Author Topic: 460 Rowland rifle (Read 1999 times)

patw · « **on:** November 15, 2011, 03:23:07 PM »

This all started when a friend gave me a Mauser with a sewer pipe barrel. I could not stand having a rifle I could not shoot, and finally ended up putting a 16 inch 45 ACP barrel on it. I plan on getting a 45 cal suppressor and the acp seemed like a good subsonic candidate.
I was shooting regular 45 acp loads, but could not leave well enough alone. I started playing with hotter loads and heavier bullets. Slowly worked my way up through +P and 45 super loads with no problems. Final loads were with H110 and 300 Sierra bullets. I had to keep increasing the OAL to fit the powder under the bullet. The last loads I tested were OAL 1.385 and chronoed around 1000 fps. According to Quickload, that would be about max pressure of 18,500 psi. Initially I thought this would just be a fun plinking gun to shoot cheaply, but now I think this may turn out to be a hog gun.
I am in the process of changing the gun from 45ACP to 460 Rowland. There will be no chance of loads getting mixed up, and the brass will be better suited for these pressures. Range report to follow.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #1 on:** November 16, 2011, 02:44:15 AM »

I'm worried about hi pressure loadi vs getting into older or less strength firearms.

Being you have plenty of action... Why not or have you looked at the 45 winchester magnum?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Winchester_Magnum
http://www.chuckhawks.com/45win_mag.htm

Easy 44mag ballistics and never a worry about getting one into the wrong gun.

CW

243dave · « **Reply #2 on:** November 16, 2011, 08:12:36 AM »

CW has the best solution. If I'm not mistaken the 45 win mag is designed for an auto loader so it will have the same rim as a 45acp, this will keep you from needing to open up the bolt face or any other kind of modification. The 45 win mag will give more flexibility than the 460 rowland and have alot more hog thumping capabilities. It would be worth the time to check into and consider.
Dave

McDerry · « **Reply #3 on:** November 16, 2011, 09:03:25 PM »

If one didn't have sources for older 45 win mag data, I wouldn't even waste my time chambering for it over the Rowland.

Current Win mag data from hodgdon is on par with the rowland stuff.

243dave · « **Reply #4 on:** November 17, 2011, 02:20:40 AM »

But even the modern win mag data from hodgdon is sending 250/260gr bullets down range with slightly less pressure at the same speed as the rowland is sending 230gr bullets. There is a big difference between these bullets, 250/260gr bullets are for hunting while the 230gr bullets are meant for people. If the OP starts running H-110 from the 45 win mag and his rifle, he will see 454 performance easily, you won't get that with the rowland and heavier hunting bullets.

McDerry · « **Reply #5 on:** November 17, 2011, 04:41:54 AM »

Modern Data (as in current) from hodgdon isn't sending the 45 win mag into 454 territory. Infact most of the data they list for the 45 win mag is slower bullet weight for bullet weight then the 460 rowland. While they are not listing bullets of heavier weight then 230 for the rowland, 250 and 255 preloaded ammunition is available from Bigbore and Corbon in velocities much on par to the 45 win mag ammo. The only real promising loads in a rifle the 45 win mag is offering are the ones utilizing h110/w296. 230 gr bullets kill game animals just aswell as people, to imply that if it doesn't throw a 250/260 then its not capable is just obsurd.

The support for the 45 win mag, a dying cartridge from lack of available auto loaders to chamber a magnum auto cartridge, is just not there. Atleast the 460 rowland will not be going any place soon as it is a available conversion in almost any 45 auto platform out their.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #6 on:** November 17, 2011, 05:37:59 AM »

Quote from: McDerry on November 17, 2011, 04:41:54 AM

The support for the 45 win mag, a dying cartridge from lack of available auto loaders to chamber a magnum auto cartridge, is just not there. At Least the 460 Rowland will not be going any place soon as it is a available conversion in almost any 45 auto platform out their.

Based on your own criteria, the Rowland is floundering in the same obscurity soup as the win mag. Neither is factory chambered any longer. (not talking custom makers) Neither ever was very popular.

The fact is current data is based on SAMMI spec for this caliber, 40K. Data is available if your willing to look (Or ask the right people). The missing variable is barrel length. Both are bases on 5-6" barrels. The Rolland will not gain as much as the mag will. The WM will easily gain 4-500 fps from the longer barrel. Another benefit, the mag is a larger case, making it easier to hold and load for.
If you hoping to get such a short case to feed from a box mag... I hope you have patience of a saint...

Even getting the Mag case to reliably feed will be difficult.

CW

patw · « **Reply #7 on:** November 17, 2011, 10:11:27 AM »

I had thought of the 45 mag, and it still may be an option if and when the Rowland does not pan out. The Rowland seemed like the natural progression for what I wanted, ie a subsonic cartridge in a gun I plan on suppressing. What I was getting in the 45ACP case really fit the bill, but as already pointed out, some very high pressure loads that fit in a low pressure gun is a disaster waiting to happen. I do not think that would be a problem because I am loading the cartridges very long for the caliber, and the loads would not fit in the ACP magazine. Here is a picture of the normal ACP, one with the max load of H110 with a 300 gr Sierra, and an empty 460 Rowland.

That last load chronoed around 1100fps, but it was max, no more room under the bullet for my gun's oal. The Rowland will give me that extra .057 inch, which should make a lot of of difference. I run my loads through Quickload before running to the range. That max load shown above at 1.35 oal runs about 30,000 psi. Going down to 1.32 gets 54,000 psi, and going to 1.30 oal moves it up in fireworks territory. The same powder/weight loaded to 1.40 in the Rowland oal brings it down to 16,630 psi for a MV of just under 1000 fps. That is going to be my starting point for the Rowland, but it looks like I should be able to get 1250 fps with the 300 gr bullet. I will not be able to tell until I get everything put together and see what the max oal will be. What is different here from all the published data is first that we are dealing with a 16 inch barrel, and secondly that I am not limited to the "normal" OAL since I will not be loading these in a pistol magazine.

243dave · « **Reply #8 on:** November 17, 2011, 02:11:42 PM »

Quote from: McDerry on November 17, 2011, 04:41:54 AM

Modern Data (as in current) from hodgdon isn't sending the 45 win mag into 454 territory. Infact most of the data they list for the 45 win mag is slower bullet weight for bullet weight then the 460 rowland. While they are not listing bullets of heavier weight then 230 for the rowland, 250 and 255 preloaded ammunition is available from Bigbore and Corbon in velocities much on par to the 45 win mag ammo. The only real promising loads in a rifle the 45 win mag is offering are the ones utilizing h110/w296. 230 gr bullets kill game animals just aswell as people, to imply that if it doesn't throw a 250/260 then its not capable is just obsurd.

The support for the 45 win mag, a dying cartridge from lack of available auto loaders to chamber a magnum auto cartridge, is just not there. Atleast the 460 rowland will not be going any place soon as it is a available conversion in almost any 45 auto platform out their.

Please don't twist my words into something I did not imply. The 230's will kill very well at the velocity it was designed for(around 1000fps) but put that bullet in a rifle(like the OP is going to do) and drive it well over 1200fps and you will see very shallow wound channels. Now drive the 250/260 well over 1200fps and you will get exit wounds and blood trails if they are needed.
When I said the win mag will drive a 250/260gr bullet to the same velocity that the rowland will drive 230gr bullets with less pressure, I wasn't just blowing smoke. Look at the hodgdon website real fast and it will bear this out.
And as for the 45 win mag getting into 454 velocities, it wouldn't be hard to drive 300gr bullets to 1600fps from a rifle barrel with a bit of H-110 when loading to 40,000 cups. 1600fps with 300gr bullets is 454 territory.
I'm not trying to be a know it all or smart-###. I have played around with a 45 colt rifle for a while and have ran 230-300gr bullets on game and have a good understanding of what kind of velocity can be achieved when switching from a 5 inch barrel to a 16 inch barrel with powders like H-110. Its just my opinion that the 45 win mag would be a much better hunting cartridge than the 460 rowland in the OP's rifle. Nothing wrong with the rowland, its a fine round, but it was meant to maximize the 1911 platform. I imagine Pat will do just fine with the rowland but I'm pretty sure he could squeeze out a few hundred FPS more out of the win mag when loaded to 40,000cups.
Pat, let us know how your project goes. The reason I even commented on this post is because I think it is interesting and worth while. I bet a 460 Rowland rifle will be fun !!
Dave

patw · « **Reply #9 on:** November 17, 2011, 03:31:25 PM »

I did not mean to start any controversy with my project. I think you could pick any cartridge and have fun seeing what can be done with it, and that what I am doing here. I once read about someone who built a 25 acp rifle. I wondered why in the world would anyone want to do that, then realized he probably had a ball doing it. FWIW, I have a Rossi 454 and a couple of 45-70 single shot rifles that would probably outdo anything I can accomplish with my Mauser 45ACP/460 Rowland/45Win mag. They just are not as much fun.
BTW, I ran the program with the 45 Win Mag and in the 16 inch barrel it should get 1600 fps with a 300 grain bullet. That would definitely be a good hog buster.

I have to say it has been an interesting project. I sent the rifle to be drilled and tapped for a Leupold base, but when I mounted the scope, I found out that the bolt handle would not clear the scope. So..... I just attached a picatinny rail to the base and attached high rings to clear the bolt. The military stock I cut square in a miter say and will finish it later. What I ended up with is something I am too ashamed to post a picture of. It has to be the ugliest firearm that has ever seen daylight. But I still like playing with it.

It will take me a few days to take things apart and back together, but I will let you know what transpires with the rifle in 460 Rowland.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #10 on:** November 18, 2011, 12:49:36 AM »

Dave is spot on, regardless of caliber it's gonna be a fun project!

I thought about making a 450 Marlin on a Mauser bolt some years ago when it first came out. Thinking it might be nice alternative to a 458 short... Never did it.

Keep us posted and please do post up pics. It's a work in progress, so what. Your enjoying it and that's what it's all about!

CW

McDerry · « **Reply #11 on:** November 18, 2011, 08:38:30 PM »

Personally I've towed with the concept of cutting a 45 auto chamber to 2.225 deep and loading cut back 06' cases as if they where 444 marlins.

yooper77 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 18, 2011, 09:15:52 PM »

Quote from: McDerry on November 18, 2011, 08:38:30 PM

Personally I've towed with the concept of cutting a 45 auto chamber to 2.225 deep and loading cut back 06' cases as if they where 444 marlins.

Like the 44 Auto Mag cartridge designed back in the 1970's which used 308 Winchester case (or any other member of the 30-06 Springfield family), but used .429 caliber bullets for the 44 Remington Magnum.

yooper77

anachronism · « **Reply #13 on:** November 19, 2011, 02:13:58 AM »

If it's adventure you're after... 308 Winchester brass can be expanded, cut down, and inside neck reamed for super-duty 45 Win Mag brass. Now this could be an interesting carbine round, that doesn't require expensive custom dies.

patw · « **Reply #14 on:** November 20, 2011, 03:41:00 PM »

Quote from: anachronism on November 19, 2011, 02:13:58 AM

If it's adventure you're after... 308 Winchester brass can be expanded, cut down, and inside neck reamed for super-duty 45 Win Mag brass. Now this could be an interesting carbine round, that doesn't require expensive custom dies.

Sounds interesting, but I know nothing of inside neck turning. How do you do it?

tacklebury · « **Reply #15 on:** November 20, 2011, 04:05:55 PM »

It uses a mini-lathe style hand case trimmer or one of these to thin the inside to spec thickness.

https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=5201&route=Case+Neck+Prep

smokehouserex · « **Reply #16 on:** November 20, 2011, 04:20:04 PM »

Hello patw:
A very interesting round, a 45 cal. in a bolt action mauser. I think if you use the 308 or 30-06 case wheather shortning the 06 case or not, would give you a very POTENT round and the velocity would be there with low pressure or you could load it higher if desired.
Another important issue is feeding up from the mag. It will be a lot less trouble with a longer case as opposed to the ACP, roland or the 30x1 1/2. Believe you won't like trying to get the short ACP case to feed up reliably, unless you are a good gunsmith/tinkerer.
I believe it was in the 70's a man developed a 44 cal on the 06 case, he called the ALPEN iirc, and was well pleased with the results, I'm sure a 45 would be an outstanding choice. jmho
Mausers are fun and great actions, good luck with your project,
safety first
HM

patw · « **Reply #17 on:** November 21, 2011, 04:04:17 PM »

Got the Mauser set up for the Rowland, and found out that my max OAL lengths were much shorter than I had hoped for, not really much different from the 45ACP. I may get a reamer to correct that.

Had a chance to run to the range today. I had loaded some rounds with 250 and 300 gr bullets in the Rowland brass. Got to the range and got set up. I had brought everything.....except for the tripod for the chrono. Since I was there I decided to try the loads for accuracy. No signs of pressure with H110 up to 16gr for 250 gr XTP or 12 gr for 300 gr XTP or Sierra. Very pleasant to shoot. I was very disappointed with the accuracy. Most of the loads were 1.5 to 2 inches at 25yards. One load may be promising (250 XTP/16 gr H110, one large hole after five shots), but I did not have enough loaded up to try at 50. I will try again with the chrono when I get the chance.

BTW, I shoot this single shot, I have no desire to try to get it to feed from a magazine. The Rowland is not that much longer but it definitively seems to chamber easier than the ACP.

tacklebury · « **Reply #18 on:** November 21, 2011, 04:09:41 PM »

Don't know if you have any, but I've done some Longshot loads in the Rowland configuration in my NMB only using .45 ACP brass. I got the data at Handloads.com from this article if you are interested. They are snappy, but were very accurate.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=41

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #19 on:** November 21, 2011, 07:46:56 PM »

As the owner of a savage based 45win mag take my advice.

Go 450 bushmaster!!

Trust me on this. Performance that blows these other rounds you've messed with out of the water and a length that should solve most of your feeding issues

243dave · « **Reply #20 on:** November 22, 2011, 12:03:25 PM »

I bet the 450 Bushmaster would be good in a bolt gun, over 2000fps would be possible with a 16" barrel. I've wanted a upper for my AR chambered for it every since it came out, too bad money is tight.

patw · « **Reply #21 on:** November 23, 2011, 01:24:11 PM »

Tackebury, I just got some Longshot and will try it. Almost all the data I have seen listed it, so maybe there is a reason. I tried H110 because of the 16 inch barrel, but no harm in trying something new. (NMB=New Model Blackhawk?)

R.W., what are the problems with the 45 mag in a bolt action? That was going to be my next step cartridge wise, so if I can avoid a mistake, I want to know.

Regarding the 450B, I had considered it along with the 458Socom. Do you like it and what do you use it for? I have a 1/16 barrel, rechambering it to 450B would be an option, but would that not be too fast of a twist for the cartridge? The 458 Socom would require a new barrel. I liked the 450 because I could just rechamber the barrel, and the socom because it would keep the same bolt face. In both of these cases, it would be an interesting project, and it may still happen, but my goal for now is still a rifle that will shoot subsonic loads. If i cannot get this barrel to shoot accurately, it will be time to step back and figure out the next step. I am going to try more bullet/powder combinations. If I find anything that works, I will be happy. Any suggestion is welcome. If no combination is satisfactory, I will ream out the throat. If that does not work, it may be time for another project barrel.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #22 on:** November 23, 2011, 04:17:14 PM »

The problems w 45 win mag are manifold

1 it still falls short of 44 mag

2 there is no modern load data and no hopes of more to come.

3. Its really hard to get consistent ignition with that much magnum handgun powder handgun primers and NO roll crimp.

4. Too short to feed

5. In a McGowan barrelled scoped savage 45wm wasn't half as accurate as my bushmaster ar15 upper with a reflex sight

450 bushmaster 250g bullets 2200fps+

Much longer

Uses small rifle primers

Ammunition is avalible

A viable 200yd cartridge

Modern data with the most modern powders

I used my recently squires 450 upper to pole axe a doe at 90yds a couple weeks ago, accuracy has been supurb. I think very highly of this cartridge and wouldn't place too much on the twist rate difference

Modern data w

tacklebury · « **Reply #23 on:** November 23, 2011, 04:27:57 PM »

Quote

(NMB=New Model Blackhawk?)

Sorry, yes correct interpretation. hehe

spinafish · « **Reply #24 on:** November 23, 2011, 04:38:38 PM »

I got new load data for the .45 Win Mag for use in my 14" Contender barrel..all was required was for me to e-mail Johan at Ramshot with description of bullet I wanted to use..and most of the old data is still valid. I have found several loads with Blue Dot that are very accurate.