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Offline mmt7714

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last idea for stepson.
« on: November 08, 2011, 03:27:32 AM »
Well, I have a 10 yr old stepson. He is a large boy for his age and really should be able to shoot most any centerfire rifle within reason, but he is extremely recoil shy. I let him shoot my .44 mag handi the other day thinking this would be the perfect deer rifle for his first season hunting with me but unfortunately he seems  to think the recoil is to stoutl. I know this is most likely all in his head as we all know that a .44 mag handi doesn't recoil a lot at all, but I am down to my last idea. I was thinking of picking up some .44 special loads for him to try. I have never shot specials out of this gun so I have no idea what to expect, but if I keep the range short and he can shoot them well, is this a viable option for deer? If not, well, he may just have to wait another year until he thinks he can shoot an adequate round.
 
Mike
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Offline necchi

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2011, 04:34:43 AM »
Quote
unfortunately he seems to think the recoil is to stout. I know this is most likely all in his head,,

 With all respect I think your right, and this can be a tuff one too break. If he hasn't been around shooting much it all piles up. If he's not ready don't push it, go back to square one with the .22 and work him up slow for next year.
 
 Blind loading the gun where he can't see if a live round is in the chamber or not and sneaking in a dummy round will show both you and him his reaction to a recoil, and you gotta work from there.
 Most everyone has some flinch, but a bad one is a mind thing, allot of it can be the noise. If you want a lifetime shooting buddy your gonna hafta take it easy on him and go slow.
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Offline thejanitor

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2011, 04:46:14 AM »
Shoot 44 specials ahead of time and let him get used to it but keep the zero with 44 mag and on hunt day have him use the mag load. And also you could add some lead shot to the stock, it will be heavier, but also reduce felt kick a lot. Hope you get it figured out before season.  thejanitor
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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2011, 04:52:54 AM »
i was  shooting  44 russian  in my handi yesterday


280 WFN  with  3 grains bullseye


REAL quiet........accurate out to 50 yards
at  100 yards  they were scattered at the bottom of the cardboard...too much drop




i would bet  a 44 special  in a rifle  would be close to a magnum handgun


try the specials
try the ball and dummy drills
once he learns to hold steady  on and empty chamber....slip  in a  few  magnums


my son was afraid  of the 20 gage  when  he was young.....[about 10]
an  instructer  lied to him....said  here try this  28 guage
he was so proud when he picked up the spend casing and discovered the deception
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Offline jloehm

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2011, 04:56:15 AM »
I agree with the above.  Start over.  Have shoot a few hundred rounds through a .22 to get his shooting mechanics worked out.  Go to a .44 spcl. round and throw in a .44 mag for hunting.  Don't push it or you could ruin him for a while.  Sounds like he'll have to unlearn the flinch already.  My 7 yr. (55 lbs) shoots a .44 handloaded down to .44 spl. +P velocities.  I'll let him shoot it about a half dozen times in a sitting, no more.  Always leeave them wanting more! Alot of flinching comes through the anticipation of noise as much as recoil,  so make sure he is always wearing good hearing protection.
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Offline parson48

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2011, 05:27:09 AM »
You've likely covered this base, but I'll mention it anyway. Be sure that he has adequate hearing protection. If not, the noise level will increase perceived recoil.

Good luck.
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Offline BBF

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2011, 05:44:51 AM »
Could it be that he doesn't like shooting at all and this is an indirect way to tell you?
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Offline mdwest

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2011, 06:16:51 AM »
my sons .44 mag handi is keeping the same type of groups with 240 grain winchester "cowboy" loads at 50 yards as it does with .44 mag winchester white box 240 gr.. point of impact change is negligible at that range.. and group size is virtually identical (sub 1").
 
the .44 mag has longer legs.. but if you plan on keeping shots fairly close (Im assuming a 10 year old probably isnt going to be shooting out to 100 yards.. but obviously could be wrong here).. the .44 special will be more than enough to kill a deer...
 
I started my son off with specials.. and then graduated him up to magnums.. (in the same range session).. After he shot several strings with the specials, and learned how to work the gun accurately (focused on breathing, trigger squeeze, grip, stance, etc..).. and got his confidence up by throwing a couple of really nice groups together.. we moved up to the magnums.. at that point he wasnt concerned about "kick" (the specials barely have any at all).. and just kept walking himself through the process of making an accurate shot... by the end of a couple of strings of fire with the magnums.. the size of his groups and overall accuracy was no different than when he was shooting the lighter loads..
 
 
 
 
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Offline jloehm

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2011, 06:22:45 AM »
Quote from: scatterbrain on November 08, 2011, 05:44:51 AM
Could it be that he doesn't like shooting at all and this is an indirect way to tell you?

I also thought this may be the case.  Maybe he doesn't like the idea of hunting,  and this is his out.
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Offline thejanitor

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2011, 06:57:40 AM »
Also does the stock fit him? This made a big difference for my daughters shooting.
thejanitor
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Offline Flynmoose

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2011, 07:36:09 AM »
I have shot some 44 Specials from my rifle (not a Handi) and it has a very mild recoil. I would not want to get hit by one judging from how the steel gong swings when hit. Congrats for trying to bring another young hunter along.
FM
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Offline Joe S.

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2011, 07:45:30 AM »
my daughter was convinced that i was lying when i told her the 30-30 topper with managed recoil ammo didnt have much recoil. i knew what she could handle and knew that wouldnt be much for her. i literally had to MAKE her shoot the thing. afterwards, she was all grins when she shot it and blew up the milk jug at 50 yards. she said next deer we see is down...

i feel your pain! finding something they will trust and can shoot comfortably can be a challenge. just be patient.

i agree shooting a 22 is good for learning basics, BUT i also disagree to keep him strictly on that. my daughter would shoot 22 ALL DAY LONG and never get tired of it, but she wasnt getting used to recoil that way. like was suggested, id let him shoot a couple 44 special loads per range session until he gets comfortable with that. then maybe shoot 6-10 specials and finish off with one magnum. once he is ok with that, maybe 2 magnums, and so on, til he is ok with it. i definately agree its in his mind...

or you could do what i did with my 15 yr old step son. i handed him my 444 and said here shoot this. he did, and said it sucked. then i said, "ok now shoot this 30-30. its no where near as bad." and he did and liked it. if for no other reason he liked it cause he didnt want to shoot that 444 again. ;D
 
i assume you have a nice recoil pad on the handi?
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Offline Spanky

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2011, 08:07:11 AM »
If he can't handle a 44 mag he doesn't need to be shooting. ;)
 
 
 
Spanky
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Offline Joe S.

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2011, 08:09:39 AM »
::)
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Offline mmt7714

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2011, 08:57:17 AM »
I appreciate all the responses and have considered most. He is especially shy of the sound as much as the recoil so i make sure he has proper ear protection. After shooting the mag twice and refusing to shoot it again I immediately handed him my single action .22 revolver which he loves shooting. After that I handed him my model 60 .22 which he also loves shooting and is very accurate with. I let him shoot until he was tired of shooting without saying anything else. I told him I would pick up some specials for him to try, and hope he likes them
I had not really entertained the idea of him not wanting to hunt. This is something I will speak to him about. As far as shooting, well he loves to shoot, as long as it is a .22. See, this all started with his real father taking him out "shooting" and just handing him a stout loaded 20 gauge shotgun when he was around 7 or 8 yrs old. No ear protection and no warning. He has been shy about shooting ever since. I guess I have an uphill battle to begin with.
As far as him not needing to be shooting just because he can't, or won't being a better word, handle a .44 mag, well I don't think that is the best way of thinking. To each his own, but I will gladly keep working with the kid.
 
Mike
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Offline Farrier Matt

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2011, 09:23:35 AM »
Keep trying Mike. Everybodys different, and while a lot of us may not think a 44mag kicks very hard, to others it does. Its a big, loud, intimidating cartridge to look at. If you handload, try some Trail Boss loads to get him started.Heck, if you dont handload, send me a pm, and Ill put some together for you, to let hime try. We gotta keep our kids in the shooting sports. My 16 year old step daughter doesnt like to shoot her 243 a lot with full power loads, but she loves the Trail Boss shells.
The Hogdon site says a 240gr cast bullet at a little better than 900 fps out of a pistol, from a rifle I would think it be a little faster. Id give it a try.
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Offline geezer56

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2011, 10:02:37 AM »
I started my grandson off on a 357 magnum.  We began with 38 special, moved up to 357 after he was ready and asking for more bullet.  He now has a 45 LC reamed to 454 Casull.  The thing is to not push it.  If he is recoil shy, that is what he is.  Work with what you have.  If you make a kid shoot something he isn't ready to shoot, you lost a hunting buddy forever, and you won't get it back.  EVER!  Too many folks make that mistake and we need all the next generation to follow that we can get.  Us old guys won't live forever, then who takes over in the woods and fields. 
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Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2011, 10:35:48 AM »
Let him shoot something that really kicks.  I was broke in at a young age.  When I was about 6 I got an H&R 410.  I was a scrony little kid and that thing would pop  me good.  I got used to it fast.  When shooting at animals I never felt it.  When I was 11-12 I graduated to a 12ga.  For deer hunting it was a winchester model 94 in 30-30.  It had a snappy recoil with a hard plastic but pad.
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Offline Spanky

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2011, 11:21:02 AM »
Quote from: Spanky on November 08, 2011, 08:07:11 AM
If he can't handle a 44 mag he doesn't need to be shooting. ;) 
Spanky

 
My post might have come across a little harsh so let me clarify a little.
I'm all for kids getting out and shooting. My nephew and I go out all the time and he is a very good shooter. What bothers me is a case of "my little Johnny wants to hunt but can't handle a gun". If they can't handle the gun they shouldn't shoot it. That's not being harsh, it's being realistic. A 44 mag rifle doesn't have any recoil to speak of even with full house loads. If the shooter can't (or won't) handle the recoil, whether it be a young shooter or an adult, they just shouldn't be shooting it plain and simple.
Now that being said... if he is willing to step away from the .22 and try the 44 again I would do exactly as described above. Load some cast bullets over Trail Boss and see how he does. If he still can't (or won't) handle it then maybe it's time to accept things for what they are... he just doesn't want to shoot that gun.
Not everyone will agree with me and that's alright.
On another note... you are a stand up guy and should be commended for working with the boy. The fool that let him shoot the shotgun should get a kick in the backside for doing that to the kid. Hopefully you will be able to get him on the right track and have him shooting comfortably and accurately with the 44. I wish you luck.
 
 
 
Spanky
 
 
 
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Offline jloehm

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2011, 11:25:09 AM »
Quote from: Spanky on November 08, 2011, 08:07:11 AM
If he can't handle a 44 mag he doesn't need to be shooting. ;) 
 

I can give you uncounted examples of the wrongness of this statement!  Here is one. ;)

 
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I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughing. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

Offline Default_Required

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2011, 11:48:38 AM »
Alot of good info already out there , Another suggestion is the 357 mag , That thing literally has nothing to speak of in the recoil catagory .. Real easy on the ears with full house magnums and you dont have to buy a completely new weapon to have the caliber ..
 
This is the route I'm going with for my 11 year old twin neices, It will also introduce my 5 year old daughter to shooting a centerfire caliber... After my 13 year old nephew shoots the 357 mag I have this funny feeling that his 243 barrel will be up for grabs here hahah  ;D
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Offline yukondog

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2011, 12:55:24 PM »
Yep get him a 357 and start off with38 spl. recoils about as much as a 22 then work up to 357 there is still no recoil to speak of. Keep up the good work and if not this year maby next.
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Offline pairishman

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2011, 04:04:54 PM »
To answer your original question...a 44 spc. will do fine on deer within a reasonable distance.  If he can shoot them, and shoot them well, have at it.  Shot placement is more important.
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Offline LabRat2k3

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2011, 06:48:22 PM »
I guess I'm just as cold and heartless as Spanky. If he is not ready to handle the noise/recoil of the .44 mag there is nothing to be gained by pushing him to do so. If that means he don't hunt this year, so be it, maybe he just isn't ready. Some people get into things later than others, some never. He may never hunt, may always be happy to plink with a .22, and that is fine. If he enjoys going to shoot with you be glad of that, when he is ready to step up he will. Pushing him to step up to a more "manly" gun may make him think of your range trips as less fun and more of a time where he isn't living up to what you want him to be. Just take your time with him, it will be worth it.
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Offline mmt7714

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2011, 02:43:08 AM »
Thanks for the opinions once again. I agree that if he isn't ready he just isn't. I don't find it cold or heartless, it's just the truth. I would never let him take a shot at an animal with a weapon he isn't comfortable shooting. I will try the specials and see if he likes them. If not, well we will just shoot whatever until he thinks he is ready. If he doesn't want to hunt then thats fine to. To each his own. Its not for everyone. I will give him every opportunity to do so though. I don't push the boy very hard in this department. I do push a little when it is needed, but I think everyone at some point needs a little light pushing. I don't however push hard and make him do things that he absolutely doesn't want to do. If he is just happy shooting .22's then great, I like shooting .22's too.
 
Mike
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Offline carp

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2011, 04:06:23 AM »
357 magnum
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Offline cjrjck

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2011, 11:56:13 AM »
44 magnum in a 7 pound rifle is no slouch. About 11 ft/lbs recoil. My son when he was 10 would not touch that thing. I started him on some light 30-30 loads. About 6 ft/lbs recoil. Don't let some of the above answers discourage you.
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Offline Doublebass73

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2011, 03:21:13 PM »
My son is the exact same way. He's 9 years old and hates recoil. He has a 45 LC Carbine with youth stocks. To get around the recoil thing he's been practicing with .454" round balls over 4 grains of Trail Boss all summer. Kicks like a .22 and is quiet, too. He loves shooting them and is going deer hunting with me this year. I sighted it in without him around with a proper hunting load, he'll never know the difference if he gets a shot this year :)
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Offline poncaguy

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2011, 03:44:44 PM »
Make sure his ears are really plugged, the noise probably amplifies the recoil for him............
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Offline BBF

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Re: last idea for stepson.
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2011, 04:47:17 PM »
Quote from: Spanky on November 08, 2011, 08:07:11 AM
If he can't handle a 44 mag he doesn't need to be shooting. ;)
 
 
 
Spanky

 That is a bit harsh. ::)
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