Author Topic: Teachers overpaid (Read 12536 times)

Casull · « **Reply #150 on:** November 17, 2011, 02:03:40 PM »

Sorry, I have neither the time nor inclination to list what I've learned in those 20 years (assuming that you were at all serious).

XD40SC · « **Reply #151 on:** November 17, 2011, 02:10:28 PM »

Quote from: Casull on November 17, 2011, 02:03:40 PM

Sorry, I have neither the time nor inclination to list what I've learned in those 20 years (assuming that you were at all serious).

Well if it's going to take you that much time, it must have been alot. Sounds to me like those teachers earned their salaries.

Casull · « **Reply #152 on:** November 17, 2011, 02:49:45 PM »

Well, I'd certainly hope that if it took them 20 years, I wouldn't be able to write it all down in an hour.

XD40SC · « **Reply #153 on:** November 17, 2011, 08:02:50 PM »

Quote from: Casull on November 17, 2011, 02:49:45 PM

Well, I'd certainly hope that if it took them 20 years, I wouldn't be able to write it all down in an hour.

The following is proof that teachers have done their jobs and earn their salaries.
Generally, a four-year baccalaureate degree and three years of Law School are required to earn a degree in Law. Then you have to obtain a license by gaining admittance to the Bar in the jurisdiction in which you wish to practice.

Four years to earn an undergraduate degree, the major can be almost anything but most students choose Criminal Justice or Political Science; some institutions offer a Bachelor's Degree in pre-law. Before being accepted to law school you must take the LSAT which is a test for admittance. If the law student carries a full credit load they can conceivably finish in three years.
After graduating from law school the person will have a Juris Doctor (a doctorate of law) and may then take the bar exam in the state where they choose to be licensed. This usually occurs a few months after graduation. Most states offer the Bar exam in February and July, about two months after most schools graduate their classes. Results can take many months before they are announced. (July exam results are typically published in November!)

ironglow · « **Reply #154 on:** November 17, 2011, 11:14:24 PM »

I would opine that this discussion has lasted much longer than anticipated, but recent posts have ventured into an area I discussed in another thread.
That is the propensity for teachers, whether on the high school or college level to pontificate on subjects unrelated to their given expertise, and somehow consider themselves more qualified that John Q. in doing so !
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Let us go back to "square one"... It is highly likely that everyone here has spent from 10 to 18 years in the classroom, at least as students, thus having a reasonable working knowledge of how it works. Most teachers have 16 years in the classroom when they start their working life..
Public education is one field of endeavor, however there are thousands of others. Engineering, mechanics, retailing, social sciences, agriculture, military, public service, etc., etc., etc..... Fields many teachers may have no experience in.
Often these people also have many hours teaching, whether in a work, church, scouts, fire company, trade or other related fields and thus are not strangers to the task, so obviously neither teachers nor the rest of us should be given special credence beyond our field unless we have demonstrated a special acuity for it.
Make sense ?

Casull · « **Reply #155 on:** November 18, 2011, 03:47:02 AM »

IG, that makes perfect sense.

Quote

The following is proof that teachers have done their jobs and earn their salaries.

Those are two separate things, and proof of one does not equal proof of the other.

XD40SC · « **Reply #156 on:** November 18, 2011, 03:54:02 AM »

Quote from: Casull on November 18, 2011, 03:47:02 AM

IG, that makes perfect sense.

Quote

The following is proof that teachers have done their jobs and earn their salaries.

Those are two separate things, and proof of one does not equal proof of the other.

I disagree. They are very related. You can't have the one without the other.I'm also finished with this discussion.
" IT GOES ROUND IN CIRCLES"- Billy Preston.

XD40SC · « **Reply #157 on:** November 18, 2011, 04:11:48 AM »

Quote from: ironglow on November 17, 2011, 11:14:24 PM

I would opine that this discussion has lasted much longer than anticipated, but recent posts have ventured into an area I discussed in another thread.
That is the propensity for teachers, whether on the high school or college level to pontificate on subjects unrelated to their given expertise, and somehow consider themselves more qualified that John Q. in doing so !
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Let us go back to "square one"... It is highly likely that everyone here has spent from 10 to 18 years in the classroom, at least as students, thus having a reasonable working knowledge of how it works. Most teachers have 16 years in the classroom when they start their working life..
Public education is one field of endeavor, however there are thousands of others. Engineering, mechanics, retailing, social sciences, agriculture, military, public service, etc., etc., etc..... Fields many teachers may have no experience in.
Often these people also have many hours teaching, whether in a work, church, scouts, fire company, trade or other related fields and thus are not strangers to the task, so obviously neither teachers nor the rest of us should be given special credence beyond our field unless we have demonstrated a special acuity for it.
Make sense ?

I treated my children for a variety of illnesses while they were growing up. I now do so with my grandchildren. Using your logic, I'm as good as a pediatrician. Should I be payed as a pediatrician?

billy_56081 · « **Reply #158 on:** November 18, 2011, 04:24:23 AM »

Done?

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #159 on:** November 18, 2011, 07:21:35 AM »

Quote from: XD40SC on November 18, 2011, 04:11:48 AM

Quote from: ironglow on November 17, 2011, 11:14:24 PM
I would opine that this discussion has lasted much longer than anticipated, but recent posts have ventured into an area I discussed in another thread.
That is the propensity for teachers, whether on the high school or college level to pontificate on subjects unrelated to their given expertise, and somehow consider themselves more qualified that John Q. in doing so !
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Let us go back to "square one"... It is highly likely that everyone here has spent from 10 to 18 years in the classroom, at least as students, thus having a reasonable working knowledge of how it works. Most teachers have 16 years in the classroom when they start their working life..
Public education is one field of endeavor, however there are thousands of others. Engineering, mechanics, retailing, social sciences, agriculture, military, public service, etc., etc., etc..... Fields many teachers may have no experience in.
Often these people also have many hours teaching, whether in a work, church, scouts, fire company, trade or other related fields and thus are not strangers to the task, so obviously neither teachers nor the rest of us should be given special credence beyond our field unless we have demonstrated a special acuity for it.
Make sense ?
I treated my children for a variety of illnesses while they were growing up. I now do so with my grandchildren. Using your logic, I'm as good as a pediatrician. Should I be payed as a pediatrician?

Only if you want to go to jail for practicing medicine with out a license.
Almost anyone can teach. I say this as I have run training schools and taught technical classes. Granted, the more you teach the better you get at it.
Same with practicing medicine.
And while your analogy holds up, that just because you are a patient does not make you qualified to be a doctor.
We can all do simple medical diagnosis, I have done stiches on my self.

darkgael · « **Reply #160 on:** November 18, 2011, 07:23:48 AM »

Quote from: ironglow on November 17, 2011, 11:14:24 PM

Let us go back to "square one"... It is highly likely that everyone here has spent from 10 to 18 years in the classroom, at least as students, thus having a reasonable working knowledge of how it works. Most teachers have 16 years in the classroom when they start their working life..
Public education is one field of endeavor, however there are thousands of others. Engineering, mechanics, retailing, social sciences, agriculture, military, public service, etc., etc., etc..... Fields many teachers may have no experience in.
Often these people also have many hours teaching, whether in a work, church, scouts, fire company, trade or other related fields and thus are not strangers to the task, so obviously neither teachers nor the rest of us should be given special credence beyond our field unless we have demonstrated a special acuity for it.
Make sense ?

I disagree very strongly about the idea highlighted above - that the ten to eighteen years in the classroom provides someone with a reasonable working knowledge of what it is like to teach. I know that you did not say those last few words but I believe that idea is implicit in what you wrote. The student may have reasonable sense of how a school operates - maybe - but that is not the same thing.
Your statement reinforces the point that I tried to make earlier - that because it is highly likely that many of us spent all those years in school, the assumption is that they know what it is like to teach. That is just not so. Even the type of teaching that some folk do, as mentioned, while admirable, is not the same kind of situation as teaching in the public schools, not nearly.
All of those other careers mentioned - Engineering, mechanics, retailing, et cetera......none of them have the same number of people involved in their practice for the time that education does - staring from five years old and continuing until...?
Pete

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #161 on:** November 19, 2011, 04:59:43 AM »

Bottom line is this, you are paid what society thinks you are worth. Your opinion was neither sought nor desired. My job pays me what my employer thinks it is worth. My opinion was neither sought nor desired. It is my decision to show up at work every day.

A little word picture for you.

You invested 4 or more years in an education as well as tuition money, not a small thing. How much money and time do you have invested in your retirement? Were your 401k fund not returning on your investment would you just ride it out? Oh well, next life I'll invest in some other fund.

Or better yet double down and deny the fact your investment tanks further every day.

Your buddy at church has talked about how well his investments are going. Matter of fact he is entertaining the idea of early retirement. You now know good and well there are better opportunities for investment out there. Do you reinvest or stand pat?

If you are a teacher you are mentally capable of learning a new trade. By your own admission you spend many summers going to school to invest further in a go nowhere profession ( doubling down ).

Fess up you like what you are doing, and that is why you do it. This is like arguing with an alcoholic. No amount of reason or logic will change the fact they like what they are doing and will continue to do it as long as it is physically possible to continue.

ironglow · « **Reply #162 on:** November 20, 2011, 02:31:00 AM »

EO says;
" Bottom line is this, you are paid what society thinks you are worth. Your opinion was neither sought nor desired. My job pays me what my employer thinks it is worth. My opinion was neither sought nor desired. It is my decision to show up at work every day".
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

I fully agree that normally one is paid what society thinks they are worth...when the pay scale is arrived at in free and open competition. This does not hold however, when the wage scale is artificially set by union and government interference. When these two entities interfere, the natural rhythm of supply and demand is put askew. That goes for any field of endeavor, not just teaching.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #163 on:** November 20, 2011, 06:00:41 AM »

I'll disagree a bit with you here.

The school district agreed to pay what the union asked for. The district is not generally under court order to meet the demands of a union.

Who is the bigger problem the pro baseball players demanding exorbitant salaries or the owners for paying them? Each one is hoping to get something. NBA players and owners have reached the tipping point. They no longer have an equatable balance. The players ain't playin', and the owners ain't selling seats. They will figure out a new contract that allows both to be profitable... or they won't. The consumer will find a product that they demand and life will go on.

ironglow · « **Reply #164 on:** November 20, 2011, 06:15:57 AM »

Quote from: Empty Quiver on November 20, 2011, 06:00:41 AM

I'll disagree a bit with you here.

The school district agreed to pay what the union asked for. The district is not generally under court order to meet the demands of a union.

Who is the bigger problem the pro baseball players demanding exorbitant salaries or the owners for paying them? Each one is hoping to get something. NBA players and owners have reached the tipping point. They no longer have an equatable balance. The players ain't playin', and the owners ain't selling seats. They will figure out a new contract that allows both to be profitable... or they won't. The consumer will find a product that they demand and life will go on.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
The only problem here is that each worker should rise or fall on his/her own merits. With union contracts, one must take the incompetent with the competent and at the same rate. The natural winnowing process cannot work, which destroys the entire concept. Most workers have to prove their value or they don't keep a job, a quite natural process.
Competition improves everything !

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #165 on:** November 21, 2011, 05:44:46 AM »

ok,
Does this make you feel better.
I think teachers are over paid for what they are teaching. We should be focusing on Reading and Writing in English, Math, History, and real science. Teaching social adgenda crap of man made global warming, reconstructed history, and teaching to a test and not the process of how to answer the question.
And I understand dealing with 25 to 30 kids is different than dealing with 50 plumbers and mechanics. On a different note, I have a full time job and preparing for a class to make it interesting, make the guys think and do it in a way that makes them retain the correct information is hard even if it is only an hour or two class. I still have to go through the material, understand my subject matter and be ready for people to purposly try to steer me off topic. Not ot mention my classes are usually held after a full day of work by both me and the members of the class and trying to keep them engauged is difficult.

darkgael · « **Reply #166 on:** November 21, 2011, 10:32:05 AM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on November 21, 2011, 05:44:46 AM

ok,
Does this make you feel better.
I think teachers are over paid for what they are teaching. We should be focusing on Reading and Writing in English, Math, History, and real science. Teaching social adgenda crap of man made global warming, reconstructed history, and teaching to a test and not the process of how to answer the question.
And I understand dealing with 25 to 30 kids is different than dealing with 50 plumbers and mechanics. On a different note, I have a full time job and preparing for a class to make it interesting, make the guys think and do it in a way that makes them retain the correct information is hard even if it is only an hour or two class. I still have to go through the material, understand my subject matter and be ready for people to purposly try to steer me off topic. Not ot mention my classes are usually held after a full day of work by both me and the members of the class and trying to keep them engauged is difficult.

Remember.....Teachers do not set the curriculum that they teach; that is decided at the State level and given to the schools as a mandate more often than not.

Your efforts after work are praiseworthy indeed.

Pete

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #167 on:** November 21, 2011, 10:45:27 AM »

While I know in some places there are well publicized instances of "agenda teaching" in most places its not actually happening. People read about what some wacky school in California or Chicago is doing and assume that means ALL schools.

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #168 on:** November 21, 2011, 10:49:45 AM »

The fact that roughly 50% of teachers move in to other, higher paying, careers within 5 years of starting teaching leads one to believe that the people doing a study of teacher pay have a weak grasp of basic economic principles. If teachers were overcompensated for the actual work they do then there would be an over abundance of applicants and a string tendency for people to stay in positions long term. Since both ate far from true it stands to reason that this study is probably unfounded in its results.

Casull · « **Reply #169 on:** November 21, 2011, 11:13:58 AM »

Quote

The fact that roughly 50% of teachers move in to other, higher paying, careers within 5 years of starting teaching

Have a link to that study? My own experience would make me question that "fact".

DDZ · « **Reply #170 on:** November 21, 2011, 11:32:55 AM »

Something must be good about teaching jobs. Teaching jobs can not be found in this area. I personally know people that have waited 10 or more years to land a teaching job. Some have just gave up and moved on to another profession. If the jobs are that hard and under paying, I really doubt there would be such a long waiting line.

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #171 on:** November 21, 2011, 12:12:13 PM »

The tendency to conflate a local condition to the national level never ceases to amaze me. You live in a high wealth area where teaching is easy (many teachers say the pay would be less if a issue with greater oarental support) and pay is higher and suddenly it's okay to bad mouth all teachers based on your limited experience. As for a source on the teacher turnover rate....I'm on my phone right now but perhaps you've heard of this new thing called Google.... But what your research shows you won't matter, you've decided what you know already.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #172 on:** November 21, 2011, 12:13:25 PM »

Quote from: kevinsmith5 on November 21, 2011, 10:45:27 AM

While I know in some places there are well publicized instances of "agenda teaching" in most places its not actually happening. People read about what some wacky school in California or Chicago is doing and assume that means ALL schools.

HMMM, I seem to remember "agenda teaching" in the small MN high school where I went and it was still happening when my children attended the same school over 20 years later. I myself have learned alot more from life that "what I read about".

And yes, let's see the link to the "fact" that 50% move on within 5 years. Also in this "50%" how many were terminated before they were tenured? I bet this "fact" will be as false as the "most dangerous job claim" one supporter claimed until links were shown that it didn't make the top 15.

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #173 on:** November 21, 2011, 12:30:12 PM »

As for the study originally sited, they based their research on a very limited sample set of data. As a person with a degree in Molecular Biology who entered teaching as a second career Incan tell you their work is pretty flawed. The "working hours" they state for teachers appears to be based on the rather common belief that teachers arrive at school and leave school at the same time as students. My required working hours are from 7:15 AM to 3:30 PM as a minimum. That minimum means their "36.5 hour work week" is off by more than a bit. The reality is I get to school on average at 7:00 am and leave at 4:30. And I take significant work home and for weekends. As do all my coworkers (except the PE teachers, I admit they may have it pretty good). And as for their estimate if an average of 9 months of work....this average appears to only be in Utah, which has the shortest school year in the country. My state (NC) requires a minimum of 220 working days per year from teachers. That is the equivalent of 10 months, not 9. And as for "summers off" I have to take a minimum of 6hours of continuing Ed per year during the summer to keep my job and the tuition for that is laid for by ME. I don't want a big pay raise, but while I'm doing all this to Truro keep society afloat, could y'all please quit insulting me? Especially when most of what you say is just plain wrong?

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #174 on:** November 21, 2011, 12:34:31 PM »

Ah...so what was the "agenda teaching"? And was it school policy or one idiot with a podium? Myself and my fellow science teachers had to take our Anatomy Teacher to task for showing his classes "An Inconvient Truth" both because of its inaccuracy and total lack of relationship to his curriculum. The point wing he was the exception, not the rule.

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #175 on:** November 21, 2011, 12:42:49 PM »

Does this work for you guys or is Forbes to much of a liberal bastion for you?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/03/08/high-teacher-turnover-rates-are-a-big-problem-for-americas-public-schools/

Casull · « **Reply #176 on:** November 21, 2011, 12:47:40 PM »

It appears that North Carolina teachers do work more weeks than the norm. But, with an average salary of $48,648 for ten months work, that equates to more than $58,000 for a twelve month year. Not too shabby by most standards.

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #177 on:** November 21, 2011, 12:48:19 PM »

Or maybe this will be informative:

http://www.nova.edu/ssss/QR/QR13-1/gonzalez.pdf

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #178 on:** November 21, 2011, 12:50:59 PM »

How did you make it in the Internet without math skills? The average number if working days in a month is 22 (five days a week, average 4.3 weeks a month). 22x10 equals 220. I can make a you a bar graph of that if you like...

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #179 on:** November 21, 2011, 12:53:13 PM »

How the heck did you get 40.5? How many days do you think there are in a week?!?