Teachers overpaid

[DDZ]

XD, Were you a member of a teachers union, like the NEA or the AFT, which are a couple of the big ones? It is the school administrators job to make sure teachers are doing the job they are required to do, but in many cases they are limited to what they can do with poor performing teachers, because of unions. They protect jobs, and it happens in most all unions. I belong to a union and I see it happening there. There are a number of people I work with that would be fired if it were not for union protection. The supervisor once tried to get a couple of employees to increase the amount of work they do. The employees complained, and the supervisor got set to anger managment clases. Its what unions do.
I'm not bashing teachers in general. There are many that do a good job and deserve more pay. In turn there are many that need to be weeded out, and that is just not possible with unions in place.
If the majority are good teachers, why not ban together and get rid of the union. It would benifit them, the school, the students, and the tax payers. Certain teachers that do a great job, and go above and beyond what is required of them, why do they need union brass barganing for them? When the union brass usually make more than the teachers, and some much more. The teachers production, and quality of work they do, would be their barganing tool.       

[quasne.inc]

I totally agree.  I think all unions and tenure should be done away with in all professions and that everyone should be judged on their performance.

[XD40SC]

XD, Were you a member of a teachers union, like the NEA or the AFT, which are a couple of the big ones? It is the school administrators job to make sure teachers are doing the job they are required to do, but in many cases they are limited to what they can do with poor performing teachers, because of unions. They protect jobs, and it happens in most all unions. I belong to a union and I see it happening there. There are a number of people I work with that would be fired if it were not for union protection. The supervisor once tried to get a couple of employees to increase the amount of work they do. The employees complained, and the supervisor got set to anger managment clases. Its what unions do.
I'm not bashing teachers in general. There are many that do a good job and deserve more pay. In turn there are many that need to be weeded out, and that is just not possible with unions in place.
If the majority are good teachers, why not ban together and get rid of the union. It would benifit them, the school, the students, and the tax payers. Certain teachers that do a great job, and go above and beyond what is required of them, why do they need union brass barganing for them? When the union brass usually make more than the teachers, and some much more. The teachers production, and quality of work they do, would be their barganing tool.     

I belonged to NEA. A waste of money. I began teaching in the early days of teacher unions. Back than teachers were paid very little. We qualified for food stamps and Wic programs. I remember calling in sick because I didn't have enough money for gas. Our credit cars were maxed out because of medicine for us and our kids and for food. That is one reason teacher unions came about. Back than you could always tell which was the teachers parking lot. It was full of junkers. My olds was held together with pop rivits. The body was so rusted. We didn't have 3 months off in the summer. We worked to pay off our debts, especially credit cards that were run up for the reasons listed above. I was asked to pay my local high school school board $1000 if I wanted a job. If someone on the school board had a relative that wanted to teach, a position was created by firing the teacher in that position. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE complained about teachers making so little money back than. That's why teacher unions were started. I know because I was there and lived it.

[ironglow]

XD40;
      Perhaps you are suffering because of the overpaid, unionized, cannot-be-fired fellow teachers..
 
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  I do find it interesting however... that nobody thus far has found the irony of overpaid, unionized, cannot-be-fired people getting up to $80,000 for 8 months work at 37 hours per week...... vs.. Pvt Stavinsky; facing death nearly every day for $1.95 per hour !  Pvt Stavinsky is not alone...

[30-30man]

Well if anybody thinks a teacher's job ends at 3:00-3:30pm everyday, they have no idea what a teacher really does.  The hours are more than you think.  I guess most parents think all their children's graded papers get attention during the 30-40 minutes of planning period each day that most teachers get.  That is between the tutoring, parent conferences, phone calls, lesson plans, running off copies, sending assignments to the alternative school, in school suspension, and preparing for the next class.  It just doen't all happen from 8-3:30 for teachers doing their jobs.  The hours are much closer to 40+ and the pay is much lower per hour than you would guess.  As for summers, well I wonder how many of you have to take $800-$1000 out of your own pocket every year just to keep working?  For most teachers, the summers are spent in graduate school or attending workshops that are required by their area.  In SC, we have to have six graduate credits every five years just to keep your job.  The local districts are no longer providing these classes because of the recent downturn in the economy.
 
Now any person who serves in any of the armed services has my respect.  They do a thankless job sometimes as teachers do.  They have some perks too that I don't hear many complaining about: paid uniforms, discount stores on base, free medical/dental/vision plan, free meals, discount housing on base, lakes and hunting land only open to members, free college education, hazzard pay, career services, and even a nice retirement.  Teachers don't have any of those.
 
If any of you want the perks of a teacher, there is a federal program called "Project Create".  They will pay for you to go back to school to be a teacher as long as you teach in a critical area for two years.  Somehow, I don't see many of you jumping on that one.

[XD40SC]

Well if anybody thinks a teacher's job ends at 3:00-3:30pm everyday, they have no idea what a teacher really does.  The hours are more than you think.  I guess most parents think all their children's graded papers get attention during the 30-40 minutes of planning period each day that most teachers get.  That is between the tutoring, parent conferences, phone calls, lesson plans, running off copies, sending assignments to the alternative school, in school suspension, and preparing for the next class.  It just doen't all happen from 8-3:30 for teachers doing their jobs.  The hours are much closer to 40  and the pay is much lower per hour than you would guess.  As for summers, well I wonder how many of you have to take $800-$1000 out of your own pocket every year just to keep working?  For most teachers, the summers are spent in graduate school or attending workshops that are required by their area.  In SC, we have to have six graduate credits every five years just to keep your job.  The local districts are no longer providing these classes because of the recent downturn in the economy.
 
Now any person who serves in any of the armed services has my respect.  They do a thankless job sometimes as teachers do.  They have some perks too that I don't hear many complaining about: paid uniforms, discount stores on base, free medical/dental/vision plan, free meals, discount housing on base, lakes and hunting land only open to members, free college education, hazzard pay, career services, and even a nice retirement.  Teachers don't have any of those.
 
If any of you want the perks of a teacher, there is a federal program called "Project Create".  They will pay for you to go back to school to be a teacher as long as you teach in a critical area for two years.  Somehow, I don't see many of you jumping on that one.

your preaching to the choir. This has been covered many, many time and no ones opinion changes. You know what I mean. You preview the lesson, teach the lesson using several methods of learning styles, review the lesson ;and some still don't get it or don't want to get it.

[mcwoodduck]

After all if you hired a plumber to fix a drain and they don't you really do not want ot pay them.  If you take your car to a mechanic you don't want it to start every third day, or stop every other time you apply the brakes.  You would not spen more on a handgun that doesn't work than one that does.
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BUT- the drain, the car, the handgun, don't have a free will and refuse to be fixed no matter how hard you try. There is a huge difference between dealing with inanimate objects and living organisms.

excuses, excuses.  A failed attempt, a job poorly done is a job pooly done.  I see people with out skills or knowledge trying to work on equipment they have no idea how it works and charge the owners large sums of money when only a few minutes and a small part were needed tyo repair the unit.
What you allow the kids to get away with is up to the teacher.  When I was in military school we had teachers handle kids quickly and efficiently.  I had a teacher that had the stupid corner for anyone that did not do their home work or failed a test.  You stood in the corner/ box when everyone else was out playing, or doing something fun.  Guess what home work most of us did when we got home?  Guess what tests and quizes we stuidied for?  If you acted up you went to the principal.  In order to get back in class you had to appoligies to the whole class and the teacher for disrupting the class.

[XD40SC]

After all if you hired a plumber to fix a drain and they don't you really do not want ot pay them.  If you take your car to a mechanic you don't want it to start every third day, or stop every other time you apply the brakes.  You would not spen more on a handgun that doesn't work than one that does.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BUT- the drain, the car, the handgun, don't have a free will and refuse to be fixed no matter how hard you try. There is a huge difference between dealing with inanimate objects and living organisms.

excuses, excuses.  A failed attempt, a job poorly done is a job pooly done.  I see people with out skills or knowledge trying to work on equipment they have no idea how it works and charge the owners large sums of money when only a few minutes and a small part were needed tyo repair the unit.{ }
What you allow the kids to get away with is up to the teacher.  When I was in military school we had teachers handle kids quickly and efficiently.  I had a teacher that had the stupid corner for anyone that did not do their home work or failed a test. You stood in the corner/ box when everyone else was out playing, or doing something fun.  Guess what home work most of us did when we got home?  Guess what tests and quizes we stuidied for?  If you acted up you went to the principal.  In order to get back in class you had to appoligies to the whole class and the teacher for disrupting the class.

Do you really think that's how most schools operate? INCONCEIVABLE. If so you are out of touch with reality.

[mcwoodduck]

After all if you hired a plumber to fix a drain and they don't you really do not want ot pay them.  If you take your car to a mechanic you don't want it to start every third day, or stop every other time you apply the brakes.  You would not spen more on a handgun that doesn't work than one that does.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BUT- the drain, the car, the handgun, don't have a free will and refuse to be fixed no matter how hard you try. There is a huge difference between dealing with inanimate objects and living organisms.

excuses, excuses.  A failed attempt, a job poorly done is a job pooly done.  I see people with out skills or knowledge trying to work on equipment they have no idea how it works and charge the owners large sums of money when only a few minutes and a small part were needed tyo repair the unit.{ }
What you allow the kids to get away with is up to the teacher.  When I was in military school we had teachers handle kids quickly and efficiently.  I had a teacher that had the stupid corner for anyone that did not do their home work or failed a test. You stood in the corner/ box when everyone else was out playing, or doing something fun.  Guess what home work most of us did when we got home?  Guess what tests and quizes we stuidied for?  If you acted up you went to the principal.  In order to get back in class you had to appoligies to the whole class and the teacher for disrupting the class.

Do you really think that's how most schools operate? INCONCEIVABLE. If so you are out of touch with reality.

The teacher did not call it the stupid corner the kids nick named it that.
But I see you are onbe of those.  The everyone is a winner and no one is a looser, everyone gets a ribbon.  That the experience of the event is more inportant then winning.  Maybe that is why we have a failing school system.  With the no one looses mentality you can see why kids give up, you can see how we get the OWS morons that think the world owes them the same living as those that have busted their butts to make it.  Of course the teachers are not paid by how well they teach but how long they have been a teacher. 
Why are a kindergarden teacher and a college proffessor at a state school not paid exactly the same?  Both are state employes teaching and using tax payer dollars to support the school?  Why are Gym teachers and Science and Math teachers all paid the same?  Clearly the Science and math teachers had harder subject to master and all the gym teacher had to master was kick or dodge ball.  But with this pay scale I can see how and why you are ok with not winning.  Actually the system you are in rewards doing less and why wouldn't the kids resist learning when the whole system is skewed to treat everyone equally no matter how hard they work.
Again we have thrown more and more money at the education system and we are getting worse results.  Clearly we need to take money away fromn the system and get a better education system.  Sorry if this hurts your feelings or if it insults you.  You may be a great teacher that a bad apple now and then.  But other then them you have a 99% education rate and all of your kids leaving your classes are ready for the next grade, level of education, or the real world.  If not maybe you should be asking your self why not?  Did I really earn my pay for the day?  If I were paying me to teach my kid in this class would I be happy paying that bill?

[XD40SC]

After all if you hired a plumber to fix a drain and they don't you really do not want ot pay them.  If you take your car to a mechanic you don't want it to start every third day, or stop every other time you apply the brakes.  You would not spen more on a handgun that doesn't work than one that does.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BUT- the drain, the car, the handgun, don't have a free will and refuse to be fixed no matter how hard you try. There is a huge difference between dealing with inanimate objects and living organisms.

excuses, excuses.  A failed attempt, a job poorly done is a job pooly done.  I see people with out skills or knowledge trying to work on equipment they have no idea how it works and charge the owners large sums of money when only a few minutes and a small part were needed tyo repair the unit.{ }
What you allow the kids to get away with is up to the teacher.  When I was in military school we had teachers handle kids quickly and efficiently.  I had a teacher that had the stupid corner for anyone that did not do their home work or failed a test. You stood in the corner/ box when everyone else was out playing, or doing something fun.  Guess what home work most of us did when we got home?  Guess what tests and quizes we stuidied for?  If you acted up you went to the principal.  In order to get back in class you had to appoligies to the whole class and the teacher for disrupting the class.

Do you really think that's how most schools operate? INCONCEIVABLE. If so you are out of touch with reality.

The teacher did not call it the stupid corner the kids nick named it that.
But I see you are onbe of those.  The everyone is a winner and no one is a looser, everyone gets a ribbon.  That the experience of the event is more inportant then winning.  Maybe that is why we have a failing school system.  With the no one looses mentality you can see why kids give up, you can see how we get the OWS morons that think the world owes them the same living as those that have busted their butts to make it.  Of course the teachers are not paid by how well they teach but how long they have been a teacher. 
Why are a kindergarden teacher and a college proffessor at a state school not paid exactly the same?  Both are state employes teaching and using tax payer dollars to support the school?  Why are Gym teachers and Science and Math teachers all paid the same?  Clearly the Science and math teachers had harder subject to master and all the gym teacher had to master was kick or dodge ball.  But with this pay scale I can see how and why you are ok with not winning.  Actually the system you are in rewards doing less and why wouldn't the kids resist learning when the whole system is skewed to treat everyone equally no matter how hard they work.
Again we have thrown more and more money at the education system and we are getting worse results. Clearly we need to take money away fromn the system and get a better education system. Sorry if this hurts your feelings or if it insults you.  You may be a great teacher that a bad apple now and then.  But other then them you have a 99% education rate and all of your kids leaving your classes are ready for the next grade, level of education, or the real world.  If not maybe you should be asking your self why not?  Did I really earn my pay for the day?  If I were paying me to teach my kid in this class would I be happy paying that bill?

I can't argue with logic like that.

[Dixiejack]

I have been reading this "discussion" off and on and I have decided to put in my .02 cents worth. I grew up working on the family farm and worked in my daddy's saw mill.  I got paid .05 for every fence post I skinned to take to the creosote plant.  When I graduated from high school, I went into service and when I got home I went to work for a roofer.  I decided college was the only way to advance in life and I had a teacher who talked me into going into education. I admit that it was a lot easier to teach than to skin fence posts. LOL


I teach at a 4 yr. community college.  I don't belong to a union and I am tenured. Being tenured does not secure your job. Anyone who thinks that is a fool.  I teach five to seven classes per semester. Each class is a different course, so I have to prepare for each class.  It would be great to teach the same course 5 to 7 times, meaning a lot less work.  It would be nice to teach 37 hours a week and go home. Some of my classes have 6 contact hours per week and some are 3 contact hours per week.  Then I spend about that time much grading papers, preparing for classes, and counseling students.  I also put in 10 mandatory office hours. I am on 3 to 5 committees each year.  I have a 12 month contract.  I get 3 weeks vacation and the normal legal holidays. I have a year's worth of sick leave built up that I lose when I retire, unless I take it first. Last year I had to take a days furlough each week to keep the school from laying off faculty. I have to go out in the community on my own time and recruit the best students. I have to participate in fund raisers for scholarships on my own time. I have to put up with students who cannot read and write and have graduated from high school.  In the city I teach, 2 years ago, out of 5 high school valedictorians, 3 had to take remedial reading and writing courses before they could be admitted to college.  It was my choice to teach as a vocation.  I feel that if I can make a difference in one student. To keep one student from becoming a criminal.  To show one student that he or she can make a contribution to society, then my $60,000.00 a year is worth what I do for a living. Yes, for me and thousands like me, we are underpaid. 

[mcwoodduck]

I have been reading this "discussion" off and on and I have decided to put in my .02 cents worth. I grew up working on the family farm and worked in my daddy's saw mill.  I got paid .05 for every fence post I skinned to take to the creosote plant.  When I graduated from high school, I went into service and when I got home I went to work for a roofer.  I decided college was the only way to advance in life and I had a teacher who talked me into going into education. I admit that it was a lot easier to teach than to skin fence posts. LOL


I teach at a 4 yr. community college.  I don't belong to a union and I am tenured. Being tenured does not secure your job. Anyone who thinks that is a fool.  I teach five to seven classes per semester. Each class is a different course, so I have to prepare for each class.  It would be great to teach the same course 5 to 7 times, meaning a lot less work.  It would be nice to teach 37 hours a week and go home. Some of my classes have 6 contact hours per week and some are 3 contact hours per week.  Then I spend about that time much grading papers, preparing for classes, and counseling students.  I also put in 10 mandatory office hours. I am on 3 to 5 committees each year.  I have a 12 month contract.  I get 3 weeks vacation and the normal legal holidays. I have a year's worth of sick leave built up that I lose when I retire, unless I take it first. Last year I had to take a days furlough each week to keep the school from laying off faculty. I have to go out in the community on my own time and recruit the best students. I have to participate in fund raisers for scholarships on my own time. I have to put up with students who cannot read and write and have graduated from high school.  In the city I teach, 2 years ago, out of 5 high school valedictorians, 3 had to take remedial reading and writing courses before they could be admitted to college.  It was my choice to teach as a vocation.  I feel that if I can make a difference in one student. To keep one student from becoming a criminal.  To show one student that he or she can make a contribution to society, then my $60,000.00 a year is worth what I do for a living. Yes, for me and thousands like me, we are underpaid.

How can you say in the same sentence remedial courses for a valedictorian to get into college and not condem the teachers and the schools that did not teach those kids to read, write, form an argument, understand our government and do semi advanced math?  I can see how you would earn your 60 a year in making up for what the other teacher FAILED to do.  Having to teach high school or lower classes before being able to teach your subjects makes your job extremely harder.  I applaude your work ethic, your goal to make these students productive members of society.  But in doing so you have bolstered my argument.  How can you pay a teacher so much and produce the best of the class that need remedial courses?  Wouldn't sticking the kids in front of the TV and showing school house rock and sesame street be more effective as a teaching tool let alone cost effective?

[Dixiejack]

mcwoodduck, I can tell you it is very disappointing, but middle and high school teachers should not have to take all the blame.  Bush's "No Child Left Behind" is the worst thing to ever happen to American education.  Teachers are pushed so hard by the administrations from the feds to the states to the local school boards to  the school administrators for them (teachers) to devote practically all their time prompting their students to make high grades on performance tests. These practice tests start at the beginning of the school year and continues until the official tests are administered.  High grades means more bucks for the school systems.  It also means that teachers will not be laid off.  If you keep up with national education news, you will find cases of school adms. "fixing" grades.  It happened in the city I teach in, but was officially covered up. So, that is why I don't put all the blame on public school teachers.  It is a sad commentary that our public school teachers have to walk such a tight rope.  I am certainly not happy at the quality of students that are being turned out because teachers don't have the time to teach the way they need to.  76% of the public school student population in the city where I teach college are black.  Over half of them know nothing or little about the civil rights movement.  Why?  Because their parents have little knowledge of it and no longer care. Remember the welfare handouts that encouraged mostly black women to have more babies. More babies more money.  I am getting off track, so I will say don't blame every teacher for our quality of education.  Blame those idiots in Washington. By the way, when I started teaching years ago I heard this same argument then--Teachers are overpaid and only work 6 months a year.  I plan to retire when I find one student who actually gives a damn or when I reach 70. (Which is two more years).  By the way, I will make another post about the equality of teachers, but I have 63 papers to grade by Wednesday and we are having Spring semester pre-registration this week. My choice.   

[mcwoodduck]

Thanks,
Still bolstering my argument to take more money out of the school sytems.
Maybe we need to loose more of the administration level and free money up for teachers but the addition of money to the school system is only bringing down the level nad creating theft and cheating.
The administrators should be locked up for forgery for fixing the test scores.  Any one associated with it should be fired and fined 1.5 times their salery for the amount of time it went on.

[Forestclimber]

blah, blah,blah.  I think this horse is dead.

[ironglow]

blah, blah,blah.  I think this horse is dead.

  Just worn out...but just wait and see; it will have a colt..

[mcwoodduck]

blah, blah,blah.  I think this horse is dead.

Then how do we motivate the students?  How do we motivate the bad teachers?  if you are willing to drop the subject are you giving up on our education system, our kids?
Clearly there is a divied in this post.  Those that teach want more money.  And I understand it.  There is somethng wrong with a profession that starts you out 120K in debt with student loans and pays little to start out.
I am looking at the product that this system is turning out.  Mind numbed robots that can not think for them selves, are angry, and are unemployable.
Would you hire the valedictorian in the earlier post and pay them 18 to 20K a year, or more in your business?

[BUGEYE]

when my daughter was old enough for kindergarten, my wife went back to work in a school so she could keep our daughter close.  the school was considered inner-city with a bad reputation.
my daughter received a good education there because we made her study.  the teachers were surprised at the support they received from us.
I can see how some teachers get dis-heartened when they get no support from the parents or the school board.  our system lost its acreditation a few years ago because of fighting on the school board and it hasn't gotten any better.   kids can no longer be punished. after two short suspensions for bad behavior they are thrown back in the classroom for the teacher to deal with.
we need to eliminate the requirement that kids even attend school.  kids that really want to learn and parents that encourage their kids to excell should be the only ones involved in school.
we're going to have to incarcerate the rest of them anyway, so why let'em disrupt school.

[Empty Quiver]

Dead on Bugeye.


You are responsible for your child's education. It is the parents responsibility to see that the kid is getting the work done. From what I'm reading here teachers by and large want the kids to succeed, they are providing the tools. Parents need to see that they are doing the work though. You cannot expect all teachers to give a rat's ass about YOUR kid.


I'm not willing to accept that todays teachers are fundamentally worse than those 50 years ago (who made less money?). Parenting is fundamentally worse.


Mom AND dad chasing money for things our parents would not have dreamed of owning is the culprit. Who needs a 3100sq ft home? Three cars in a garage, six TV's, 4 1/2 baths, 19' boat with a 175 horse motor, a Harley, and 3 snowmobiles. Don't forget the kid in daycare, two in ballet classes. We can't forget the  one in hockey, soccer and wrestling, who lives with his mother, since there was no time for family  a divorce was inevitable.


If public school is not getting it done, forego the toys and lavish lifestyle. Use the extra money for a private school or tutors. Better yet, mom stays home and takes care of the issues herself. Still better dad stays home.  

[mcwoodduck]

Dead on Bugeye.


Mom AND dad chasing money for things our parents would not have dreamed of owning is the culprit. Who needs a 3100sq ft home? Three cars in a garage, six TV's, 4 1/2 baths, 19' boat with a 175 horse motor, a Harley, and 3 snowmobiles. Don't forget the kid in daycare, two in ballet classes. We can't forget the  one in hockey, soccer and wrestling, who lives with his mother, since there was no time for family  a divorce was inevitable.

Does the tax rate have anything to do with it?
Years ago My father and Grandfather got on me for not owning a house and what was I doiong with all my money.
We took thinks case by case.  In 1968 My father was making about 10K
and bought a house for 30K.  So 3 X his income.
he purchased a new Buick Station wagon that had all the bells and whistles  about 2500 or 1/4 of his salary.  We then looked at his totla tax rates and he said between Fed, state, and property taxes he was paying about 2500 a year in taxes, again 1/4 of his salary.
We moved 30 years into the future and we looked what I was making.
The same house was 10 X what I was making, A 2 WD suburban was more than I was making, and my taxes were about 48%.  I am more than willing to go with a smaller house, and drive an older car but why do I need to pay twice as much in taxes and in paying so much.
If we were to go back to low tax rates could we afford to have one parent at home?

[Dixiejack]

mcwoodduck, empty quiver, bugeye you guys summed it up pretty well.  You usually find that the kids that fail, drop out, get into trouble are the ones who have parents that don't care. Don't take me wrong, there are plenty of parents who do care and take the time with their kids.


Since we have beat the dead teacher and somewhat exonerated them, let's see who else is overpaid and underworked--Preachers.  LOL

[darkgael]

I am always amazed at the amount of misinformation that some folks carry around regarding teachers, what they do, how much they make, what is expected of them.
Y'know...there are a couple of truisms that play out very nicely and sadly in this thread. One is that because we all spent time in school,  we think that we know what goes on. Think about it....years of being in schools, in classrooms.....we are all experts, aren't we? How many of us have spent the same amount of time exposed to any other profession, any other workplace, aside from our own. Probably none. Experts.
I don't think so. Unless you have stood in front of a class of 25-40 kids, at least some of whom don't want to be there,  and done that five or six times a day for years...you don't know what really goes on even if you think that you do.
The other truism is that teachers work for amateurs. Boards of Education are rarely composed of people who have any more experience with the nitty-gritty of day to day work in  the schools than the average citizen - not much.
The standard arguments - about the length of the year, the length of the day, the nominal hours worked, tenure and its effects, testing, merit pay - they are all here and every one of them shows that there is little understanding of the truth, the reality of each of those.
Then there is the "Teachers don't educate my children". Oh, really. The thrust there is that the entire responsibility for a child's education takes place in the seven or eight hours that the child is in school.
Last check on time showed that a child is at home way more than at school.
Look around your house.....how many books and magazines and newspapers can you see right now? How many books does your child see when he/she walks in the door at any given time? How often do they see you reading? All of that is  part of their education as much as or more than what happens in the school. How often do you sit with your children and play a math game, talk about numbers and the sciences that use them. How much teaching do you do to reinforce what they learn in school. Or.....do you leave it all up to Mr. McDonough in room 218.
Merit pay? Who is going to make the judgement? On what basis? By what standard? A test? Who is going to make up the test? What are they going to test? Who says that that material is valuable? Who says that every child is ready to  take a test at the same time as his or her peers? Who says that a given child takes a particular test as well as another?
Tests. The most enduring and valuable aspects of a proper education are, in fact, not testable. You can test whether a child can read but you cannot test when a teacher has instilled in a child a lifelong appreciation of what books have to offer. You can test whether a child can write a business letter and be understood; you cannot test when a child has learned about the incredible power of the written word. You can test arithmetic and Algebra; you cannot test when a child has been caught by the ineffable magic of numbers.

Too many of you fellows have a chip on your shoulder and little real knowledge to back up your anger.
Pete

[billy_56081]

Everybody thinks they are under paid, get over it and get to work and shut up! Be happy you don't live in some third world cesspool. Even our poor people are fat.

[Casull]

darkgael, anyone that works at something can make those same arguments, or similar ones, about his/her job/profession.  As Billy and others have pointed out, NOBODY thinks they are paid too much.  As to testing, you question the validity of the tests and ask who prepares them.  I suppose that is because you think they might be too subjective.  But, you then throw out these subjective questions about instilling a love of reading and other things.  The truth of the matter is that testing is probably the most objective means of determining if children are indeed learning and progressing at the rate they should.  It may not be perfect, but I've yet to see a better yardstick.  I will say this, I've had some good teachers and I've had some that were not so good.  But, I've never really been "instilled" with anything but knowledge by any of them.  The desire to learn has just always been there.

[Dixiejack]

Years ago I heard a speech at an education conference.  A speaker talking about teaching methods quoted someone. "Give a student a test and, at best he will remember it for a week.  Give a student an experience and he will remember it forever."

[XD40SC]

darkgael, anyone that works at something can make those same arguments, or similar ones, about his/her job/profession.  As Billy and others have pointed out, NOBODY thinks they are paid too much.  As to testing, you question the validity of the tests and ask who prepares them.  I suppose that is because you think they might be too subjective.  But, you then throw out these subjective questions about instilling a love of reading and other things.  The truth of the matter is that testing is probably the most objective means of determining if children are indeed learning and progressing at the rate they should.  It may not be perfect, but I've yet to see a better yardstick.  I will say this, I've had some good teachers and I've had some that were not so good.  But, I've never really been "instilled" with anything but knowledge by any of them.  The desire to learn has just always been there.

  Maybe that's exactly the reason why you have never been instilled.
You prove the point; you are successful because " the desire to learn has always been there." How successful would you be if you had no desire to learn?
 

[XD40SC]

Everybody thinks they are under paid, get over it and get to work and shut up! Be happy you don't live in some third world cesspool. Even our poor people are fat.
[/quot
 

Can't argue with that kind of logic.

[ironglow]

  The major problem is the monopoly which is in place.  Centuries ago, each family paid for their own children's education, but here in America we understood the basic unfairness of that idea.  Thus, we decided to make education a joint venture, something like fire insurance.  The primary difference being that some pay a higher premium, others less and some no premium at all.  Originally, education was handled at a local level, later at aa state level and now the federal govt stirs the pot.     
             If we really want to give our children a better education, we should be using a "voucher" system (IMO).  Competition improves every product, monopoly is a deleterious force !
    If an auto repair shop, heating & air conditioning shop, landscape contractor, or new Doctor in town opened for business, the quality of their work would sort the 'wheat from the chaff', only the better ones would last...because people can CHOOSE whom they will patronize.
  Schools should operate the same way...compete; that will refine the product and the system.
 
  I assume those here who are teachers or have teachers close to them, figure they are well qualified.  With all out competition, as with ANY business..."the cream will rise to the top"..providing the cream is not held down by a union.
 
   If I were a teacher today, I would be campaigning for a voucher system to be put into effect...
 
  ....Guess I would just have to risk a visit by some fat guys and a couple broken kneecaps..    

[XD40SC]

  The major problem is the monopoly which is in place.  Centuries ago, each family paid for their own children's education, but here in America we understood the basic unfairness of that idea.  Thus, we decided to make education a joint venture, something like fire insurance.  The primary difference being that some pay a higher premium, others less and some no premium at all.  Originally, education was handled at a local level, later at aa state level and now the federal govt stirs the pot.     
             If we really want to give our children a better education, we should be using a "voucher" system (IMO).  Competition improves every product, monopoly is a deleterious force !
    If an auto repair shop, heating & air conditioning shop, landscape contractor, or new Doctor in town opened for business, the quality of their work would sort the 'wheat from the chaff', only the better ones would last...because people can CHOOSE whom they will patronize.
  Schools should operate the same way...compete; that will refine the product and the system.
 
  I assume those here who are teachers or have teachers close to them, figure they are well qualified.  With all out competition, as with ANY business..."the cream will rise to the top"..providing the cream is not held down by a union.
 
   If I were a teacher today, I would be campaigning for a voucher system to be put into effect...
 
  ....Guess I would just have to risk a visit by some fat guys and a couple broken kneecaps..    

Here is the problem I see with that- students will leave the bad schools for better ones. What does the better school district do with the huge influx of new students?

[darkgael]

darkgael, anyone that works at something can make those same arguments, or similar ones, about his/her job/profession.  As Billy and others have pointed out, NOBODY thinks they are paid too much.  As to testing, you question the validity of the tests and ask who prepares them.  I suppose that is because you think they might be too subjective.  But, you then throw out these subjective questions about instilling a love of reading and other things.  The truth of the matter is that testing is probably the most objective means of determining if children are indeed learning and progressing at the rate they should.  It may not be perfect, but I've yet to see a better yardstick.  I will say this, I've had some good teachers and I've had some that were not so good.  But, I've never really been "instilled" with anything but knowledge by any of them.  The desire to learn has just always been there.

Casull: That is a civilized response. Thank you.
I do disagree about the anyone can make similar arguments. I cannot think of any other profession where the general public is as intimately involved in the workplace for years and years as we all are when in school.

A minor point about "subjective questions about instilling, etc."
What I wrote was "

The most enduring and valuable aspects of a proper education are, in fact, not testable. You can test whether a child can read but you cannot test when a teacher has instilled in a child a lifelong appreciation of what books have to offer. You can test whether a child can write a business letter and be understood; you cannot test when a child has learned about the incredible power of the written word. You can test arithmetic and Algebra; you cannot test when a child has been caught by the ineffable magic of numbers.

There are no questions there. The point of that set of statements was in reference to using tests as a basis for merit pay. The idea being that the most valuable aspects of a education are not measurable and are thus not considered by testing programs. That the tests themselves have other problems is another issue.

Other ideas: About other nation's students scoring better on standardized tests.....maybe. You may find that the entire educational set up in those countries is geared toward rote learning. You may also find that not every child in those systems is accounted for by those test results - often, if a child is not as successful as standards say they should be, they are steered into a different path and do not take the tests in question. In addition, their school days, school weeks (Saturday classes), and school years may be longer.
It is worth noticing how very many of those "better scoring" students come to this country for their college education.
I cannot read your mind but those last two sentences in your post - about never having been instilled/the desire to learn just always being there - make me wonder. In a sense, if that is true, you are fortunate. In another sense, I have trouble with the idea that no one inspired you, that you, in a sense, give no credit to anyone else for the inspiration to learn during the passage of all those years in school. If that is true, it is sad....you might as well have been taught by a machine.
Pete