Scout rifles ?

[qwikrick]

I have been interested in a scout type rifle for some time now so when ruger came out with theres I thought that it would be the one, but after reading some mixed reviews about it I'm not so sure.
 
Do any of you have pics of your home made version of what you think a scout rifle should be ?

[mannyrock]

 
   As I have noted on similar posts, I believe Ruger totally screwed up with their so-called Scout, by putting a stubby 16 inch barrel on it, and creating a 10 round mag that hangs down like a brick.  A Scout is suppose to be a very handy, all purpose rifle, not a brush gun with a brick hanging underneath of it.
 
   Three weeks ago, I was at Dawson's Gun Shop, which is a family owned gun store in Woodbridge, VA, a short distance from the Quantico Marine Base, and Fort Belvoir Army Base.  There was a Ruger Scout sitting in the rack.  I talked to the owner, and he said that it had been sitting there for 6 months.
 
  He thought that due to the large number of military men in the area, he would sell the Ruger quickly.  To his surprise, all of the Marines and Troopers that come in ask to see it, then handle it a bit, then pronounce it an odd piece of junk, and then hand it back to him.  As far as I know, it is still sitting there.
 
  It is hard to believe that Ruger screwed up the Scout rifle concept so completely.  In dimension and firepower, it is basically just an Enfield Jungle Carbine in .308 instead of .303.   Of course, the British were smart enought to have the front of the magazine shaped into a smooth angle, so that it wouldn't snag on anything.  Not Ruger.
 
   Like the Steyr Scout Rifle, these won't be made for long.  They will end up being an odd collector's piece.  Dont' waste your money.
 
   Twenty five years from now, the spare magazines will be as rare as the rifles.  So, if you want to make some money, just buy a stack of spare mags and put them in your gun locker.
 
Regards,
Mannyrock

[SHOOTALL]

A forward mounted scope is ok if you reload from stripper clips . If you pratice shooting one it does offer some fast target aqusition but if you pratice with a scope in the normal mounting position it also works well. Also in the standard mounting position blance is somewhat maintained. The idea of also having iron sights is good and can be had on a conventional set up. The short rifle is loud and whippy to me. I had a mod 7 and it was to light and short for me to shoot well in the field . The Ruger has a plastic trigger guard , yuck ! on a rifle that is to be a survival rifle ? Also detachable mags seem like a bad idea as they could be lost in the dark never to be found. A good bolt gun and revolver seem like the lead pipe cinch for survival , little to fall off or out 

[Frank46]

I've got to agree with Mannyrock. The ruger is a solution to a non existent problem. Would I buy one?. Nope.
The #5 jungle carbine was and still is to my way of thinking a scout rifle. Iron sights, 10 round mag that does not
look like a brick and reasonable accurate and powerful. Sold my jungle carbine to a buddy who just recently passed away. Wonder who has it now?. Frank

[StrawHat]

I built a Scout rifle using a shortened Swedish Mauser.  (Sorry, I do not have photos.)  I put a Burris scope on it and reworked the stock to suit my tastes.  After using it for a year or two, I removed the scope and installed a good set of aperture sights.  I was still able to use the stripper clips to load and target acquisition was as fast if not faster.  The rifle was also a bit handier to carry without the scope. 
 
The Ruger seems a bit heavy and awkward for a field rifle and nothing like how I believe a Scout concept rifle should be built.

[Bart Solo]

I know gun writers turn into mush when they think about Jeff Cooper and his Scout Rifle concept, but I am not sure the bolt action Scout Rifle is a concept whose time has not come and gone.  Tell me what part of the Scout Rifle mission can't be handled as well or better with some modern variant of the AR 15 platform?  You can find them in 308, with high capacity magazines and good optics.  They are rugged and reliable.  They are light and handy.  They can kill at 450 meters and, in 308, can take on nearly any game or dangerous animal.  They have the great advantage of being autoloading so you don't even have to take your eyes off the target if you need a follow up. 
 
Anyway as a lever gun fan I think a 94 in 30/30 or a Marlin in any number of 30 caliber rounds is fully capable of fullfilling the Scout role without an unsightly brick hanging off the bottom.
 
If you are hung up on Ruger, I suspect you could set up one of the Mini 14 308 variants to handle the Scout role just as well as the Ruger Gunsite Scout.  Maybe better.
 

[mannyrock]

 
 
   Well said by everyone.
 
   The only explanation for the Frankenrifle that Ruger is trying to sell is that it was designed by a rudderless Team of folks, each with his own pet likes and dislikes, instead of one man with a clear vision to create a useful rifle.  A classic case of Too many cooks spoil the pot.
 
  I think that a better starting place for a Scout rifle would be to get an 03A3 Springfield, with its great apeture sights, and go from there.  Shorten the barrel, extend the internal magazine to eight or ten shots, convert it to .308 Winchester with a chamber insert, install a short round magazine block kit from Brownells, drop it into a Bell & Carlson pillar bedded stock, lower the bolt handle, keep the stripper clip feed slot, etc. 
 
  The best part is that a person with some general skills could do almost all of the work by himself.
 
Regards, Mannyrock
 
    Yes, the action would be a little sticky, but this is a survival rifle.
 
 

[SHOOTALL]

The M1-A scout rifle is ok 

[pathfinder]

   As I have noted on similar posts, I believe Ruger totally screwed up with their so-called Scout, by putting a stubby 16 inch barrel on it, and creating a 10 round mag that hangs down like a brick.  A Scout is suppose to be a very handy, all purpose rifle, not a brush gun with a brick hanging underneath of it.
 
   Three weeks ago, I was at Dawson's Gun Shop, which is a family owned gun store in Woodbridge, VA, a short distance from the Quantico Marine Base, and Fort Belvoir Army Base.  There was a Ruger Scout sitting in the rack.  I talked to the owner, and he said that it had been sitting there for 6 months.
 
  He thought that due to the large number of military men in the area, he would sell the Ruger quickly.  To his surprise, all of the Marines and Troopers that come in ask to see it, then handle it a bit, then pronounce it an odd piece of junk, and then hand it back to him.  As far as I know, it is still sitting there.
 
  It is hard to believe that Ruger screwed up the Scout rifle concept so completely.  In dimension and firepower, it is basically just an Enfield Jungle Carbine in .308 instead of .303.   Of course, the British were smart enought to have the front of the magazine shaped into a smooth angle, so that it wouldn't snag on anything.  Not Ruger.
 
   Like the Steyr Scout Rifle, these won't be made for long.  They will end up being an odd collector's piece.  Dont' waste your money.
 
   Twenty five years from now, the spare magazines will be as rare as the rifles.  So, if you want to make some money, just buy a stack of spare mags and put them in your gun locker.
 
Regards,
Mannyrock

What was the price on the Ruger?  They are selling like hotcakes here at $750-$850 and nobody can keep em in stock.  Do you have a phone number for that gunshop, I know three guys waiting for Ruger to make more.

I got mine last February.  Fun gun.  I didn't like the 10 round mag (it is actually an 11 round mag) so I bought some five round mags, MUCH better.  There are a number of companies that make the AI magazines but I used the registration discount and bought the Ruger (made by Accurate Mag) magazines.  Ruger just offered the polymer version of the mags, available at two of the big online dealers for under $30 each.  I like them much better.  The 10 round mag is a good bit shorter, the fives are the same and the three rounder fits flush except for the base plate.  These can be loaded from the top with the magazine inserted.

Performance wise I've not found the 16" barrel to be much of an issue.  With faster powers my Scout comes pretty close to matching the velocities of my longer barreled Remingtons and CZ.  Powders with burn rates in the IMR 3031 up to Varget range seem to work best.  Mine seems happiest at or near the published load max. 

It also shoots cast bullets very well both at super and subsonic velocities.   I have two 165 grain loads that are 1 MOA and two cast bullet loads that are sub MOA.  I know two guys using them in Silhouette matches and one of the guys is very competitive with his coming within 2 or 3 of the winners who used rifles and scopes set up for the game.  He has no problems rolling the 500 yard rams.  That isn't to say he couldn't do it with pretty much any rifle as with most shooting sports it's the Indian, not the bow that counts.

In the field it carries almost as well as a levergun.  I like it even better after owning it for 9 months.  308 is so versatile I'm still working up loads.  100 grain on up to 220's all seem to shoot well.

Different strokes for different folks.  No offense meant to anyone who sees it different.  The GSR is a rifle that invokes a lot of folks passion, both for and against.  I've never had a rifle that got more attention at the range...  Seems a lot of folks pedantically adhere to the gospels of Jeff and feel the need to tell me why this rifle doesn't meet them.  I don't think the rifle is perfect, but not because it doesn't align perfectly with Col. Cooper's concept, but personal preference things.  I do like it a lot better than my Remington  700 bdl and my CZ American...

If there is a RH model sitting on the shelves somewhere, please let me know.

[Rock Home Isle]

I have several Lee Enfields. The SMLe's are a fascinating rifle to me. But there is one that I hate to shoot, its more of a wall hanger. That one diaspointing rifle is my Lee Enfield Jungle Carbine. Its a short little gun that just is not a pleasure to shoot at all. I have it only because its an Enfield...I feel sorry for any soldiers that had to lug the Jungle Carbine around during combat in WWII.
 
Ruger's Scout Rifle reminds me a lot of that little wall hanger of mine.

[Singleshotsam]

When they announced the Ruger Scout rifle I fell in love immediatly.  With all the media hype and youtube videos praising the gun how could I not be.  Until I handled one.  It's a hefty piece of kit.  Too hefty to make a nice light scout rifle when fully loaded I think. 
 
All things considered, after much thought and studying I've come to this conclusion.
 
The ideal rifle for a scout rifle is an SKS w/ a forward mounted optic and synthetic stock.  The 7.62x39 has enough punch and the 10 round stripper clip fed magazine, combined w/ fairly accurate semi automatic fire makes for a fast and lethal combination.  Slap on a low powered LER style optic and bingo.  Scout rifle perfection in a reliable and combat accurate package.
 
Col. Jeff Cooper approved?  I highly doubt it.  But then again I think Mr. Cooper got a little too caught up in his idea of a scout rifle and allowed his ideas to get passed over by other technology. 

[Swampman]

A Semi-auto cannot be a Scout Rifle.  I like the new Ruger and would buy one.  I'd find or make a 5 round magazine for it.  It's heavy but all laminated stocks are heavy.  The 18" barrel is almost the perfect length for the .308.

[SHOOTALL]

Better tell Springfield armory , they make alot of them in simi auto.
Another rifle Ruger makes with out the forward rail is the international. It has a full length stock ( helps protect the bbl like the old military rifles). Has iron sights from the factory. has the standard Ruger scope mounting system . I think it is a 20 inch bbl ( very handy) . Worth looking at if a handy , strong and light rifles is what you want.

[Swampman]

The Springfield Armory rifle doesn't meet the definition of a Scout Rifle.

[SHOOTALL]

maybe not your's or the Col. but it does theres . I do agree its way to heavy though. And it flips out its empties a bad thing when someone could detect you by seeing it.

[Rock Home Isle]

There seems to be several definitions as to what is a Scout Rifle...Here is what I found at wikipedia
 
 
 
The Scout Rifle is a class of general-purpose rifles defined and promoted by Jeff Cooper in the early 1980s.
These bolt actioncarbines are typically .308 caliber (7.62mm), less than 1 meter in length, and less than 3 kilograms (6.6 lbs.) in weight, with iron and optical sights and fitted with practical slings (such as Ching slings) for shooting and carrying, and capable of hitting man-sized targets out to 450 meters without scopes. Typically they employ forward-mounted low-power long eye relief scopes or sights to afford easy access to the top of the rifle action for rapid reloading. Steyr, Ruger, Savage, and several other gun makers now manufacture Scout rifles that roughly match Cooper's specifications.
A lifelong student of small arms, and recognized expert in the field, Cooper realized that rifles in the late 20th century differed little from those made one hundred years before, and that advances in metallurgy, optics and plastics could make the rifle a handy, light instrument "that will do a great many things equally well..."
 
Defining Characteristics
·         An unloaded weight, with accessories, of 3 kg (6.6 lbs); with 3.5 kilograms (7.7 lbs) the maximum acceptable.
·         An overall length of 1 meter (39.4 in.) or less.
·         A forward-mounted telescopic sight of low magnification, typically 2-3 diameters. This preserves the shooter's peripheral vision, keeps the ejection port open to allow the use of stripper clips to reload the rifle, and eliminates any chance of the scope striking one's brow during recoil. Cooper has stated that a telescopic sight is not mandatory.
·         Ghost ring auxiliary iron sights: a rear sight consisting of a receiver-mounted large-aperture thin ring, and typically a square post front sight.
·         A "Ching" or "CW" sling. Against common practice, Cooper advocated the use of a sling as a shooting aid. The Ching sling offers the convenience of a carrying strap and the steadiness of a target shooter's sling with the speed of a biathlete's sling. (The CW sling is a simpler version of a Ching sling, consisting of a single strap.)
·         A standard chambering of .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm NATO or 7mm-08 Remington for locales that forbid civilian ownership of cartridges in chamberings adopted by military forces or for its "slightly better ballistics."^[2] As Cooper wrote, "A true Scout comes in .308 or 7mm-08."^[3] The .243 Winchester is an alternative for young, small-framed, or recoil-shy people, but needs a 22" barrel. Cooper also commissioned "Lion Scout," chambered for the .350 Remington Magnum cartridge.
·         Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).
 

[bilmac]

Only reason to have a forward mounted scope is so you can use stripper clips. Our local gun store has a bushel of Savage scout rifles on the shelves. Same thing, no stripper clip guides. I bet they will have them on the shelf a long time before they are all gone.

[Rock Home Isle]

Only reason to have a forward mounted scope is so you can use stripper clips. Our local gun store has a bushel of Savage scout rifles on the shelves. Same thing, no stripper clip guides. I bet they will have them on the shelf a long time before they are all gone.

Yeah...I've seen that as well. 

[woodchukhntr]

Only reason to have a forward mounted scope is so you can use stripper clips. Our local gun store has a bushel of Savage scout rifles on the shelves. Same thing, no stripper clip guides. I bet they will have them on the shelf a long time before they are all gone.

2nd reason:  to be able to easily grasp the rifle at the balance point.

[Dee]

Scout rifle definitions are a dime a dozen. Mr. Cooper had some great ideas thru the years. Remember the Bren10? That was a winner wasn't it. When I was a police ranger instructor, and was training and running a tactical unit, about the only thing I found of Col. Coopers valuable was his mind set training techniques. The rest on weaponry was his opinion, and some of it was good, and some of it sucked in actual situations.
An M4 in my opinion could be a "form" of "scout rifle", just as the little 308 bolt actions Ruger used to make. I had one of those, and it was the most irritating rifle I ever fired. It didn't seem to kick that much, seemed to "jar" the hell out of ya, and the muzzle blast from that 18" barrel was awful.
I've had 7 mini 14s, and kinda liked them all, and 6 Ars my favorite. All of these are a form in my opinion, and the semi-auto in a survival scenario makes more sense anyway. When I was working the Oklahoma-Texas border in the Red River bottoms "ALONE" for marijuana plots back in the 70s and 80s it never occurred to me to carry a bolt action. I've found guys that thought they were pretty sneaky in those bottoms, that ran across somebody else more sneaky. Standin over what was left didn't make me want anything but more 30 round mags. I had in the past carried my Winchester Model 94, and was comfortable, but in a fight I'll take an M4 any day, and I've been in a fight or two. My experience has led to my opinions, but others are different, and that's ok. If I had to fight someone I would hope he was carrying a bolt gun, cause I won't be.

[Rock Home Isle]

Makes me think about the little bolt action that Ruger made years ago chambered for the 7.62 x 39. I've shot that gun many times. Its light, and accurate with reloads...and no (censored word) huge muzzle blast.
 
I could hit targets out to 300 yards fairly efficiently...Perfect scout rifle. (though it didn't have a forward mounted scope)

[Swampman]

If it doesn't meet Jeff Cooper's definition, it isn't a Scout Rifle, it's something else.

[Rock Home Isle]

Its a common occurance in most languages for terms and definistions to Evolve Over Time. I'm actually liking the new ideas being presented to describe what people feel is a Scout Rifle. That M4 idea is actually quite interesting and eye opening.
 
Science uses Latin to describe items for their needs...it's a dead language...doesn't change so much.

[Dee]

I have a life long friend that likes antique hot rods. He has tried to get me interested. I tell him I want somethin with a warranty. He laughs and goes on.
Many think that Jeff Cooper is the end all authority on such things as "Scout rifles". He's actually way late on the concept. Oliver Winchester made the carbine, as did the military in their "jungle carbines". Cooper in many respects was a "johnny come lately" and is nothing more than someone whom tried to "improve" the so called "scout rifle". It had been invented before Cooper's grandfather had been born.
Just as Cooper's "version" was a knock off of the original attempts, so are mine and others. With today's innovations in rifle action design, Jeff was actually "behind the curve". The American Indian (my ancestry) watched the white man try to fight him with the muzzle loader, and then the single shot breech loader. The quickly learned they could shoot several arrows in between the white mans loadings, and weren't all that impressed with gun powder. Ahhhhh, but then the lever action appeared, and Yatahey said: I gotta get one of those.
Many will say that the bolt gun is more durable, and I will say: I have been shooting the same Model 94 Winchester almost 54 years without a hitch.
Flip the sand filled egg timer over about 150 years and offer the M4 to the American Indian, a most practical people, and then get out of the way. It's reliable, it's accurate, it's durable, it has an enormous parts and add on inventory, and especially with soft point ammo, it's deadly.
Compact, light, good range, multiple sighting systems can be mounted TOGETHER. What more could you ask for in a survival-self-defense "Scout Rifle".

[Rock Home Isle]

I was at a lawenforcement training shoot YEARS ago, with one of our local officers. I'm an educator, not lawenforcement. These guys had everything...total cutting edge shooting technology. Among the shooters in the class, there was this ole Sheriff from Backwater Montana using a lever action Winchester 94. He stood out like a sore thumb, and the butt of several conversations that took place before the actual class started. His ole 94 was so old and well worn...it was shiny from the finish being worn off.
 
Then the training and the shooting started. Out to 200 yards...No body...I mean NO BODY could match his shooting. Beware the man that shoots one gun, he probably knows how to use it. 
 
It was poetic.

[Dee]

Rock Home Isle, my Model 94 has stared down many a bad guy, and I'm fine on targets the size of the bottom of a gallon milk jug at 250 yards. But then again, in less than a month I will be shootin this same Winchester 54 years.
Would I still take it to a fight? I have in the past, but I would have to walk slower than I used to. Up until the late 70s, early 80s, the Texas Highway Patrol still carried Model 94 Winchesters in 3030. Their hell on a car body, and I never saw anyone carry a decent hit from one very far either.

[Rock Home Isle]

Rock Home Isle, my Model 94 has stared down many a bad guy, and I'm fine on targets the size of the bottom of a gallon milk jug at 250 yards. But then again, in less than a month I will be shootin this same Winchester 54 years.
Would I still take it to a fight? I have in the past, but I would have to walk slower than I used to. Up until the late 70s, early 80s, the Texas Highway Patrol still carried Model 94 Winchesters in 3030. Their hell on a car body, and I never saw anyone carry a decent hit from one very far either.

Okay...so does this mean that I just pissed you off...or are you agreeing with me? I can't tell. 

[Dee]

Heavens no, I was agreein with ya. My Winchester would be the last gun I'd ever sell. I like my M4, but I love my Winchester.

[Swampman]

Having owned them and shot them with Uncle Sam, I have no use for anything based on the M-16 or any other semi-auto.  I'd rather have a single shot.

[Rock Home Isle]

Heavens no, I was agreein with ya. My Winchester would be the last gun I'd ever sell. I like my M4, but I love my Winchester.

Good to know...
 
My brother has an M4 and our librarian at school has an awesome M4...totally impressive to shoot. I was really torn, and ended up buying an FN FAL...which is awesome to shoot. But Not as manuverable as an M4. I'm currently looking at an M4 (AR-15) in 7.62 x 39 calibre.
 
Don't scream...I have lots of 7.62 and not so much .223... it's a cost efficiency thing.