in the end.  Again, combined with overtime they dont' get paid for also combined with classroom materials out of pocket expenses. 
 
"-Not bad for 50+ hours of work per week."

at my wifes school, they are lined up at the sign-out computer at 3:30 sharp.

[ironglow]

   At the Christian school they are quite casual about the time they leave.  often the teachers will stay around to help any students.  I cannot say how many hours most of them put in without pay but they do put in plenty.
  Of course there is a vast difference when the job is tied to something the teacher is deeply involved and dedicated to.

[reliquary]

Dee:  They put a stop to that particular scam a few years back.  Unfortunately, several folks I know did the one-day trick and reaped a lot of benefits from it before it was stopped.  I was offered the chance, but turned it down because I am able to draw Social Security as well as the TRS because I was fully vested in SS prior to starting the teaching career.
 
The last time I worked (2008) Texas teachers were required to be in the classroom 180 days (maybe 181?).  Local districts could get waivers for up to 5 of those days.  So, call it 180 8-hour workdays, for $36K, and that comes out to $25 per hour, which was decent pay    .  Plus 8-10 weeks off in the summer, a week off at Thanksgiving, a week off for Spring Break, two weeks off for Christmas, 8-10 days per year of paid sick leave/personal leave, and several paid holidays.  Yes, teachers are overpaid...or at least ADEQUATELY paid...for the actual work they do.   
 
 Yes, I usually  did put in an hour or so at night at home, or at school before I left for the day...yes, there were some extracurricular requirements...it's that way for any job.  Yes, I had to pay for a few of my own supplies out of my own pocket.  Yes, I provided supplies for indigent students.  Comes with the territory. 

[Singleshotsam]

You don't factor in those off day's because they are considered part of the annual salary of the teacher.

 
 
Of course you do, if you consider it an "annual salary".     

How else would you refer to it?  For most teachers this is the only job they work.  If they make 40k per year then it's an annual salary.  They still live and pay bills 12 months out of the year.
 

at my wifes school, they are lined up at the sign-out computer at 3:30 sharp.

Dually noted, but how much time would you say she spends grading papers, or doing classroom work out of the classroom? 
 
Several of my friends mothers taught school when I was growing up.  It was not common for them to leave their classroom at 3:30 in the afternoon.  Most of the time, they were there for an hour or two extra everyday working on their classroom, helping struggling student, meetings ect...  Then when they would get home they would spend more time grading papers in the evening.  In a more well funded school than what were used to here in MO, if the budget allows for more staffing and teacher's aides then yes, I could see teacher leaving at such an early hour.  Unfortunatley, the way our schools are funded our teachers aren't generally allowed that luxury.
 

  Of course there is a vast difference when the job is tied to something the teacher is deeply involved and dedicated to.

I guess I was lucky as a student because 90% of the teachers I had were excellent.

[Casull]

 

  Quote from: Casull on Yesterday at 11:28:29 AM

Quote

You don't factor in those off day's because they are considered part of the annual salary of the teacher.

 
 
Of course you do, if you consider it an "annual salary".     

 

 

How else would you refer to it?  For most teachers this is the only job they work.  If they make 40k per year then it's an annual salary.  They still live and pay bills 12 months out of the year.

 

         I would call it a salary for 8 month's work (which it clearly is).  If some teachers chose to spend the months off doing nothing, that is their choice, but it surely doesn't lessen the amount they are paid for the actual time they work.

[XD40SC]

I am a retired teacher and earned EVERY BIT of my yearly pay and retirement. I have no need to justify why to anyone.

[Empty Quiver]

Does anyone ever stop to consider that in a free society a job will pay EXACTLY what it is worth ?


Argue about unions tenure anything you want but in the end the job pays Exactly what it is worth... To both the employee and the employer. At the point where the balance changes one party will leave the equation.


This balance is continually being tested and modified. It is unimportant until it affects you, at which point emotion kicks logic to the ditch in an effort to protect ones income and ego.


Trust me if you could get away with it you would pay a cardiologist $3.00 to do your bypass operation. If he had to, he would pay a mechanic $ 300.00 / hr to fix his Mercedes. But, those figures do not represent what the seller is willing to do the job for.


When the teachers will no longer do the job the pay will rise. If you are capable of earning a living running a major corporation and earn $1.5 million a year why would you teach for $48k?

[guzzijohn]

Quote from Empty Quiver:
"If you are capable of earning a living running a major corporation and earn $1.5 million a year why would you teach for $48k?"

This was recently sent to me by my old grade school principal and may give an answer to the above:



 
[/size]From A School Principal's speech at a  graduation.. [/font][/size][/size][/color][/font]
[/size]He said  "Doctor wants his child to become a doctor.........
[/size]    Engineer wants his child to become engineer......
[/size]    Businessman wants his ward to become CEO.....
[/size]    BUT a teacher also wants his child to become one of them..!!!!
[/size]Nobody wants to become a teacher BY CHOICE" ....Very sad but  that's the truth.....!!! [/font][/size][/size][/color][/font]
[/size]The dinner guests were sitting around the table discussing life.
[/size]One man, a CEO, decided to explain the problem with education. He argued,
[/size]"What's a kid going to learn from someone who decided his best option in life was to become a teacher?"[/size][/color][/font]
[/size]To stress his point he said to another guest;
[/size]"You're a teacher, Bonnie.  Be honest. What do you make?"[/size][/color][/font]
[/size]Teacher Bonnie, who had a reputation for honesty and frankness replied,
[/size]"You want to know  what I make?
[/size](She paused for a second, then began...)[/size][/color][/font]
[/size]"Well, I make kids work harder than they ever thought they could.[/font][/size][/size][/color][/font]
[/size]I make a C+ feel like the Congressional Medal of  Honor winner.[/font][/size][/size][/color][/font]
[/size]I make kids sit through 40 minutes of class time when their parents can't[/font][/size]
[/size]make them sit for 5 min. without an I Pod, Game Cube or movie rental.[/size][/color][/font]
[/size]You want to know what I make ?[/font][/size]
[/size](She paused again and looked at each and every person at the table)[/size][/color][/font]
[/size]I make kids wonder.[/font][/size][/size][/color][/font]
[/size]I make them question.[/font][/size][/size][/color][/font]
[/size]I make them apologize and mean it.[/font][/size][/size][/color][/font]
[/size]I make them have respect and take responsibility for their actions.[/font][/size][/size][/color][/font]
[/size]I teach them how to write and then I make them write.[/font][/size]
[/size]Keyboarding isn't everything.[/size][/color][/font]
[/size]I make them read, read, read.[/font][/size][/size][/color][/font]
[/size]I make them show all their work in math.[/font][/size]
[/size]They use their God given brain, not the man-made calculator.[/size][/color][/font]
[/size]I make my students from other countries learn everything they need[/font][/size]
[/size]to know about English while preserving their unique cultural identity.[/size][/color][/font]
[/size]I make my classroom a place where all my students feel safe.[/font][/size][/size][/color][/font]
[/size]Finally, I make them understand that if they use the gifts they[/font][/size]
[/size]were given, work hard, and follow their hearts, they can succeed in life[/size][/color][/font]
[/size]( Bonnie paused one last time and then continued.)[/size][/color][/font]
[/size]Then, when people try to judge me by what I make , with me knowing money isn't everything, I can hold my head up high and pay no attention because they are ignorant. You want to know what I make ?[/font][/size][/size][/color][/font]
[/size]I MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN ALL YOUR LIVES, EDUCATING KIDS AND PREPARING THEM TO BECOME CEO's, AND DOCTORS AND ENGINEERS.......... [/font][/size]
[/size]
[/size]What do you make Mr. CEO?[/font][/size][/size][/color][/font]
[/size]His jaw dropped; he went silent.

[billy_56081]

It appears the question on why American kids score so low in math and science has been avoided.

[reliquary]

Hey, XD40SC:  If it was anything I said, I didn't mean to imply that you or I or any other teacher didn't earn the pay or retirement.  I KNOW I earned mine.  I just don't/didn't consider myself underpaid. 
 
Now about the American kids not learning Math or Science (or History or Standard English, for that matter):  my experience was that the schools only wanted enough "hard stuff" taught that the kids would be able to pass whatever state-mandated tests were being used at the moment. 
 
Another problem was that the kids only spent about half their day in the core subjects, and the rest of their day in "fluff" like Band, Theatre Arts, Sports, Debate, etc.  Japanese and German schools aren't like that.
 
EQ: I ran the Army equivalent of a corporation, and was offered a job at a management consultancy firm, starting at $100K, after I retired, but I was tired of traveling and wanted to teach. 

[XD40SC]

Hey, XD40SC:  If it was anything I said, I didn't mean to imply that you or I or any other teacher didn't earn the pay or retirement.  I KNOW I earned mine.  I just don't/didn't consider myself underpaid. 
 
Now about the American kids not learning Math or Science (or History or Standard English, for that matter):  my experience was that the schools only wanted enough "hard stuff" taught that the kids would be able to pass whatever state-mandated tests were being used at the moment. 
 
Another problem was that the kids only spent about half their day in the core subjects, and the rest of their day in "fluff" like Band, Theatre Arts, Sports, Debate, etc.  Japanese and German schools aren't like that.
 
EQ: I ran the Army equivalent of a corporation, and was offered a job at a management consultancy firm, starting at $100K, after I retired, but I was tired of traveling and wanted to teach.

Nothing you said. Thanks for your concern.

[XD40SC]

 1.--    Shades of Green Archives | Email alerts
Nov. 6, 2003, 8:19 p.m. EST
 Ten most overpaid jobs in the U.S.  Commentary: If only such largesse flowed to all of us              0 Comments   Share EmailPrint   By Chris Pummer, MarketWatch.com
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Almost no one in America would admit to being overpaid, but many of us take home bloated paychecks far beyond what we deserve.
"Fair compensation" is a relative term, yet HR consultants and executive headhunters agree some jobs command excessive pay that can't be explained by labor supply-and-demand imbalances.
And while it's easy to argue chief executives, lawyers and movie stars are overpaid, reality is not that cut and dried.
Corporate attorneys earn $500-plus an hour and plaintiffs lawyers pocket a third of big personal-injury settlements, but local prosecutors and public defenders get paid little in comparison. Specialty surgeons may earn $1 million or more, while some family-practice doctors are hard-pressed to pay off medical-school loans.
2.
Did you know that about 77,000 federal employees make more than the governors of their respective states? Apparently, around 4,300 of these federal employees are lawyers.
Overpaid lawyers. How many attorneys have heard jokes and other snide comments at the expense of their salaries?
Well, now you can add another snide comment to the list - attorneys can make more than the governor of a state.Though, to be honest, attorney salaries have always been high. Is it surprising that some federal attorneys might be making some serious cash? Not really.
After all, private sector salaries for attorneys start off at $160,000 for those BigLaw kids. And, with such a large monetary incentive for graduates from top law schools or graduates with top grades, it makes sense that the feds had to up the ante - and the salary - for at least the more experienced attorneys.

[Empty Quiver]

Hey, XD40SC:  If it was anything I said, I didn't mean to imply that you or I or any other teacher didn't earn the pay or retirement.  I KNOW I earned mine.  I just don't/didn't consider myself underpaid. 
 
Now about the American kids not learning Math or Science (or History or Standard English, for that matter):  my experience was that the schools only wanted enough "hard stuff" taught that the kids would be able to pass whatever state-mandated tests were being used at the moment. 
 
Another problem was that the kids only spent about half their day in the core subjects, and the rest of their day in "fluff" like Band, Theatre Arts, Sports, Debate, etc.  Japanese and German schools aren't like that.
 
EQ: I ran the Army equivalent of a corporation, and was offered a job at a management consultancy firm, starting at $100K, after I retired, but I was tired of traveling and wanted to teach.

$100k is not chump change but is certainly not $1,5 mil.


You have also answered as to why teaching does not pay any more than it does. People will happily do it for much less.


Look at all the good things. Hang around with a bunch of kids. You are a role model to many of them, not something that happens at most work places. The hours ain't bad, you get off for all the holidays. You get the extra large lunch (that was a joke). No calluses, no rotator cuff injuries, no carpel tunnel, no burns, low exposure to known carcinogens(to the state of California). Your vacation coincides with your kids, which is pretty danged nice. Have I mentioned the good looking new french teacher? She is single I hear.  


I am in no way trying to say teachers are low value workers. My daughter is in school right now with plans to teach, my grandmother and mother in law were teachers, my grandfather was a principal. I am not ignorant to teaching as a profession. It is a pleasant way to make a living and as such will never pay as well as it could.

[XD40SC]

Hey, XD40SC:  If it was anything I said, I didn't mean to imply that you or I or any other teacher didn't earn the pay or retirement.  I KNOW I earned mine.  I just don't/didn't consider myself underpaid. 
 
Now about the American kids not learning Math or Science (or History or Standard English, for that matter):  my experience was that the schools only wanted enough "hard stuff" taught that the kids would be able to pass whatever state-mandated tests were being used at the moment. 
 
Another problem was that the kids only spent about half their day in the core subjects, and the rest of their day in "fluff" like Band, Theatre Arts, Sports, Debate, etc.  Japanese and German schools aren't like that.
 
EQ: I ran the Army equivalent of a corporation, and was offered a job at a management consultancy firm, starting at $100K, after I retired, but I was tired of traveling and wanted to teach.

$100k is not chump change but is certainly not $1,5 mil.


You have also answered as to why teaching does not pay any more than it does. People will happily do it for much less.


Look at all the good things. Hang around with a bunch of kids. You are a role model to many of them, not something that happens at most work places. The hours ain't bad, you get off for all the holidays. You get the extra large lunch (that was a joke). No calluses, no rotator cuff injuries, no carpel tunnel, no burns, low exposure to known carcinogens(to the state of California). Your vacation coincides with your kids, which is pretty danged nice. Have I mentioned the good looking new french teacher? She is single I hear.  


I am in no way trying to say teachers are low value workers. My daughter is in school right now with plans to teach, my grandmother and mother in law were teachers, my grandfather was a principal. I am not ignorant to teaching as a profession. It is a pleasant way to make a living and as such will never pay as well as it could.

You forgot the odds of a teacher being abused or killed is higher than most non law enforcement jobs.

[Casull]

You forgot the odds of a teacher being abused or killed is higher than most non law enforcement jobs.

 
 
That a guess, or do you have something to back it up?  Haven't seen it on the discovery channel yet with the crab fisherman, loggers or truckers.