Author Topic: Winchester Apex (Read 5283 times)

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #30 on:** January 22, 2004, 10:40:26 PM »

Quote

Why not be true to your ideals and buy American optics also ? Seems to be quite a double standard there .

Really? Saying "I don't think "buy American" is a bad word" is hardly an "ideal" of sorts. You can look for some sort of clear distinction between Leupold that imports glass, Bushnell (WorldWide Sports Optics, an American company), Zeiss that assembles Conquest scopes in Rochester, NY, and Sightron USA if you like-- and look for made in USA glass, but you'll have a very, very tough time. The only company mentioned that even makes their own glass is Zeiss, to my knowledge. No scope discussion is likely to result in Chuck's Apex being anything less than 100% imported Spanish product, from a 100% Spanish company-- nor will it make it shoot any straighter.

There are reasons for everything, and the only way to fairly grade any muzzleloader is based on what it does. Whenever the conversation erodes to the hoary "Ford vs. Chevy" genre, or vitriolic comments are presented solely to attempt to defend whatever purchase an individual has already made-- there just isn't much going on of any significant value.

All guns can be improved. As far as the Apex, if you are happy with yours-- good for you. As far as Chuck's experience, with it performing the worst, by far, of a pack of brand new muzzleloaders purchased withing the last year-- I don't blame him for being a bit less than thrilled. Who could?

big6x6 · « **Reply #31 on:** January 23, 2004, 02:14:41 AM »

"There are a number of Apex reports on the net if you look for them . Several on the CVA board (I have seen your posts there Chuck), if you go back some months . Then there was pitbull right here on this thread , for one."

When I asked about the Apex on CVAs board, two people, said they had Apexs and were "pleased" with them even on their home turf where generally there are only accolades, rarely any criticism. I have NEVER seen any owners other than pitbull and yourself that have even shot Apexs' on any other board and I registered on CVAs board 07/2003, HA on 04/2001, and here 04/2003. Again, Does that not seem STRANGE?

As far as "reports" go I guess it depends on what you call a "report." To me, a "report" is an EVUALATION with a little detail listing projectiles/loads/accuracy/trigger pull/etc. You gave your "report" and now pitbul has given his. The POINT is, Where are the others? There's just not that much data out there on the Apex. You better believe I have LOOKED!

I am GLAD pitbull and yourself have good shooting Apexs'. But let's consider right here by me is the SAME Apex muzzleloader that HAS proven to be my least accurate muzzleloader out of eight OTHER muzzleloaders, PERIOD. Nothing can change that fact...

sdgunslinger · « **Reply #32 on:** January 23, 2004, 02:24:29 AM »

Oh please Wakeman , you are not going to wiggle out of this one with such a bunch of double talk . Leupold may import some lenses , but it is still an American owned company with all American employees and assembles those products right here in the USA . Bushnell and Sightron have never built a single solitatry piece of anything in the USA . You more less condemn anyone who might want to own an imported Spanish built gun yet you recommend 100 % imported scopes .

It's a double standard all right .

Again , too bad Chuck's Apex isn't shooting a bit tighter from the start . but two other Apex owners on this same thread are getting good accuracy.

However , you would have to test dozens of Apex with several different loads each to get enough data to make a vaid statistical assessment of average Apex accuracy . You with your supposed engineering background SHOULD know this .......................

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #33 on:** January 23, 2004, 04:39:06 AM »

Quote

but it is still an American owned company with all American employees and assembles those products right here in the USA . Bushnell and Sightron have never built a single solitatry piece of anything in the USA . You more less condemn anyone who might want to own an imported Spanish built gun yet you recommend 100 % imported scopes .

You are quite wrong, have apparently never heard of Leupold "Wind River" binoculars, had a Bushnell "made in the USA Holosight"-- and I have never "condemned" anybody for shooting anything. I've also been to Spain several times, have friends there, and shoot my fair share of Belgium and Italian made arms as well. I also shoot a fair amount of Canadian lead and my PC has Chinese components. You can go to www.austinhalleck.com and find muzzleloader with a Spanish barrel that looks good and shoots better-- that I do enjoy shooting. I don't care what an individual shoots, that's their choice. If you have the need to make personal comments-- so you do, but that has nothing to do with muzzleloading product or performance.

sdgunslinger · « **Reply #34 on:** January 23, 2004, 05:32:51 AM »

I'll grant you Chuck there aren't numerous mentions of the Apex , but enough if you do some digging to get the general impression folks are getting . Also you can find quite a few mentions of folks that are very happy with the way their CVA s are shooting . Same barrels , right ?

As far as detailed reports , I'll also grant you many shooters are not that technical minded and don't quote exact groups , loads , etc. But if they are very UNHAPPY , you will surely hear some squawking . And i disagree you will only see accolades on the CVA board . There are a some unhappy shooters amonst many satisfied ones that have posted their experiences on the CVA board .

Randy , we were discussing riflescopes , and then you go and drag in such stuff as Wind River binocs and holosites. It doesn't change the fact that you buy American when it suits you , and buy imported when it suits you . Just like about everyone else . Nothing personal to it . I'm just stating obvious facts .

So quit with the "buying American is not a dirty word" crap already . You just don't have a leg to stand on in that quarter...................

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #35 on:** January 23, 2004, 06:02:38 AM »

Quote

Randy , we were discussing riflescopes

"We" were not-- the subject of thread was / is the Apex.

bomtek44 · « **Reply #36 on:** January 23, 2004, 11:27:50 AM »

big 6x6,

If that were my new Apex, I would not be at all pleased with the performance. I spent much time with my Rem. getting it to consistently shoot 1.5" or less. I cannot accept groups larger than that. I had my first inline (unnnamed) about 1996. It wouldn't be a steady performer, so I gave it a new home. Some people are happy if they can hit a pie plate. That just doesn't work for me.

I have also known people with Knights, Encores, etc. that shot poorly, by my standards. Exceptional guns are like finding the pot at the end of the rainbow!

pitbull · « **Reply #37 on:** January 23, 2004, 03:55:19 PM »

i've read post over on the cva fourm and seen negative post about bad accuarcy with some of there gun's so you need to go back 5 month's or so and read from there up untill now. I had the optima pro that didn't shoot worth a crap I posted my result's over there.

TCAS · « **Reply #38 on:** January 24, 2004, 02:38:49 AM »

I purchased an Apex last year from mail order, After I opened the box I realized it was an expensive CVA also it was difficult to prime or atlleast not as easy as my Encore or A&H.

Sent it right back were it came from ---no regrets.

TCAS

TCAS · « **Reply #39 on:** January 24, 2004, 03:00:28 AM »

Disregard my previous post, I actullly purchased the x-150 not the apex.

TCAS

Triple Se7en · « **Reply #40 on:** January 24, 2004, 04:33:54 AM »

Overall on the net in the last nine months, I've only read a couple of negative Apex threads. Either the sales of Apex rifles are very poor (or) BPI is producing a "well assembled" product.

In the past, I often admonished theApex cousin (CVA Optima Pro) line-up along with all Traditions bolt-action models. BPI has improved/tweaked their Optima in 4-5 different areas since it's introduction (but) the Traditions bolt-action models are still malfunctioning to this day... even the new Evolution model.

All I ask of new BPI rifle owners is to thoroughly read your owners manual before unpacking & cleaning your new rifle. Also, dry-fire the trigger a few times. If the manual language is troublesome & the trigger burdensome... send the new rifle back for a refund/credit. Buy a T/C or Knight instead.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #41 on:** January 24, 2004, 04:43:56 AM »

http://www.winchestermuzzleloading.com/docs/X-150.pdf

Quote

All I ask of new BPI rifle owners is to thoroughly read your owners manual before unpacking & cleaning your new rifle. Also, dry-fire the trigger a few times.

If you believe BPI / CVA / Winchester, page 9 of their owner's manual tells you that dry-firing an X-150 will damage the bolt and void the warranty.

big6x6 · « **Reply #42 on:** February 10, 2004, 02:03:02 AM »

Today, my .45 cal Apex is being returned for repair/replacement per instructions of BPI. Out of eleven new muzzleloaders, this is only the second one I've ever returned for ANY reason. Let's hope the BPI customer service experience will be less frustrating than my previous experience.

pitbull · « **Reply #43 on:** February 13, 2004, 01:15:51 PM »

chuck, what was wrong with the apex?

big6x6 · « **Reply #44 on:** February 13, 2004, 01:27:07 PM »

"chuck, what was wrong with the apex?"

Basically, it wouldn't group. It's best 3-shot group to date is 3 inches. Let's face it, that's not good enough.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #45 on:** March 09, 2004, 04:13:30 PM »

Hi Chuck,

Whatever did happen with your Apex?

big6x6 · « **Reply #46 on:** March 10, 2004, 01:29:31 AM »

Randy,
Well, I don't know.

BPI got the Apex on 02/11/04. They sent me a card saying they had received it and that "Repairs generally take 14 working days from the date received. If your gun has not been returned in 14 days, you may contact our Customer Service Department."

Danny at BPI also sent me an email on 02/19/04 also informing me they received the gun on 02/11/04 and that "the gunsmith will probably get to this package early next week." That would have been the week 02/23/04 thru 02/27/04.

I sent Danny an email on 03/02/04 to see what they had done. I have not heard from that email yet. I also sent him an email yesterday morning and have not heard from that email yet either.

So, no gun and no communication. I guess a phone call is now in order.

grouse · « **Reply #47 on:** March 10, 2004, 03:04:48 AM »

So, no gun and no communication. I guess a phone call is now in order.

A phone call might be the answer. A new Savage :-D
good luck on getting what you need done/fixed :-)

big6x6 · « **Reply #48 on:** March 11, 2004, 03:28:55 AM »

I just got off the phone with Scott at BPI. They have determined that the barrel was defective and are going to replace the barrel and they are waiting on new barrels to come in. He also told me if the barrel didn't come in by Friday(03/12), that they would send me a new gun.

pitbull · « **Reply #49 on:** March 12, 2004, 12:56:41 PM »

nice to know that they will go that far to make you happy. I didn't have that luck with the optima pro I bought .

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #50 on:** March 18, 2004, 04:32:24 AM »

Quote from: big6x6

that they would send me a new gun.

And how's the new one?

Elwud81 · « **Reply #51 on:** May 20, 2004, 02:46:54 PM »

Hi guys,
I have recently read through the thread concerning the Winchester Apex. I am an amateur shooter/hunter and I purchased an Apex last September. I am very happy with the gun. In fact, I shot my first deer with it this season. I did research different guns and gun reviews, and I found/decided that Knight, T/C and Winchester all had many people pleased and many people unhappy with them. After reading everyone's comments I have discovered that there is no black powder gun that is 100% accurate and makes every buyer 100% happy. And, I think that goes for all guns or whatever it is you are buying. I purchased a muzzle loader knowing that it would be a little off no matter what kind I got. And the Apex got the job done even with a beginner behind the trigger. I, as an amateur, appreciate all of your comments and insight on muzzle loaders. Thanks for your help.

Bigmills · « **Reply #52 on:** September 06, 2004, 03:12:12 AM »

I bought an NEW Apex, blued with a cammo stock for $259 from Harrys in NJ. I cant wait to try it out. Resale who cares at that price. I looked at the Omega and with fat fingers the trigger guard was too small.

Bigmills · « **Reply #53 on:** September 11, 2004, 03:28:01 PM »

Oh and a $50 rebate. Not a bad deal for a inline 209 Muzzle loader $209

jmckinley · « **Reply #54 on:** September 26, 2006, 09:50:17 AM »

I just purchased the APEx in 50 cal from Sportsman's warehouse for $ 189.00 and set a Bushnell Trophy in T/C Gorilla grip bases and rings. I have been asking on my post about load and bullet combo for this rifle with zero posts. I didn't buy it based on manufacture but how it felt in my hand and it feels and handles very well. I am new to the sport and will eventually purchase a T/CVV within the next few months but the quality seems fine to me. I'll find out Saturday when i head to the range to get it ready for a late season Mule deer hunt here in New Mexico. I'm to stupid to know the difference but first impressions have been positive to say the least.

Jess

Biff Mayhem · « **Reply #55 on:** September 26, 2006, 04:39:20 PM »

Quote from: jmckinley on September 26, 2006, 09:50:17 AM

I just purchased the APEx in 50 cal from Sportsman's warehouse for $ 189.00 and set a Bushnell Trophy in T/C Gorilla grip bases and rings. I have been asking on my post about load and bullet combo for this rifle with zero posts.
Jess

I will help you out Jess at 150 yards - then 100 yards.

130 gr Pyrodex pellets with 250 gr. Shockwave Super Glide sabot.

or

100 gr 777 (two pellets) with 250 Barnes Expander and Harvester sabot.

Masterblaster1 · « **Reply #56 on:** September 27, 2006, 02:48:20 PM »

I have the .50 cal full camo Apex and i just sent it to BPI because it is a POS. I think i got a lemon. After 50 non-magnum rounds, the hammer stopped hitting the firing pin hard enough to pop the primer, and eventually the action itself locked itself closed,unable to open. Very disapointed in my $350 dollar purchase. When it was shooting right i was having best luck with harvester sabots, 265 grn hornady .44 cal bullets, 100 grns T7 and klean bore primers. around an inch a 50 yards. Hopefully they can switch out the trigger group/action and get me shooting again before the season opens.