Winchester Apex

[big6x6]

This is BPI premier gun, supposedly.  I find it very strange that there aren't people recommending it left and right.  How many times have you seen an Omega recommended?  COUNTLESS!  

Is the price so close to an Omega that prospective buyers are buying an Omega instead?  Another idea is that the Optima is getting all the advertisement funds.  

I just don't get it.  There should be those posting of their Apexs' excellent triggers and groups on every forum.  They're not.

What's up?  Any ideas?

[RandyWakeman]

I just don't get it.  There should be those posting of their Apexs' excellent triggers and groups on every forum.  They're not.

What's up?  Any ideas?

Chuck, come clean on this one-- what was the trigger break on the last Apex you shot?

I'll hazard a guess-- most people are savvy to the fact that "Winchester" muzzleloaders are nothing more than CVA guns with a Winchester decal on them. If it smells like a CVA, folks just won't spend much money on them. The Spanish cannot seem to offer stainless steel barreled guns at a level dramatically better than those with American stainless. With the high value of the Euro, they can't get much cost savings over the Thompson Omega, which is the only thing CVA has ever had to offer.

The problem with trying to copy the Omega by "out-Omega-ing the Omega" is that Thompson just did too good of a job with it in the first place. The T/C factory iron sights are as good as any, the T/C manuals are perhaps the best, the T/C lifetime warranty is good whether you are the original purchaser or not, their bluing is better, and an attempted copy that just is in no way better than an Omega at a price point very, very close just isn't a source of great excitement.

Mainstream muzzleloaders that want more than the $83 Spanish specials find the Apex too pricey, and Thompson and Knight fans look at CVA product as a big step backward. I don't disagree.

[grouse]

:  You are correct Randy, A cva, Winchester would be a big
step backwards. Compared to my Knight and T/C.  :eek:

[big6x6]

I posted this same text on the CVA forum.  Not one person has said anything.  

I feel the need for a Apex/Omega shootout to settle the score!!!

[tuck789]

I had looked at the APEX but why spend that much for a gun that is made by CVA and all the other models made by CVA are more than $100 cheaper. CVA should have sold it themselves and cheapened the price. You can buy starter kit guns from CVA for 130 in my area. For that much what can you expect at longer distance shots? I would like to see the results of a shootout.

[Underclocked]

http://www.natchezss.com/p/076f.html

[big6x6]

It DOES look as if SOMEONE needs to do it!

[Underclocked]

Go for it Chuck, I have no Omega.

[sdgunslinger]

I also have a .45 Apex.  The gun has been totaly flawless in operation .  The stock feels better (to me ) than an Omega .  The trigger is very nice , don't have a guage , but would guess a very crisp 4 lbs .  Just about perfect for hunting in cold weather.

 
Groups with 195 gr QT Precisions and 100 gr FFFG T7 run around 1.5 MOA .  There seems to be absolutely no 209 blast .

Two of my hunting partners have Omegas and after comparing guns , I feel that the falling block mechanism on the Apex is superior to the Omega .  The generous trigger guard of the Apex enables you to shoot while wearing a heavy glove , something which is nearly impossible with an Onega .  That little feature is worth plenty  , hunting in Dember on the northern plains .

I bought my gun (plain blued version) for $270 across the counter , at that price I felt it was a better buy for my purposes than the Thompson .

Any more questions  ?

[tuck789]

What range were you shooting the 1.5 MOA groups?
Thanks

[RandyWakeman]

Right now, anybody can pick up a Thompson Omega from D & R Sports in blued / composite for $336, stainless / composite for $378, and stainless / laminated for $402.

Based on the price you stated, Pitbull, an Omega is a paltry 16 bucks more-- with a barrel built from American steel, by American hands, from an American company, with a lifetime warranty that goes with the gun, even to a second or third owner.

I'd have a very difficult time recommending a first year attempted Spanish copy of the USA produced Omega to anyone, complete with a lesser warranty, a sub-standard barrel proof, poor owner's manuals, etc., to complete the "deal".

[sdgunslinger]

tuck , that was at 100 yards , with a 3x scope .  



The Apex is far better than an attempted copy .  It is a dam good copy and in a few ways out Omegas the Omega .


And not everyone chooses a rifle based on whether it is Wakeman-recommended or not  .

[RandyWakeman]

And not everyone chooses a rifle based on whether it is Wakeman-recommended or not  .

Of course not. The question that follows is how do they choose a rifle? Glossy ad copy? A "sale"? What the guy behind the counter tells you? Something to throw in the cart at Wally World after you spent $200 on gym shoes for the kids? Or, hey-- "looks cool, I'll use these Cabela's bucks and just get one."

The best way is always try before you buy, personally. Only shooting, cleaning, shooting again can you have a solid idea of what a gun is really like "to live with." There is no reason to believe that is anywhere near the standard practice, as some guns are quickly praised or dissed before they are ever made.

Some have touted the "Optima" as great before the final product was even decided upon. Some have either loudly expressed interest (or dismay) about the Knight Revolution-- yet not a single production gun so much as exists today.

Many, many muzzleloaders are effective hunting tools. The differences between them are not just readily apparent until you live with them for a while, shoot them side-by-side, and maintain them side-by-side.

[woodseye]

I would prefer the Thompson from a value stand point as the BPI guns tend to have poor resale value. Something about that made in Spain barrel stamping that turns even unknowing buyers off to paying much. The Omega is also riding a real popularity crest right now and gaining quite a good reputation in the process. The prices quoted above by Pitbull are quite high!! $325 at Midsouth and $336 at D&R for the Omega as compared to $300 for the Winchester. Not a lot of $ difference at the new end but there will be a lot at the resale end if you ever decide to sell.

The Apex is far better than an attempted copy . It is a dam good copy

It is however still just a spanish "copy"............ none the less.

     woods

[big6x6]

"The Apex is far better than an attempted copy . It is a dam good copy and in a few ways out Omegas the Omega ."

Well, I'm going to find out.  I'm going to get one and have a litle "head to head" test comparing my other two .45s, an Omega and a Disc Elite, to the Apex.  I'm expecting equal or better accuracy, equally good trigger, and better velocity.

[sdgunslinger]

Many, many muzzleloaders are effective hunting tools. The differences between them are not just readily apparent until you live with them for a while, shoot them side-by-side, and maintain them side-by-side.

I have done just that , me with the Apex and my hunting parders with their Omegas .  The difference in the field is exactly ZILCH , EXCEPT you can shoot wearing a heavy glove with an Apex . Not so with an Omega .  The Apex has a much better feel and balance in ny hands than Omegas .


In my case , I made my choice , not from ad copy ,  but  by examing both guns across  the counter several times  and based on price , which was considerably lower for the Apex .  There is no reason in the world to pay $300  for a basic Apex .  I took a bit of a gamble on the Apex , it being a new design and somewhat of an unknown quantity , but it has payed off for me .  I got my copy at a low enough price that re-sale value is a moot point  in my view .  However , my Omega shooting buddies were very impressed with the Apex .  I doubt I would have a whole lot of trouble selling it if needed...


While the Apex is a design copy in the functional sense , there are considerable differences in the parts involved .  Probably enough to avoid any copyright  infringements .


If Thompson ever changes the goofy shaped trigger guard on the Omega , I may add a .50 caliber to the arsenal .  On the other hand , at this time a Savage looks to me like a better buy in the Omega price range .

[sdgunslinger]

Chuck Hill

Why would you expect better velocity  ?    It is still just a .45 caliber barrel with the same twist , I believe .  And shooting the same components .

[big6x6]

"Why would you expect better velocity ?'

It has the longest barrel of the three.

[Underclocked]

Chuck, thanks for taking the plunge (Natchez?)  :-) - keep us posted.

[bomtek44]

Gents,

Ralph Lermayer conducted a recent test, published in Outdoor Life, Oct. or Nov. issue, in which he did a head to head test of several BP rifles. I recall that the Disc Extreme, Apex, Omega, and the Optima, were tested. Editor's choice was the Omega. If you read the fine print, good groups (.9-.95 inch for five shots) were posted by all rifles except the Optima, depending upon the projectile fired. It seemed to be a fair and unbiased test, and addressed many of the issues mentioned in this forum, such as external and internal cleanliness, primer residue, fit,  etc. It was a good read. Ultimately the choice is that of the buyer and user.

[pitbull]

bomtek44,
   I read something about him hunting with just the apex,giving it a thum's up. I can't remeber how far he shot .

[pitbull]

woodseye,
            the reason being that the price's are high is that I buy my gun's from the local gun dealer's. I don't like to buy from chain store's. this way I can go in and handle the gun's first before I buy them.

[woodseye]

If your local shop is sticking you for that much additional money on these guns and I'd look for another shop. My local gunshop keeps the price difference close and I give them the business because of their added service. No need to pay that much more for a gun that can be mailed to you with no FFL. As you saw from my post there is $25 or less difference between the two guns.

     woods

[big6x6]

It shouldn't be a surprise to most of you that I bought Apex .45 SS with black composite stock.  Upon opening the box one thing is for sure, the Apex is a GREAT looking rifle.  My rifle came with plug screws for the open sights so I removed the sights and screwed in the plugs.  Next I installed Weaver 418 2-piece bases and loc-tighted the screws.  

I also bought a Bushnell 3200 3-9X40 from WalMart on close-out for $151.00.  That's a good deal for sure.  I used Leupold QR-W rings to mount the scope to the Apex.  This a good looking rig.

The rifle weighs 8.5lbs with the Weaver bases.  The barrel is 27.0 inches from breech plug to the end of muzzle.  Out of the box the trigger pull was just over 6lbs.  After the day at the range the pull has fallen to a crisp 4.5lbs per RCBS trigger pull scale.  

I chose projectiles that have proven to be accurate in my other two .45s, an Omega and an Disc Elite; Powerbelt Copper-Clad 275gr, Dead Center 195gr, and Barnes 195gr Expander, each with 100gr ffg 777.

Several things have become evident during range work with the Apex.  One surprise was velocity.  I was expecting velocity to be higher than the Omega due to the Apexs' somewhat longer barrel.  USEABLE barrel length on the Apex is 26.75 inches while the Omegas' barrel length is 25.85 inches useable.

Apex Velocity 100gr ffg 777(Omega velocity)
275gr Powerbelt Copper-Clad - 1718fps(1747fps)
195gr Barnes Expander - 1956fps(2036fps)
195gr Dead Center - 1904fps(1988fps)

Apex Velocity
275gr Power Belt Copper-Clad 2 Pyrodex Pellets - 1696fps
275gr Power Belt Copper-Clad 100gr Pyrodex RS - 1517fps

Accuracy.  
The best grouping projectile was the Powerbelt 275gr.  Best 3-shot group was 3.0 inches with 100gr 777 ffg.  The average of three, 3-shot groups was 3.5 inches.  Consider that my Disc Elite averages 2.2 inches for three, 3-shot groups with this load while Omega does 2.9 inch average for the same load.  Next best was the Barnes 195gr Expander.  Apex best group, 3.4 inches while the three group average was 3.8 inches.  The Barnes 195gr has proven to be an accurate performer in my Disc Elite and Omega giving averages of 1.33 and 2.77 inches, respectively.  The last tested bullet was the D/C 195gr.  Obviously not to the Apexs' liking the 3 group average was 5.6 inches, best group, 4.8 inches.  The Omega average for this projectile was 2.2 inches and the Disc Elite was 1.9 inch average.  I tried the loads of 100gr Pyrodex RS and two Pyrodex pellets with the 275gr Power Belt to see if either would group any better.  Both were markedly WORSE than the 777 loads.

Conclusions
Initial accuracy impressions put this rifle at the bottom of my three .45 cal muzzleloaders.  The load of 100gr 777 ffg with all projectiles is somewhat of a arbitrary load.  In none of the rifles was it chosen because of previous performance.  It was chosen because it is likely to be THE load one tries when first shooting a new muzzleloader, especially one to be used hunting.  Later in the week I plan on trying a more varied assortment of projectiles and propellant combinations to see if any more accuracy is there.  Although I my final conclusion will wait until then, I'm afraid I have I work cut out for me.

[RandyWakeman]

Well, Chuck, very good independent report. As for "I'm expecting equal or better accuracy, equally good trigger, and better velocity"-- it seems your work really is cut out for you.

Maybe one day muzzleloading manufacturers will figure out how to measure a barrel? :shock: Apparently, BPI / Winchester can't make up their minds-- even on their own website, excepted below. Whether 29" or 30" it would be hard for most people to readily discern that the "long barreled" BPI / CVA Apex has a real-world barrel length no more than 3/4" longer than a 26" barreled Austin & Halleck.

CVA is far from alone, as Thompson seems to have a rough time as well. A 28" Omega actually has a shorter effective barrel length than a 26" barreled Austin & Halleck. Go figure.

Chuck, you tell me-- what does your A & H measure muzzle to breech plug? The Provo, Utah guns I've seen REALLY are 26". In fact, the "26" barrel of my Weston, Mo., made A & H actually measures 26-1/2" muzzle to breechplug.








"Winchester Muzzleloading's new Apex Magnum 209 offers a refreshing change from other muzzleloaders. Strikingly handsome with flowing lines and smooth contours make it as visually appealing as it is functionally superior. With its simplified, shorter "swing action" breech the Apex allows the utilization of a 30" barrel without feeling "barrel heavy." Comfortable to shoulder and maneuver, exhilarating to shoot, and a snap to clean.

 
 Specifications:
---------------------------------
Caliber: .45/.50
Rate of Twist: 1:28"
Barrel Finish: Blued or Stainless
Barrel Length: 29"
Overall Length: 46"
Weight: 8lbs., 6oz.

[sdgunslinger]

Too bad your Apex didn't shoot a little better from the getgo .  However , all it proves is that mass produced rifles are unique individuals as to barrels and bedding .  Just as my Apex shooting 1.5 MOA with QT s doesn't prove that all Apex will shoot that well .  My rifle will shoot the 200 gr SST s into about 2 to 2.5 MOA , with my hunting charge of 100 gr T7  FFFG.  Most all reports of accuracy I've seen on the internet look pretty favorable for the Apex .

By the way that charge also turns up about an average of 2100 fps out of my rifle . (200 gr SST or 195 QT)  My barrel measures 29 inches from the front of the breechblock to the outside end of the barrel .  I suppose that's the way they are getting 29 inches. I'm not surprised that different barrels  , give or take an inch , will produce differing speeds  with identical loads .  That phenomenom is well known with centerfires , I don't see why front stuffers would be any different .

My hunting pardners seem to average about 3 MOA with their 50 cal. Omegas , but again , they don't do any load juggling , just load up 2 pellets ,  a sabot , and go hunting ..............

[RandyWakeman]

Initial accuracy impressions put this rifle at the bottom of my three .45 cal muzzleloaders.

The problem is quality control, and it still persists. Maybe one day BPI will be able to state what realm their "land to land" dimensions land in.

Chuck has spent more time with more muzzleloaders recently than most people ever do. Out of the box-- his Austin & Halleck is a great shooter. So is his Omega .50 and .45, his Knight Extreme, his Knight Wolverine, his Knight Disc Elite .45, and even the White 98 Chuck had (that had a bad breech plug). Even Chuck's T/C Black Diamond is a very, very good performer. There's EIGHT different guns, same shooter, that all have shot the Apex's dismal performance to pieces-- right out of the box. Every single example other than the Apex has yielded a 1.5" (or better) average group size with very little effort. Coincidence?

The same case with the CVA Optimas-- the first one I had came with a dancing 12 pound trigger, and its replacement sprayed most every combination I could give it before it grouped 3-1/2" at its very best. That Optima eventually had its barrel replaced two more times, at last count.

The X-150 was a better shooter-- but not by much. So when you recently test model after model of Austin & Hallecks, and they all shoot right at an inch, a new Savage that does the same, an Encore that is sub-MOA, a G2 Contender that is sub-MOA, a Knight Elite that is sub-MOA, a White lobbing massive conicals that does around 1-1/4", an Omega that is an 1-1/4" gun as well, all with no "tweaking"-- it is hard to be thrilled with a 5 or 6" gun that can manage a 3" group at its very best.

If someone has an Apex, Optima, or Traditions that shoots to their satisfaction, I'm happy for them. From where I sit, the trend is just far too clear to possibly miss.

One can say that "maybe" it is because the BPI / CVA / "Winchester" guns are totally Spanish owned, and I don't think "buy American" is a bad word. One can also muse that it is because I seem to care about triggers more than most-- and Knight / Austin & Halleck / and now Savage excel in that department, far above CVA / Traditions / Remington product. One can also come up with the theory that I like a warranty that stays with the gun, like Thompson-- rather than "original purchaser only." All that is true.

What I personally just don't care for is guns that don't shoot.

[big6x6]

"Most all reports of accuracy I've seen on the internet look pretty favorable for the Apex."

Personally, I have never seen a report other than yours.  Certainly no report that went into the detail mine did.  Obviously you give the Apex an "A."  Compared to my other "students" I'll have to give the Apex an "F."  That's an average grade of "C."  Now I don't know of anyone that is going to rush out an by a muzzleloader, car, dishwasher, or WHATEVER that can't perform with the competition.  

I certainly didn't NEED another muzzleloader, I just had to see for myself.

I emailed BPI this AM of my situation.  I got a PROMPT response.  I was instructed to try 225gr PowerBelts and perhaps change the scope or try iron sights.  I had decided to give the 225gr Power Belts a try before contacting BPI but I have a gut feeling it is a lost cause trying to wring out
any more accuracy.

"My hunting pardners seem to average about 3 MOA with their 50 cal. Omegas '

The funny thing is the next gun I shot was my Omega .50.  Shooting 300gr SSTs for the first time in this gun I was rewarded with excellent groups.  Using the 300gr SST with 100gr ffg 777 I shot the best group I've ever shot with a muzzleloader, 0.45 inches, with five 3-shot groups averaging 1.67 inches.  777 pellets, Pyrodex pellets, or fffg 777 might even better that.  And the list goes on and on of the load combinations that my Omega will shoot accurately.                    

I STILL think the Omega is the one to beat!

[pitbull]

big 6x6,
  I found my apex didn't like the deadcenter's ethier. it didn't like t/7 I swicthed to pyrodex select ,and tryed pyrodex rs both powder's produced the same best result's in my apex.it shot the 275grs with 100 grs of rs @ 100 yrds I used a quarter to cover a 3 shot group.using 215 grs qt40's with 90 grs of rs 3 shot group 2 holes where touching the 3rd bullet was 1/4" away from the first 2 .sst 200 grs with 75 grs of grs @75 yrds 3 shot's touching. I have a red dot scope mounted on it. you probable know more about muzzle loading then I will ever. but what did the bore look like inside?

[sdgunslinger]

There are a number of Apex  reports on the net if you look for them .  Several on the CVA board (I have seen your posts there Chuck), if you go back some months  .   Then there was pitbull right here on this thread , for one .

Fact is , combing thru posts by owners of CVA/BPI products of all types(including Optimas which Randy claims won't group all their shots in the same area code} , it seems most of them are happy with the accuracy they are getting . A few of them also seem to have drawn lemons.  I gave owner comments , both good and bad , alot of consideration before I ordered my Apex .


RWakeman..........buying American is a noble sentiment that unfortuneately has gotten to be difficult in all cases these days .  I notice on your scope thread you recommend 100% imported glass .  

Why not be true to your ideals and buy American optics also ?  Seems to be quite a double standard there .