Teachers overpaid

[guzzijohn]

It may appear that the US is behind compared to some other countries concerning education, but as has been pointed out successful testing may be a result of rote learning and teaching to the test. This was brought home to me after I had a chance to visit with an engineer from India during an airport layover. We were talking about the pros and cons of various educational systems. He said that he had two real concerns about education on India. First that students were forced at too early an age to have to go either a vocational track or a college track. Second he said that he felt that India was at the point to where they could to take an idea and run with it as good or better than anyone but that their educational system suppressed creativity. As a result he said that most of the great ideas and inventions still come from the USA, few from India or many other countries. As he put it all the skills and education are worthless if you cannot dream and create the ideas that education and skill than bring to reality and that is where the USA still shines.
GuzziJohn

[Dee]

I run into AMERICAN teenagers all the time that can't count change without the cash register telling them what to give back. I talk to kids, that don't know simple things, but know how to ACCESS INFORMATION by computer, and are under the impression that flying a 747 on a simulator will enable them to actually fly the plane in reality.
I think the problem with the American education system, is that it has been liberalized by the government, to INDOCTRINATE, rather than EDUCATE, and has few redeeming qualities left, from it's more productive past.
American history has been diluted to the point of being unrecognizable in many cases, patriotism has been villainized, and sexual perversions are taught as NORMAL.
Also the AMERICAN FAMILY has deteriorated to the point, that moral values are seldom discussed, and character doesn't matter. This is demonstrated by our ruling class, commonly referred to as Republicans and Democrats.
Our education system is in trouble, our children are in trouble, and our country is in trouble, because of the "lack of values being taught not only at school, but at home. Foreign students do far better in our schools because they are better disciplined at home, and in themselves. Foreign students come not because of school quality, but because of school content, and available information.

[ironglow]

Planes, trains, automobiles, cookies, cameras, chickens, water valves, cell phones, cabbages and kings..
  Fair and open competition improves everything.

[Casull]

I cannot read your mind but those last two sentences in your post - about never having been instilled/the desire to learn just always being there - make me wonder. In a sense, if that is true, you are fortunate. In another sense, I have trouble with the idea that no one inspired you, that you, in a sense, give no credit to anyone else for the inspiration to learn during the passage of all those years in school. If that is true, it is sad....you might as well have been taught by a machine.

 
 
darkgael, I never really considered my situation to be anything but normal.  I think the desire to learn is just part of the human makeup.  I remember when my daughter was about 3 or 4 and her favorite question was "why".  I think we all have the desire, some more than others.  So, I don't consider myself fortunate or unfortunate, just typical.  I've always been a reader (used to be books, but now more internet).  Still, today, I'll decide I want to know more about a subject, and just start reading.  Might be a how to on welding, might be the origins of the universe.  As I said, I never felt "instilled" by a teacher, and for that matter, I never witnessed any visible indications among my classmates of any such occurence.  Now, we did have teachers that we liked more than others, and maybe paid more attention to them.  However, I don't consider that anything along the lines of being instilled.

[mcwoodduck]

  The major problem is the monopoly which is in place.  Centuries ago, each family paid for their own children's education, but here in America we understood the basic unfairness of that idea.  Thus, we decided to make education a joint venture, something like fire insurance.  The primary difference being that some pay a higher premium, others less and some no premium at all.  Originally, education was handled at a local level, later at aa state level and now the federal govt stirs the pot.     
             If we really want to give our children a better education, we should be using a "voucher" system (IMO).  Competition improves every product, monopoly is a deleterious force !
    If an auto repair shop, heating & air conditioning shop, landscape contractor, or new Doctor in town opened for business, the quality of their work would sort the 'wheat from the chaff', only the better ones would last...because people can CHOOSE whom they will patronize.
  Schools should operate the same way...compete; that will refine the product and the system.
 
  I assume those here who are teachers or have teachers close to them, figure they are well qualified.  With all out competition, as with ANY business..."the cream will rise to the top"..providing the cream is not held down by a union.
 
   If I were a teacher today, I would be campaigning for a voucher system to be put into effect...
 
  ....Guess I would just have to risk a visit by some fat guys and a couple broken kneecaps..    

Here is the problem I see with that- students will leave the bad schools for better ones. What does the better school district do with the huge influx of new students?

That is the cool thing about free economy.
As a bad school fails the school district can sell or rent the empty building to someone that thinks they can teach and run a school.  If the quality of education is good they will attract more students and lessen the burden on other schools.  If they are bad...
There is a town in Maine that has a very high end boarding / day school in the town.  The Town just pays the school to send all the local kids there.  They found it was cheaper to pay the full tuition for the school for each kid than it was to build, staff, and maintain a high school.
The Kids get a better education for with less cost to the town, keeping taxes down.

[reliquary]

The power of learning and the love of reading was instilled in me by my parents and siblings.  The teachers helped with it when I went to school. But we read incessantly at home, as individuals and as a group.  Sometimes even by kerosene lantern.  My dad had only finished the second grade and he was adamant that we five children would do a lot better than that.  He was almost completely self-educated.
 
 I have a bachelor's with three specializations (criminology, biology, and geology) acquired over a space of 16 years and a master's acquired by fulltime study while on active duty;  my best learning has always come from self-study.  My siblings are/were all successful in business and we all still read incessantly. 
 
My mom died at 92 and still learned a new word every day from looking at a library-level dictionary or the Reader's Digest "Word Power" section or National Geographic magazines.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[XD40SC]

  The major problem is the monopoly which is in place.  Centuries ago, each family paid for their own children's education, but here in America we understood the basic unfairness of that idea.  Thus, we decided to make education a joint venture, something like fire insurance.  The primary difference being that some pay a higher premium, others less and some no premium at all.  Originally, education was handled at a local level, later at aa state level and now the federal govt stirs the pot.     
             If we really want to give our children a better education, we should be using a "voucher" system (IMO).  Competition improves every product, monopoly is a deleterious force !
    If an auto repair shop, heating & air conditioning shop, landscape contractor, or new Doctor in town opened for business, the quality of their work would sort the 'wheat from the chaff', only the better ones would last...because people can CHOOSE whom they will patronize.
  Schools should operate the same way...compete; that will refine the product and the system.
 
  I assume those here who are teachers or have teachers close to them, figure they are well qualified.  With all out competition, as with ANY business..."the cream will rise to the top"..providing the cream is not held down by a union.
 
   If I were a teacher today, I would be campaigning for a voucher system to be put into effect...
 
  ....Guess I would just have to risk a visit by some fat guys and a couple broken kneecaps..    

Here is the problem I see with that- students will leave the bad schools for better ones. What does the better school district do with the huge influx of new students?

That is the cool thing about free economy.
As a bad school fails the school district can sell or rent the empty building to someone that thinks they can teach and run a school.  If the quality of education is good they will attract more students and lessen the burden on other schools.  If they are bad...What happens if the burden isn't lessened?
There is a town in Maine that has a very high end boarding / day school in the town.  The Town just pays the school to send all the local kids there.  They found it was cheaper to pay the full tuition for the school for each kid than it was to build, staff, and maintain a high school.
The Kids get a better education for with less cost to the town, keeping taxes down.

May work in that specifc case,I'm not sure of the logistics in "everyplace USA"?

[mcwoodduck]

If there is a profit to be made, Some one will figure out a way to set up a school and provide a better education at a lower price.
You may have 6 small schools pup up.  Creating a demand for teachers and a higher demand for teachers will raise the salaries.  Higher salaries will attract better people.

[BUGEYE]

If there is a profit to be made, Some one will figure out a way to set up a school and provide a better education at a lower price.
You may have 6 small schools pup up.  Creating a demand for teachers and a higher demand for teachers will raise the salaries.  Higher salaries will attract better people.

vouchers could do this very thing, except in my county.  the parents here would demand that their kids get bus service to the new school.  of course that would be a logistical nightmare.

since we're talking schools.  I've been taken to task because of my stance on cursive writing and since the brain is a muscle, if you don't exercise it, it'll shrink.  the elimination of cursive writing is another "dumbing down" of our schools. we are raising a generation of kids that can neither read nor write.

[jimster]

Teachers pay will be whatever the people that are paying the taxes can afford.  If the area and private sector is booming with small and large businesses doing well with new businesses popping up teachers can be paid XXX...if there are no tax payers the pay could be X cause that's all there is. When the economy does poorly the unions still fight for XXX, plus X.  The private sector takes a beating and shrinks, but I guess public employees and unions just ain't gonna let that happen to them no matter what. Sooner or later if the economy stays bad, and the Unions stand their ground long enough and numbers run negative long enough you get what is known in Michigan as...Detroit. You then make plans to shrink the city with bulldozers.  No tax payers, no teachers, no unions, no problems.  Works everytime.

[XD40SC]

If there is a profit to be made, Some one will figure out a way to set up a school and provide a better education at a lower price.
You may have 6 small schools pup up.  Creating a demand for teachers and a higher demand for teachers will raise the salaries.  Higher salaries will attract better people.

vouchers could do this very thing, except in my county.  the parents here would demand that their kids get bus service to the new school.  of course that would be a logistical nightmare.

since we're talking schools.  I've been taken to task because of my stance on cursive writing and since the brain is a muscle, if you don't exercise it, it'll shrink.  the elimination of cursive writing is another "dumbing down" of our schools. we are raising a generation of kids that can neither read nor write.

Sorry- the brain is not a muscle.It's a collection of billions of nerve cells. It still needs to be used to keep it stimulated.

[XD40SC]

Teachers pay will be whatever the people that are paying the taxes can afford.  If the area and private sector is booming with small and large businesses doing well with new businesses popping up teachers can be paid XXX...if there are no tax payers the pay could be X cause that's all there is. When the economy does poorly the unions still fight for XXX, plus X.  The private sector takes a beating and shrinks, but I guess public employees and unions just ain't gonna let that happen to them no matter what. Sooner or later if the economy stays bad, and the Unions stand their ground long enough and numbers run negative long enough you get what is known in Michigan as...Detroit. You then make plans to shrink the city with bulldozers.  No tax payers, no teachers, no unions, no problems.  Works everytime.

Not so where I lived and worked. The school districts with the incomes from businesses paid teachers better than the school districts who were mostly farmland.

[BUGEYE]

If there is a profit to be made, Some one will figure out a way to set up a school and provide a better education at a lower price.
You may have 6 small schools pup up.  Creating a demand for teachers and a higher demand for teachers will raise the salaries.  Higher salaries will attract better people.

vouchers could do this very thing, except in my county.  the parents here would demand that their kids get bus service to the new school.  of course that would be a logistical nightmare.

since we're talking schools.  I've been taken to task because of my stance on cursive writing and since the brain is a muscle, if you don't exercise it, it'll shrink.  the elimination of cursive writing is another "dumbing down" of our schools. we are raising a generation of kids that can neither read nor write.

Sorry- the brain is not a muscle.It's a collection of billions of nerve cells. It still needs to be used to keep it stimulated.

sorry doctor, I stand corrected.

[BUGEYE]

Teachers pay will be whatever the people that are paying the taxes can afford.  If the area and private sector is booming with small and large businesses doing well with new businesses popping up teachers can be paid XXX...if there are no tax payers the pay could be X cause that's all there is. When the economy does poorly the unions still fight for XXX, plus X.  The private sector takes a beating and shrinks, but I guess public employees and unions just ain't gonna let that happen to them no matter what. Sooner or later if the economy stays bad, and the Unions stand their ground long enough and numbers run negative long enough you get what is known in Michigan as...Detroit. You then make plans to shrink the city with bulldozers.  No tax payers, no teachers, no unions, no problems.  Works everytime.

Not so where I lived and worked. The school districts with the incomes from businesses paid teachers better than the school districts who were mostly farmland.

you obviously did not read his post.

[XD40SC]

Teachers pay will be whatever the people that are paying the taxes can afford.  If the area and private sector is booming with small and large businesses doing well with new businesses popping up teachers can be paid XXX...if there are no tax payers the pay could be X cause that's all there is. When the economy does poorly the unions still fight for XXX, plus X.  The private sector takes a beating and shrinks, but I guess public employees and unions just ain't gonna let that happen to them no matter what. Sooner or later if the economy stays bad, and the Unions stand their ground long enough and numbers run negative long enough you get what is known in Michigan as...Detroit. You then make plans to shrink the city with bulldozers.  No tax payers, no teachers, no unions, no problems.  Works everytime.

Not so where I lived and worked. The school districts with the incomes from businesses paid teachers better than the school districts who were mostly farmland.

you obviously did not read his post.

yes I did.

[XD40SC]

If there is a profit to be made, Some one will figure out a way to set up a school and provide a better education at a lower price.
You may have 6 small schools pup up.  Creating a demand for teachers and a higher demand for teachers will raise the salaries.  Higher salaries will attract better people.

vouchers could do this very thing, except in my county.  the parents here would demand that their kids get bus service to the new school.  of course that would be a logistical nightmare.

since we're talking schools.  I've been taken to task because of my stance on cursive writing and since the brain is a muscle, if you don't exercise it, it'll shrink.  the elimination of cursive writing is another "dumbing down" of our schools. we are raising a generation of kids that can neither read nor write.

Sorry- the brain is not a muscle.It's a collection of billions of nerve cells. It still needs to be used to keep it stimulated.

sorry doctor, I stand corrected.

You'll be getting a bill for the consultation.

[ironglow]

   What Jimster said is basically correct, but here is where the hurt starts...
    In areas, such as where I live (a very blue state govt), high taxes and ridiculous regulations have driven many businesses out..so taxes are raised on the rest of us.  The teacher unions of course, would never back off, saying.."we can see the tax base has dwindled, so we won't ask for raises". 
    Oh no; the raises continue , the spending continues on building projects etc. Our local district averaged out, costs well over $16,000 per pupil.  20 years ago, our local combined school district had 3,000 students and is now down to 2,300..but the costs have soared and building projects continue. Of course the overall budget is more the fault of the administration..whoi just keep slurping at the trough with ever increasing gulps.
  Much of the problem lies with bloated administrations.  I attended a high school (k-12) with about 900 students.  We had a principal and an assistant principal.  This 2,300 student complex has a superintendant with ? "administrators", 3 or 4 principals with likewise assistants..
  Common sense would say that as the total number of students decreased, the number od assistants and assistants to the assistants, along with teachers would decrease; but no..they have increased.  Entitlement mentality, I assume..and teachers may be taking some of the rap for a bloated administrations.
   
   I hasten to add, just because that is happening here, doesn't mean it's happening elsewhere

[BUGEYE]

IG, at one time we considered private school for our daughter and did a little looking around.
the tuition varied from $1800 to $2700 per year plus a few small extras.
when the county pays $16000 per student, there is some bigtime theft going on.

[Forestclimber]

If you guys want to do something positive for your local schools,  run for school board.  You all have good ideas.

[mcwoodduck]

If there is a profit to be made, Some one will figure out a way to set up a school and provide a better education at a lower price.
You may have 6 small schools pup up.  Creating a demand for teachers and a higher demand for teachers will raise the salaries.  Higher salaries will attract better people.

vouchers could do this very thing, except in my county.  the parents here would demand that their kids get bus service to the new school.  of course that would be a logistical nightmare.

since we're talking schools.  I've been taken to task because of my stance on cursive writing and since the brain is a muscle, if you don't exercise it, it'll shrink.  the elimination of cursive writing is another "dumbing down" of our schools. we are raising a generation of kids that can neither read nor write.

Sorry- the brain is not a muscle.It's a collection of billions of nerve cells. It still needs to be used to keep it stimulated.

If I remember Biology the brain in mostly fat.

[XD40SC]

If you guys want to do something positive for your local schools,  run for school board.  You all have good ideas.

great idea. At least spend one day in the classroom and see what's really going on.

[Casull]

great idea. At least spend one day in the classroom and see what's really going on.

 
I spent 20 years in the classroom.

[XD40SC]

If there is a profit to be made, Some one will figure out a way to set up a school and provide a better education at a lower price.
You may have 6 small schools pup up.  Creating a demand for teachers and a higher demand for teachers will raise the salaries.  Higher salaries will attract better people.

vouchers could do this very thing, except in my county.  the parents here would demand that their kids get bus service to the new school.  of course that would be a logistical nightmare.

since we're talking schools.  I've been taken to task because of my stance on cursive writing and since the brain is a muscle, if you don't exercise it, it'll shrink.  the elimination of cursive writing is another "dumbing down" of our schools. we are raising a generation of kids that can neither read nor write.

Sorry- the brain is not a muscle.It's a collection of billions of nerve cells. It still needs to be used to keep it stimulated.

If I remember Biology the brain in mostly fat.

It is mostly water. As far as organic material=you are correct; but not the same as body fat.The human brain is comprised mostly of fat matter (about 60%).  The myelin coating on each neuron is comprised of 75% fat matter.  Myelin, the protective sheath that covers communicating neurons, is composed of 30% protein and 70% fat. One of the most common fatty acids in myelin is oleic acid, which is also the most abundant fatty acid in human milk and in our diet. True fats are made of I glycerol molecule and 3 fatty acid molecules. arranged in chains. Oleic acid is one type of fatty acid.

[XD40SC]

great idea. At least spend one day in the classroom and see what's really going on.

 
I spent 20 years in the classroom.

and 1.what did you observe?
        2. what did you learn?

[BUGEYE]

If you guys want to do something positive for your local schools,  run for school board.  You all have good ideas.

A white person in this county has no chance.
as I sit here in my recliner, I can see the very nice plaque with my name on it thanking me for my volunteer service.  they surprised me at a staff meeting with all the teachers after 4 years as a mentor.  I cried.

[Casull]

 

   Quote from: Casull on Today at 01:16:15 PM

  Quote

great idea. At least spend one day in the classroom and see what's really going on.

 
 
I spent 20 years in the classroom.

      and 1.what did you observe?
        2. what did you learn?

     Did you read the OP? 

[darkgael]

If you guys want to do something positive for your local schools,  run for school board.  You all have good ideas.

Hence the idea that teachers work for amateurs.

great idea. At least spend one day in the classroom and see what's really going on.

 
I spent 20 years in the classroom.

I spent 50 years in the classroom. Sixteen of them (not counting graduate school) were sitting in a desk facing a teacher. The other 34 were standing in front of thousands of young people in many different classrooms. Up front is an entirely different perspective, physically, intellectually, emotionally.
The idea that experience as a student provides an adequate understanding of the demands of teaching is deeply flawed.

About instilling. I have been retired for some time now. About a year ago, 39 years after he'd graduated and made his way to Hollywood,  a fellow who  was a student of mine in 1971 sent me this note. It is one of the nicest things ever given to me about my effect on a student. It is a quote from an interview that he gave.
"Dear Mr. D: I am one of your students. Class of 1971.
'Through all the trials associated with working in a creative an tumultuous industry, what never failed to get me through was a sense of character instilled upon me by my teachers. To this day, I hear the voices of Knowland, Gold, Marcus, Doyle, Ryan and a host of others. They get me through the adversity; their voices undimmed by the decades.'
That means a piece of my Oscar and Emmy belong to you. OK with that?"
- Doug"
"a sense of character instilled upon me by my teachers". How do you test for that?

Pete

[XD40SC]

 

   Quote from: Casull on Today at 01:16:15 PM

  Quote

great idea. At least spend one day in the classroom and see what's really going on.

 
 
I spent 20 years in the classroom.

      and 1.what did you observe?
        2. what did you learn?

     Did you read the OP?

yep- what's ur point?

[Casull]

yep- what's ur point?

 
 
Sorry, thought I was clear.  I've spent a lot of time in a classroom.  The article indicated that teachers tend to be overpaid, considering the intellect and education level required and hours worked.  I indicated that I tend to agree.  What part did you not understand?

[XD40SC]

yep- what's ur point?

 
 
Sorry, thought I was clear.  I've spent a lot of time in a classroom.  The article indicated that teachers tend to be overpaid, considering the intellect and education level required and hours worked.  I indicated that I tend to agree.  What part did you not understand?

You stated you were in the classroom for 20 years. You agree that teachers are over paid. Based on your statement concerning being in the classroom for 20 years- my 2 questions are what did you learn those years in the classroom and what did you observe to form such an opinion? Please be as specific as possible.