Author Topic: Located a 1960's Rare Sako H&R Ultra Bolt action Rifle chambered in .308 Win. (Read 11780 times)

MSP Ret · « **Reply #60 on:** March 27, 2012, 09:07:23 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on March 26, 2012, 01:45:01 PM

What makes it rare?

They are not Remingtons so you most likely would not like them. There were reportedly under 1,000 produced. Each one was hand fitted and hand polished to a fine deep high gloss blue. All had premium Douglas barrels, top of the line hand checkered Fajen walnut stocks with contrasting wooden grip caps and forend tips. The hand checkering was done by two women who lived locally to the factory. They have hand fitted and polished actions that cycle like glass and have excellent adjustable triggers. A lot of hand fitting, pride and precision went into each rifle....<><....

wvjoetc · « **Reply #61 on:** March 28, 2012, 01:43:55 AM »

A custom rifle produced in the factory and low production count, sounds pretty rare to me. I guess if it were a Winchester, Remington, S&W or Case XX it would make a difference in being rare. I think sometimes we make to much out of a name and don't look a little closer to the quality of a custom product. I'm not saying these other products are not good, but put the same tag on these others 1 of 1000 and see the difference.

Joe

Hammerdown · « **Reply #62 on:** March 28, 2012, 01:51:06 AM »

Quote from: MSP Ret on March 27, 2012, 09:07:23 AM

Quote from: Swampman on March 26, 2012, 01:45:01 PM
What makes it rare?
They are not Remingtons so you most likely would not like them. There were reportedly under 1,000 produced. Each one was hand fitted and hand polished to a fine deep high gloss blue. All had premium Douglas barrels, top of the line hand checkered Fajen walnut stocks with contrasting wooden grip caps and forend tips. The hand checkering was done by two women who lived locally to the factory. The had fitted and polished actions that cycle like glass and they have excellent adjustable triggers. A lot of hand fitting, pride and precision went into each rifle....<><....

Hello MSPRet
Nice summary of these fine Crafted hand made rifles. I have had Many Remingtons in the past, and still have a Model 788 that is a Tack driver, but they do not match the high quality of these H&R rifles. I have hand Loaded for my rifles and hand guns for years but this Gun is Far more rewarding to load for as it produces a one hole group. There was some Babble about the Mauser actions not being as strong as the Remington 700's but I sure am not seeing it and I have shot some pretty hot hand loads out of mine.

Don't get me wrong Remington "Used" to make some fine guns but they can not begin to compare to the quality of these H&R rifles.

The polishing alone on the actions of these H&R's more than Likely takes more time than the complete build of any Remington, and it show's when it is cycled.....

If they still made these H&R rifles today we probably would not want to pay what they would have to get for one due to all of the extra Pain staking Labor placed in one...

Swampman · « **Reply #63 on:** March 28, 2012, 03:14:30 AM »

I appreciate antique firearms, but when hunting I want an accurate rifle. Looks like H&R just assembled the parts they bought from other companies, or just put their name on a rifle built overseas. Clearly they sell or more would have been imported.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #64 on:** March 28, 2012, 04:39:32 AM »

Uh...OK...I guess....

....<><....?
I accept your opinion as just that, your opinion. I guess I could take out my Remington Model 700 BDL in .308 instead of the finely crafted H&R Ultra rifle. Of course the Remington is just a mass produced rifle and not half the quality or craftsmanship of the H&R Ultra. In fact I may do that, someday I may take the Model 700 out in the woods with me. The Model 700 is actually an excellent hunting and bang around gun, nothing special really, just another mass produced rifle off the production line, what is lacks in crafstmanship and quality it makes up availibility and popularity. I have Model 700 because I think it is a fine rifle, just not on the par of the H&R Ultra Rifle in quality, craftsmanship, fit, finish, and value/worth. Similar to driving a Ford or a Ferrari.....<><....

Swampman · « **Reply #65 on:** March 28, 2012, 09:33:27 AM »

No way a "handcrafted" rifle will be as accurate as one made on CNC machinery. The Model 700 killed all these guns off because it was less expensive, very attractive, and much much more accurate. They are an interesting piece of history though. thanks for posting.

Hammerdown · « **Reply #66 on:** March 29, 2012, 01:48:30 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on March 28, 2012, 09:33:27 AM

No way a "handcrafted" rifle will be as accurate as one made on CNC machinery. The Model 700 killed all these guns off because it was less expensive, very attractive, and much much more accurate. They are an interesting piece of history though. thanks for posting.

Hello Swampman
I take it from your comments that you have Never owned and H&R rifle ? If this is True how can you make a Judgment of them, or begin to compare them to a mass produced rifle ? I and MSP Ret have owned Remington's and both of us still do, therefore we can make a Logical conclusion or assessments of the Two very different rifles & Their Features. The Remington rifles are Mass Produced gun's with Mass Produced actions, Trigger's and barrels. They have no Fine Tune adjustable trigger's like the H&R has if you want that you have to replace the factory grade Remington rifle trigger with a Timney or CanJar adjustable style trigger, it will cost you about a Hundred Bucks, whereas the H&R comes with a totally adjustable Sako Match grade trigger all ready in it. The Bluing is Far More superior on the H&R rifle compared to any Remington 700 No Matter what generation of 700 we are speaking of they simply cannot compare, and the hand Polished actions in the H&R make the operation of them as smooth as Butter, something you won't see or feel in any Remington 700 rifle.

I Guess if your happy with a Cookie Cutter style Mass Produced cheaper to Purchase gun, then so be it, but I prefer to own a more elaborate Hand Crafted rifle to hunt and shoot Targets with. My Remington now sits Far Back in the safe Gathering Dust since I now have an H&R. The Douglas Air Gap Barrel is Far superior over the Remington 700 Barrels Douglas is well known for Match grade quality, and they claim the rejects out of their Plant are closer in tolerance & Spec. than any Mass produced barrel no matter who we are speaking of being the maker of such Barrels. To Appreciate the High quality of an H&R Rifle one must "First Own One" and secondly shoot it. I am Now looking hard for another since I have bought this one it has awoke a sleeping Giant in me to Realize and feel the difference in high quality, that simply cannot be had here or that has been Made in the U.S.A.....

Swampman · « **Reply #67 on:** March 29, 2012, 03:41:50 AM »

I've owned several, and looked at a bunch of them. When they turn up at shows the prices are reasonable. Only accurate rifles are interesting.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #68 on:** April 02, 2012, 02:43:58 PM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on March 06, 2012, 11:59:56 PM

Quote from: wvjoetc on March 06, 2012, 04:59:17 PM
Hey guys, I just found this thread. I have an H&R Model 301 in 243, Manlicher stock and 18" Douglas barrel, it has a Leupold 6X heavy crosshair scope. Jack always call this a Mauser Supreme action. My ol hunting buddy bought this gun new, Jack has passed on now but if I remember correctly he told me he bought this gun in the late 70's or early 80's. This gun has killed more WV whitetails than a pickup truck could carry. I worked with Jack for 15 years and he let me use this gun to deer hunt with, I traded Jack out of it about 7 years ago, and I lost my best huntin buddy in June of 2010. I'm sorry I'm not very computer savy I'd post a pic, but if one of you all will PM me with your email address I can do that. Thanks for this post it brings back lots of good memories for me and good hunts with my best buddy.

Joe
Good story! You can email it to me I will post here for you.

cwlongshot@att.net

CW

Here is the only pic that I was able to open...

I replied and requested pics be sent again but got no answers...

CW

CW, thanks for posting that picture of wykjoetc's Model 301 Mannlicher UltraRifle in .243. A beautiful gun. I also got some attachments from him but could not open any up.

I did more checking on my newly aquired 7MM Mag Model 300 UltraRifle. I am happy to report it is built on the Yugoslavian Mauser Action.

wvjoetc · « **Reply #69 on:** April 03, 2012, 01:30:08 AM »

This is a great thread guys, thanks to all that have posted and shared info on these great rifles. Lets don't stop keep on posting pics and information when you find it.

Joe

Hammerdown · « **Reply #70 on:** April 03, 2012, 04:12:30 AM »

Quote from: wvjoetc on April 03, 2012, 01:30:08 AM

This is a great thread guys, thanks to all that have posted and shared info on these great rifles. Lets don't stop keep on posting pics and information when you find it.

Joe

Hello Joe
I agree, but I think we are at a stand still as far as any More Pertinenant Information on these great rifles goes, Being that H&R is No Longer in Business as the Old Company was, and the newly formed H&R company does not have any record's of Past Production figures for these guns, as H&R Turned those over when they disolved the company to the ATF . Sadly most have not even seen these guns let alone owned one, yet they compare them to Other Mauser style actions of which these fine Crafted Bellgium Made FN actions are a breed of their Own, and I will Not argue with anyone that is Just Plain Ignorant to the differences in these FN actions. It has been suggested that only a Thousand of these fine Crafted rifles were made, but I have no solid proof of that and feel we may never find the real production figures. I have Hunted for one for better than 25 Years to no avail, so they are certainly not common or there for the taking. In comparing these Mauser style actions I have a Husqvarna rife that was made in 1967. It has a small ring Mauser style action but in no way compares to the higer quality of these H&R rifles with their FN Bellgium actions and to assume all mauser actions are the same is Just Plain Ignorant. I have had Many rifles in the Past with Mauser style actions but None out there can Begin to compare to these as they operate like they are on roller ball Bearings which comes from close tollerances and fine hand honing and Polishing, not seen in Mass Produced Production rifles no matter what brand we are looking at...

Hammerdown

Swampman · « **Reply #71 on:** April 03, 2012, 08:38:01 AM »

H&R imported some nice rifles as did Browning. I rarely go to a gunshow without seeing one. CNC machinery is the reason we were finally able to shoot MOA groups. Closer tolerances....

Hammerdown · « **Reply #72 on:** April 04, 2012, 01:39:45 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on April 03, 2012, 08:38:01 AM

H&R imported some nice rifles as did Browning. I rarely go to a gunshow without seeing one. CNC machinery is the reason we were finally able to shoot MOA groups. Closer tolerances....

Hello Swampman
I Keep hearing this CNC accuracy claim's out of you for M.O.A., but you really need to educate your self to what a "Premium Barrel" or where a rifle obtains it's Fine accuracy. The rifles accuracy is in the Head spacing and Quality standard's & Materiels used in the Making of the barrel that is Placed into the reciever . H&R chose the best of both worlds by mating a Supreme FN Mauser action which has alway's been known as one of the strongest, most durable actions ever made, with a Custom Douglas Premium air Gauge Barrel. These barrels are made to be within .001" or less when Made in their Total length. Here is what process is done when Douglas makes their Barrel's and where other's Always fall short as they do not have the Means, or materials to work with or the equipment to place into their barrel's finish quality, when we are talking of Mass Produced status to acheive a tollerance of .001" or Less when making them. Perhaps this will both enlighten & educate you on what a Premium Grade Barrel really is...No Hocus Pocus, No CNC Just super accurate hand Cherry Picked Premium Target Grade Match Barrels, That are Button rifled, Not Cut rifling which can make the world of difference on the internal bore finish for accuracy result's something Remington simply Can Not offer only perhaps in their 40X series of guns but I really doubt they are within .001" or Have air gauged quality In finished rifling machined tollerance from one end of the finished barrel to the other as the Douglas Premium Air Gauge Barrels do..Douglas claims their "Reject's" are closer in over all barrel tollerance than Most rifle makers can offer...and that is where the True accuracy of a fine rifle Really is determined....

-Douglas Premium Air Gauge Graded barrels

For the benefit of the super serious target shooter, premium barrels are "cherry picked" one step further. Barrel companies use a device called an air gauge to measure rifling uniformity the full length. Barrels that gage .001" or less variation from one end to the other are stamped "Premium Air Gage Grade". In our opinion, this feature is useful only to an extremely serious target shooter who is trying for the ultimate small target group and is of no value to the average shooter of mass produced production grade rifles, there simply is no comparrision.

Swampman · « **Reply #73 on:** April 04, 2012, 02:32:25 AM »

CNC machines make for .0001 tolerances. Many years ago Douglas barrels were considered pretty good. I don't think anyone gives them much thought now days. They are old hat. I'm just saying. Pretty is nice, I like pretty...accurate is better.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #74 on:** April 04, 2012, 04:26:13 AM »

Thanks for that great information Hammerdown, it really shows part of what goes into a fine rifle as opposed to a rifle off a production line which is mass produced for the the general public...Those mass produced, production line rifles may be adequate for the task as hand but the handfitted and handcrafted quality and precision evident in these limited production fine rifles is outstanding and far outpaces those production guns. It would be impossible to match these guns in todays market unless you spent thousands of dollars on a fine limited production custom built rifle....<><....

Swampman · « **Reply #75 on:** April 04, 2012, 04:35:46 AM »

Thankfully used 1950s and 60s european made Mausers are inexpensive and common.

Old Fart · « **Reply #76 on:** April 04, 2012, 04:55:17 AM »

One thing I've found over the years.
There's a place in my collection for both.
But I do clearly prefer enjoying a fine hand crafted weapon.

There's a reason why gunsmiths can make money fine tuning a production rifle.

wvjoetc · « **Reply #77 on:** April 04, 2012, 03:50:00 PM »

OldFart,

You are correct, gunsmiths make big money tuning production rifles. Swampy so you know Douglas does have a CNC machine, and have had for several years. I'm only an hour from Douglas factory and have been taken through their shop in Cross Lanes WV. Most of the employees have been with Douglas for many years and are excellant to deal with, and a product second to no one. I think pretty good is an understatement,

Joe

Swampman · « **Reply #78 on:** April 04, 2012, 11:47:32 PM »

Some people still feel that way. I like the rifle but we should keep in mind that they were all finished that way when it was produced. Many still are. They are bargins though.

Hammerdown · « **Reply #79 on:** April 05, 2012, 12:39:49 AM »

Quote from: MSP Ret on April 04, 2012, 04:26:13 AM

Thanks for that great information Hammerdown, it really shows part of what goes into a fine rifle as opposed to a rifle off a production line which is mass produced for the the general public...Those mass produced, production line rifles may be adequate for the task as hand but the handfitted and handcrafted quality and precision evident in these limited production fine rifles is outstanding and far outpaces those production guns. It would be impossible to match these guns in todays market unless you spent thousands of dollars on a fine limited production custom built rifle....<><....

Hello MSPRet
You are exactly right, and to know the H&R quality by owning one & shooting it is as Rare as the rifle. There is no comparision to other run of the Mill Mauser actions as so many copied the design but failed to improve upon it and add the features or high grade barrels that H&R Used which is my point. I have seen Ton's of other Mauser action rifles with Inferior barrels on them for sale at most gun shows but I always pass them up, as they are not H&R's Nor do they have a Douglas Barrel mated to their receiver as the New Remington's are Not what they used to be, they are a cheap slammed out production gun. I feel Reminghton spends more time on Re-call's these days than they do on putting out a quality rifle as well as their ammo that always seems to be recalled. I don't have time to spend on recalls. The 660 & 700 Triggers have been faulty since the late 1940's Yet the company denies this. If you choose to shoot a Remingtion be carefull you may shoot your eye out...

As for me I will stay with a High Grade H&R. I hope this Thread does not get closed for those of us who Know the difference of high quality in these H&R rifles and enjoy the discussion on them, who are educated enough to see & Know the difference of these fine rifles, as they are not your run of the mill Mauser action rifle, they are a Thourobred that would be far to expensive to offer today......I have a friend who is Pro-Remington who has over 25 High Powered Remington rifles who has seen, Handled and fired my H&R. He too now agrees that the H&R is a Breed by itself , unlike any other Mauser actioned rifle he has seen, owned or fired and has asked me to locate one for him. Some are willing to learn, then some just want the sake of argument about something they don't have a Clue about I Guess....

wvjoetc · « **Reply #80 on:** April 07, 2012, 02:31:39 AM »

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and he tells me he has 3 H&Rs on Sako actions. A 221 Fireball that has been rebarreled from a 222 (and still has the original barrel) a 223 and a 17/223 Ultra Wildcat. I will try this weekend and get some pics. He is a Sako collector and bought these through the years. I'll be getting back to you all.

Joe

Swampman · « **Reply #81 on:** April 07, 2012, 03:29:59 AM »

Go to the nearest gun show. They aren't hard to find. Semi-mass produced imports tend to be inexpensive.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #82 on:** April 07, 2012, 09:55:07 AM »

I have decide that some people just want to disagree and argue. The same poster that said new production line mass produced rifles (Remington's and others implied) are better, stronger and more accurate than older hand fitted rifles, and that new CNC machines produce rifle barrels straight their entire length to .0001" tolerance also said in another recent thread (posted below) "I wouldn't buy a new gun of any make right now. The quality is worse and a used one can be had for 1/2 the price of new." I have searched for and finally located the "ignore" button and I feel much better now. Life is too short to argue just to argue and to take opposite sides of the same issue just to argue against other peoples views and to stir things up....<><....

"

Re: ruger bought marlin? « Reply #12 on: March 30, 2012, 02:47:37 PM »

Quote

Quote from: nailbanger on March 30, 2012, 02:29:19 PM

I've read on the Marlin Owners site many unhappy posts reguarding the quality of the new Marlins.

Mostly sour grapes from old Marlin employees. I wouldn't buy a new gun of any make right now. The quality is worse and a used one can be had for 1/2 the price of new."

The last paragraph above is the response I am referring to. It is not a response from member nailbanger, our poster just "quoted" nailbanger and then posted the argumentative response that no new gun is as good as a used gun. In this thread he tells us no used gun is as good as a cnc produced new gun....

edited for clarity...

wvjoetc · « **Reply #83 on:** April 07, 2012, 09:56:28 AM »

I've never seen any Sako's that were inexpensive? I know around these parts you don't see many of them, when you do you could buy two Remingtons for one Sako. This is Remington country around here, a lot of deer hunters carry a 7400 Remington, me I wouldn't have one, but thats me. I've had a bunch of 700's and still have my 722/222 and wouldn't take two Sako's for it. I guess it all boils down to what you like and feel comfortable shooting.

Joe

MSP, I have to agree with you on that point the new guns that are coming out of the factories today is pretty pittyful. I'll stick with the old guns and be happy.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #84 on:** April 07, 2012, 10:04:49 AM »

I agee buddy, I much prefer fine older hand fitted guns whenever I can afford them. Most if not all newer production line guns are not of the quality of the older hand fitted guns. I also would prefer to stick to the older guns when I can. That and finding the ignore button has made me even more happy....<><....

Swampman · « **Reply #85 on:** April 07, 2012, 03:27:07 PM »

Not what I said really....any Remington 700 (even a new one from Walmart) will be more accurate (and always have been) than any mauser type action rifle. It will also be stronger and safer.

The mauser's are ok for big game. They are accurate enough and will withstand normal factory pressures.

Hammerdown · « **Reply #86 on:** April 08, 2012, 02:10:26 AM »

Quote from: MSP Ret on April 07, 2012, 09:55:07 AM

I have decide that some people just want to disagree and argue. The same poster that said new production line mass produced rifles (Remington's and others implied) are better, stronger and more accurate than older hand fitted rifles, and that new CNC machines produce rifle barrels straight their entire length to .0001" tolerance also said in another recent thread (posted below) "I wouldn't buy a new gun of any make right now. The quality is worse and a used one can be had for 1/2 the price of new." I have searched for and finally located the "ignore" button and I feel much better now. Life is too short to argue just to argue and to take opposite sides of the same issue just to argue against other peoples views and to stir things up....<><....

" Re: ruger bought marlin? « Reply #12 on: March 30, 2012, 02:47:37 PM »
Quote
Quote from: nailbanger on March 30, 2012, 02:29:19 PM
I've read on the Marlin Owners site many unhappy posts reguarding the quality of the new Marlins.

Mostly sour grapes from old Marlin employees. I wouldn't buy a new gun of any make right now. The quality is worse and a used one can be had for 1/2 the price of new."

The last paragraph above is the response I am referring to. It is not a response from member nailbanger, our poster just "quoted" nailbanger and then posted the argumentative response that no new gun is as good as a used gun. In this thread he tells us no used gun is as good as a cnc produced new gun....

edited for clarity...

Hello MSPRet
I fully agree, some enjoy derailing a thread or having it locked down, I sure wish a Moderator would step in and stop this unfounded annoying information which only serves the purpose of ruining this thread, and in my mind if you don't actually Own one of these rifles you have no bussiness commenting on them period. . For the most part us that have these rarely seen H&R rifles are intellegent enough to know the difference in a high grade rifle and I have enjoyed our discussion on these hard to find H&R rifles. They are "NOT" at every gun show or up for sale often as the previous owner's know what they have and hang onto them, much unlike the flooded market of inferior Remington's out there.. I Hit the Ignore button on my Under my user console as well as I am getting bored with hearing the same old misleading comments. I have some newer CNC Smith & Wessons as well, but they in no way can compare to the older ones in my collection. They have their place which is to be carried daily and beat down into the dirt, as they are worth very little in the current market Place where the older ones that I have are cherished and handled like fine china as they grow in value as time passes much like these fine H&R's do... Ignore button has been Launched... Hammerdown

Old Fart · « **Reply #87 on:** April 08, 2012, 05:01:09 AM »

This is a thread about H&R rifles.
Add to it with info on H&R's or stay out please.

Hammerdown · « **Reply #88 on:** May 13, 2012, 12:45:19 AM »

Hello Forum member's
Yesterday I decided to Break out my 1967 H&R Ultra rifle for some Range time. I have not fired it since mid November just before Deer season. It is chambered in Winchester .308 caliber & I had with me a Box of Handload's I had assembled for my Gun using Nosler accu-Tip 165 Grain Bullets with a charge of IMR 4895 Powder. Shown below is the actual group fired from my gun at the 50 Yard line. The 100 Yard line Target stands were destroyed so I was forced to shoot the closer range target stands that explain's why my group show's to be a Tad Bit lower. The group size was a three shot cluster out of a cold Barrel and it is half the size of a dime. I see no reason to improve or modify the load that I have selected for this gun...If you would like to see the gun's group's closer, simply click on the pictures as I left them in large format... Hammerdown