Teachers overpaid

[DDZ]

DDZ- less than 1/3 of all teachers in the country are members of unions. In my state it's zero since NC is a right to work state. Once again we are seeing a local issue being talked about like it is a universal truth.

If you scroll down in the article you will see that public teachers union membership has steadly risen since 1960 to 2009. In 2009 70% of public teachers were unionized, and I'm sure it is higher than 70% now. I doubt it has dropped in the last few years. Not with millions of dollars of NEA and AFT funds going into the democratic coffers. The article has a lot of information about teacher unions, that you may not know about.  Things like, since 1989 the NEA and AFT have given 56 million in political donations, mostly to the democratic party. Which equals what Chevron, Exxon Mobil, the NRA, and Lockheed Martin donated combined. You will also find a chart on spending related to reading, math, and science scores.     

www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj30n1/cj30n1-8.pdf

The next article shows that there are unionized teachers in NC.  This article was posted Oct. 24 2011
teachersunionexposed.com/state.cfm?state=NC

[billy_56081]

If as you say 16.8% are leaving a year is truehow do you come up with 46%. 16.8 x 5= 84%. No the story say the rate of teachers leaving is 16.8%. Not 50 not 46 and not 82%. Simple math tells me something does not add up.

[darkgael]

There are some basic misunderstandings about statistics evident in the last couple of pages in this thread. That one about the 50% increase being compared to 16.8% is a dilly.
The original quote was that, over the years, the turnover rate has risen by 50% to 16.8%. That means that at the beginning of the study the turnover rate was 11.2% and it increased each year until it is now 16.8% (50% higher than it was at the start (50% of 11.2 is 5.6. Add 11.2 and 5.6 together and you get 16.. The publisher of the study may well have wanted the numbers to sound impressive. The same data could have been reported as "over the period of the study, the turnover rate increased from 11.2% to 16.8%." 
 
About teachers earning "the higher wages and benefits"....sounds good. It is very corporate. Just how do we determine that? What do we use to measure success? A test? That seems to be the way of it. So....who makes up the test? Who makes the judgement? Do we give the same test to every child? What do we want tested?

I wrote earlier about my belief that much of what is important is not testable. In addition, it is impossible to tell when a "seed" of motivation has been planted and when it will flower into something quite spectacular. It is a truism of teaching that the teacher rarely sees the finished person that the student becomes. Tests are necessary, of course, just don't place too much faith in what they tell you.
Years ago, (the year of the Challenger disaster) I taught a young man, named Carl, in what were called "General" classes. Not college prep. Maybe some would go on to college, maybe not. That was, unfortunately, the built in expectation if the teacher and the student bought into it. Well...Carl didn't. I didn't. Something got lit in him. He showed up at school  about eight years later to say "thanks for the help". He was a doctoral candidate at the state university.
Could we have tested for the spark that would give him a doctorate?
Pete

[billy_56081]

And of this 16.8%, 2% are retiees, while 7.5% leave a teaching job for another teaching job. So that leaves about 7.5% leaving the profession. Not shown of this 7.5% are the teachers who leave for misconduct or are fired for poor performance before tenure. The numbers keep getting smaller, and smaller. Amazing what a little simple math can do for a fact.

[kevinsmith5]

Billy if you aren't going to bother to read the article stop talking about it. It does say 46% of teachers leave in their first 5 years, about 2 paragraphs down from where you stopped reading. As for the utterly ludicrous claim that 7.5% of teachers are fired for incompetency each year I'd LOVE to see you offer some proof of that. I won't see it since you just made it up. You folks are starting to make me sick. You insult hard working people who do something they love for low pay that society needs them to do and then you claim they're over paid. You also refuse to accept any proof you're wrong by essentially sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "I'm not listening....!"

[kevinsmith5]

DDZ. There is NO TEACHERS UNION IN NC. There is an association which has voluntary membership. Very few teachers are members. Cato calls it a union all the time, but it is not. There are no unions in NC, period. Like most of the South we are a right to work state. Good god you people need an education...

[kevinsmith5]

As for simple math Billy, I've come to the conclusion that no math is simple to you. I'm also starting to wonder if you can read...

[billy_56081]

"So that leaves about 7.5% leaving the profession. Not shown of this 7.5% are the teachers who leave for misconduct or are fired for poor performance before tenure."
 
Reading comprehension 101, I did not say 7.5% were fired or left for disciplinary measure before tenure. I said, " not shown of this 7.5%" big difference.
 
Math and reading comprehension, it can't be taught.

[kevinsmith5]

Apparently not to you Billy...

[kevinsmith5]

Have you actually read the whole thing yet? Got to the line where it says 46% of teachers leave in the first five years? Come to accept yet that they're talking about leaving the profession, not a particular school? Seriously Billy, earlier you said 220 days was 40.5 weeks, couldn't grasp that 16.8% of all teachers per year doesn't mean 46% of beginning teachers can't leave over five years, and apparently can't grasp that some positions can turnover multiple times in the course of several years. You should probably quit while you're behind.

[kevinsmith5]

And Billy, since you obviously are firmly convinced that teaching is an easy to do, high paying, cushy job why don't you run out to your local school board and become a teacher? Put up or shut-up.

[mcwoodduck]

About teachers earning "the higher wages and benefits"....sounds good. It is very corporate. Just how do we determine that? What do we use to measure success? A test? That seems to be the way of it. So....who makes up the test? Who makes the judgement? Do we give the same test to every child? What do we want tested?
Pete

Ok this is the one thing the Department of Education can actually do.
Set an exit test for each grade.  Come up with 2000 questions for each subject and have randon questions evn if it only 10 from each subject on the test.  Common knowledge stuff everyone leaving a grade should be able to answer.  With 2000 questions you have too many to teach the test and you can actually teach the subjects and not the test.  If you want to apply corperate ideals to the test.
OK lets do it.   In my last sales job I got a 2.5% bonus if I hit 85% of my goal and the higher I went on my goal the higher my bonus.
Let's take a standard teachers salalary (and the old rule of thumb was people worked for the schools had crappy pay but awesomne benefits now they are paid equal or better than private industry doing the same thing with a better benefits package) But back to the idea.  If 85% of your class passes the exit test with an 80 or better you get a 2.5% raise, add 1/2 a percent for every percent over the 85 and again a bonus for a class average over 80.  So if 88% of your class passes the test and your class average is 85% you would get a 2.5% raise off the base salary and a 10% bonus for the year.  The next year if you do the same result then you would get another 2.5% raise and 10% of your salary.

[kevinsmith5]

You just gave almost every teacher at a low poverty school a huge raise and virtually guaranteed that schools in low income areas will never be able to get teachers. As for your claims about teacher pay....wow, you live in a fantasy land. How about you find a study other than the one this thread started with that backs that up?

[kevinsmith5]

And Woodduck the test you just described is what is known in North Carolina as an End of Grade Test. Been giving them since the mid-90's.

[mcwoodduck]

And Woodduck the test you just described is what is known in North Carolina as an End of Grade Test. Been giving them since the mid-90's.

Great,
are you willing to tie rewards and punnishment to it?
If your class does poorly are you willing to take a pay cut by 2.5% that will simply drive the bad teachers out of the system.
 

[mcwoodduck]

And Woodduck the test you just described is what is known in North Carolina as an End of Grade Test. Been giving them since the mid-90's.

Great,
are you willing to tie rewards and punnishment to it?
If your class does poorly are you willing to take a pay cut by 2.5% that will simply drive the bad teachers out of the system.

Are doctors willing to turn back their fees if the operation fails and the patient dies..? Are you willing to turn back money if your______ fails and the client looses money..? 
 
There's 8 pages of 'class warfare' stuff in this thread with the 'little' people attacking each other when there's much bigger fish to fry.
 
..TM7

Yes I do.  Did I mention I am in Sales and my pay is based on proformance and profit.  If my company does not make any $ then neither do I. 
If you are want the carrot you have to be willing to take the stick too.
Pay for proformance also would include a deduction for failure. 
Doctors get sued, patients don't pay.  Everyone in the world is on a proformance based pay schedule except Congress and teachers.

[XD40SC]

And Woodduck the test you just described is what is known in North Carolina as an End of Grade Test. Been giving them since the mid-90's.

Great,
are you willing to tie rewards and punnishment to it?
If your class does poorly are you willing to take a pay cut by 2.5% that will simply drive the bad teachers out of the system.

Are doctors willing to turn back their fees if the operation fails and the patient dies..? Are you willing to turn back money if your______ fails and the client looses money..? 
 
There's 8 pages of 'class warfare' stuff in this thread with the 'little' people attacking each other when there's much bigger fish to fry.
 
..TM7

Yes I do.  Did I mention I am in Sales and my pay is based on proformance and profit.  If my company does not make any $ then neither do I. 
If you are want the carrot you have to be willing to take the stick too.
Pay for proformance also would include a deduction for failure. 
Doctors get sued, patients don't pay.  Everyone in the world is on a proformance based pay schedule except Congress and teachers.

Good thing some people aren't paid by their ability to spell.

[Casull]

Good thing some people aren't paid by their ability to spell.

 
 
Was that directed at tm or mcwoodduck?  In any event, I believe we've all been guilty of that at one time or another.

[BUGEYE]

And Woodduck the test you just described is what is known in North Carolina as an End of Grade Test. Been giving them since the mid-90's.

Great,
are you willing to tie rewards and punnishment to it?
If your class does poorly are you willing to take a pay cut by 2.5% that will simply drive the bad teachers out of the system.

Are doctors willing to turn back their fees if the operation fails and the patient dies..? Are you willing to turn back money if your______ fails and the client looses money..? 
 
There's 8 pages of 'class warfare' stuff in this thread with the 'little' people attacking each other when there's much bigger fish to fry.
 
..TM7

Yes I do.  Did I mention I am in Sales and my pay is based on proformance and profit.  If my company does not make any $ then neither do I. 
If you are want the carrot you have to be willing to take the stick too.
Pay for proformance also would include a deduction for failure. 
Doctors get sued, patients don't pay.  Everyone in the world is on a proformance based pay schedule except Congress and teachers.

Good thing some people aren't paid by their ability to spell.

XD, you're getting ugly.

kevin, the union situation in NC will probably change soon.  the teachers, naacp, and union thugs are trying their best to get unions.  if the rest of you don't get active against them, your cities will become, as jimster says, detroit.

[XD40SC]

And Woodduck the test you just described is what is known in North Carolina as an End of Grade Test. Been giving them since the mid-90's.

Great,
are you willing to tie rewards and punnishment to it?
If your class does poorly are you willing to take a pay cut by 2.5% that will simply drive the bad teachers out of the system.

Are doctors willing to turn back their fees if the operation fails and the patient dies..? Are you willing to turn back money if your______ fails and the client looses money..? 
 
There's 8 pages of 'class warfare' stuff in this thread with the 'little' people attacking each other when there's much bigger fish to fry.
 
..TM7

Yes I do.  Did I mention I am in Sales and my pay is based on proformance and profit.  If my company does not make any $ then neither do I. 
If you are want the carrot you have to be willing to take the stick too.
Pay for proformance also would include a deduction for failure. 
Doctors get sued, patients don't pay.  Everyone in the world is on a proformance based pay schedule except Congress and teachers.

Good thing some people aren't paid by their ability to spell.

XD, you're getting ugly.

kevin, the union situation in NC will probably change soon.  the teachers, naacp, and union thugs are trying their best to get unions.  if the rest of you don't get active against them, your cities will become, as jimster says, detroit.

[darkgael]

About teachers earning "the higher wages and benefits"....sounds good. It is very corporate. Just how do we determine that? What do we use to measure success? A test? That seems to be the way of it. So....who makes up the test? Who makes the judgement? Do we give the same test to every child? What do we want tested?
Pete

Ok this is the one thing the Department of Education can actually do.
Set an exit test for each grade.  Come up with 2000 questions for each subject and have randon questions evn if it only 10 from each subject on the test.  Common knowledge stuff everyone leaving a grade should be able to answer.  With 2000 questions you have too many to teach the test and you can actually teach the subjects and not the test.  If you want to apply corperate ideals to the test.
OK lets do it.   In my last sales job I got a 2.5% bonus if I hit 85% of my goal and the higher I went on my goal the higher my bonus.
Let's take a standard teachers salalary (and the old rule of thumb was people worked for the schools had crappy pay but awesomne benefits now they are paid equal or better than private industry doing the same thing with a better benefits package) But back to the idea.  If 85% of your class passes the exit test with an 80 or better you get a 2.5% raise, add 1/2 a percent for every percent over the 85 and again a bonus for a class average over 80.  So if 88% of your class passes the test and your class average is 85% you would get a 2.5% raise off the base salary and a 10% bonus for the year.  The next year if you do the same result then you would get another 2.5% raise and 10% of your salary.

Mcwood: You appear to have done some thinking about this. NC, as noted, gives tests like this at present.
New York State has had a system of tests ("Regents" exams) administered to high school students. This testing program dates back to the 1930s. It is only at the high school level and not every student has to take it.
That last is the problem - at least at some levels - with the testing program as you describe it. Not all children are created with equal capability (the great flaw of the "No child left behind"  concept. Not everyone is as smart as everyone else. In NYS HSs, some children take the basic competency tests. Some take the Regents. The tests are wildly different in difficulty). Some schools are gifted with gifted populations. Some not.
How does one accommodate the difference? Would this be a national program or would the tests be local and specific to each State or to each school district? The more local the tests, the more different they will be. The more "federal" they are,  the less discriminating and, very possibly, less fair they are.
 At what point(s) would it be administered? Every year at every grade? (If so, that is a lot of tests to have in the can....especially at 2000 questions available for random selection for each test.). You can see the difficulties mounting.
Pete
Pete

[reliquary]

DDZ:  A few of us posted on that back somewhere in the discussion.  I don't feel like going back to look up the specifics.  I'm retired from teaching science in Texas, BTW.  Here's my take on it...
 
Most American public schools only teach the core subjects half a day.  The remainder of the day, students are engaged in "fluff & feelgood" things:  Speech, Theater Arts/Drama, Sports, Health/PE, Life Skills, Driver's Ed, Band, etc. 
 
Most Texas schools glorify sports to the extent that all other things are secondary.  Most athletes only do enough to stay eligible to play.  Even if athletes flunk the state achievement tests, they remain eligible for "play".
 
Most districts are more concerned with whether students achieve a passing score on the state tests, rather than learning the subjects in depth.  A few good students take "honors" and "advanced placement" classes, but most take the minimum they can get by with. I feel that, as teachers, we're obligated to teach the test to the students, since that determines whether they get a diploma...but I also tried to do as much in-depth teaching as I had time for in the school/state-mandated curriculum.

[Casull]

That last is the problem - at least at some levels - with the testing program as you describe it. Not all children are created with equal capability (the great flaw of the "No child left behind"  concept. Not everyone is as smart as everyone else. In NYS HSs, some children take the basic competency tests. Some take the Regents. The tests are wildly different in difficulty). Some schools are gifted with gifted populations. Some not.

 
 
 
The same variance in aptitude levels can, and usually does, appear in individual classrooms as well.  However, in those cases, the same tests are administered to all students.  Of course, some will excell, and those are your A students.  Others will do less well, and some will fail.  The test need only be designed to test for the required level of knowledge, such that a student with that level will score a passing grade.  As for those who excell, well they will excell.  As for those who fail, well they apparently were not instilled to acquire the required level of knowledge, and should not be passed (sorry if that hurts their feelings). 

[kevinsmith5]

Woodduck might wanna do a lot more research. The rewards system he describes has been in ace in NC in the form of the ABC's of education since the mid-90's. It really amazes me the way people "know" so much about how education works that is WRONG.

[ironglow]

    Introducing Karen Lewis, president of the Chicago Teachers Union ...Here she is busy ridiculing the Secy of Education, bragging about her own "weed-smoking days" and her "self medication"...and the teachers seem to find it humorous.
  Her mocking of the secretary did not bring any calls from the "rank & file" for her resignation. or even requests for an apology.
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1YXOSaMZzs
  Teachers, are you pleased with her style, demeanor erudition and her "Dale Carnegie" winning ways ?     
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
   Here's another video, showing Chicago teachers union using communist tactics to try effecting their agenda.  They are not above lying, starting trouble or using false, and deceptive tactics to get their chosen goons "arrested'..and then claim "it's for the children"..       
  Note how these 'highly educated' teachers are not above launching themselves into mesmerizing chants and "echo the speaker" repetitious yapping.
     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzvSbY3pz6I&feature=related

[kevinsmith5]

In the hotbed of corruption that is Dem controlled Chicago that's hardly surprising. The police chief there thinks the way to keep poor people from getting robbed is to disarm them. The elections board finds nothing unusual about having more people vote in an election than there are people over the age of 18 living in the district. Hardly a good standard for how things are about anything in the whole country.

[ironglow]

In the hotbed of corruption that is Dem controlled Chicago that's hardly surprising. The police chief there thinks the way to keep poor people from getting robbed is to disarm them. The elections board finds nothing unusual about having more people vote in an election than there are people over the age of 18 living in the district. Hardly a good standard for how things are about anything in the whole country.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Kevin;
   I'll grant you that, Chicago is "something else" and shouldn't be compared to Hastings, NB..for instance..
   ...But can we expect to hear protests from other unions... telling the Chicago union to quit making them look bad ?

[darkgael]

About competency testing: "

That last is the problem - at least at some levels - with the testing program as you describe it. Not all children are created with equal capability (the great flaw of the "No child left behind"  concept. Not everyone is as smart as everyone else. In NYS HSs, some children take the basic competency tests. Some take the Regents. The tests are wildly different in difficulty). Some schools are gifted with gifted populations. Some not.

 
 
 
The same variance in aptitude levels can, and usually does, appear in individual classrooms as well.  However, in those cases, the same tests are administered to all students.  Of course, some will excell, and those are your A students.  Others will do less well, and some will fail.  The test need only be designed to test for the required level of knowledge, such that a student with that level will score a passing grade.  As for those who excell, well they will excell.  As for those who fail, well they apparently were not instilled to acquire the required level of knowledge, and should not be passed (sorry if that hurts their feelings). 

Perhaps they weren't instilled, a teacher never gets them all. You are, of course, correct when stating that those who do not have "the required level...etc." should not be passed.
What we were discussing, though, is using those competency tests as the means for measuring the effectiveness of a teacher and tying that teacher's merit, salary, and benefits to that judgement.
 As another poster stated, not all  schools are created equal and what may be an easy test for mostly every child in one school may elicit a poor showing in a school with different demographic. So....teachers of equal talent may appear to be very different in terms of effectiveness. In some schools a teacher may be extremely effective if he or she is able to  help 50% of the students pass. In another, a teacher may be doing a poor job if only 80% pass.
In NYS, the same tests are given to "special education" students and higher functioning "college prep" classes. Just going by the numbers, which teacher do you think will appear less effective?
(another option available in NYS was that students - in HS at least - took different tests. College preps could take "regents"exams and the rest took basic competency tests. Would teachers be fairly judged under that circumstance?
Those questions that I asked about the nature of the tests themselves, the level at which they are produced (National? State? Local?)...what are the answers to those?
When the "No Child Left Behind" business started, States were pretty much left to sort those things out for themselves. What kind of uniformity do you think that produced? Do you really think that every test was as rigorous as every other? Do you think that, in general,  teachers from underfunded inner city schools in Newark, the South Bronx, Detroit, Atlanta, etc. fared as well with their charges as teachers did in well funded upscale suburban schools?
Pete

[Casull]

darkgael, I understand what you are saying, and I can appreciate it.  But, I believe that there should be a basic level of compentency required that is nationwide.  I think that no one should be awarded a high school diploma that can not read, write, and apply math skills at some minimum level, regardless of what area they come from or school they attend.  Will the brighter students and those that attend schools in "better" areas breeze through these tests with little trouble?  Most likely.  Will some students struggle to pass them?  Of course.  But, I don't think that we can accept any system of variable testing that allows students to receive a high school diploma, when they are functional illiterates (which has and is occurring).

[darkgael]

darkgael, I understand what you are saying, and I can appreciate it.  But, I believe that there should be a basic level of competency required that is nationwide.  I think that no one should be awarded a high school diploma that can not read, write, and apply math skills at some minimum level, regardless of what area they come from or school they attend.  Will the brighter students and those that attend schools in "better" areas breeze through these tests with little trouble?  Most likely.  Will some students struggle to pass them?  Of course.  But, I don't think that we can accept any system of variable testing that allows students to receive a high school diploma, when they are functional illiterates (which has and is occurring).

We agree. We are not alone in thinking as above. The difficulty - and fairly implementing such a system has proven difficult to the point of impossiblity so far - is making such a system of tests that actually do what you outline and administering them. Even getting "people" to agree what should be on the tests - what exactly is basic competency has proven difficult. We think that it should be obvious....it is not so to everyone. Try testing for it.
And then there is the act of using the tests to determine who is a good teacher and who is overpaid. Those "brighter students" who will most likely do well....is that because their teachers are better or is it because the kids had a more supportive background at home or because they are just naturally brighter or because.....?
Pete