Scout rifles ?

[Bart Solo]

As to jam-o-matic there are few guns ever built more reliable than the AK.  They just aren't very accurate.  From what I have been reading the special ops guys in Afganistan have been screaming for piston driven M4s to gain the best of both worlds. A lot of companies are building them these days.  Take a look at the Stag Arms model 8.  In a 450 meter caliber a gas piston M4 would make a dandy scout rifle. 

[Swampman]

The Scout should be a boltgun as Col. Cooper originally set forth.  They don't jam.

[Bart Solo]

The Scout should be a boltgun as Col. Cooper originally set forth.  They don't jam.

Everything jams.
 
There is a reason the US government adopted the M-1 in 1937.  They held decided advantages over bolt guns. Those advantages were proven in spades during WWII.  That is why the Springfields were retired.
 
Only a fool would elect to carry a bolt gun into modern combat, and we are talking about a weapon to be carried by a modern military scout.  With the exception of the long range sniping roll (and I am not so sure about that statement) bolt guns hold no advantages over modern semi-auto guns in any modern combat situation. 
 
As for worshipping the day dream of a long dead gun writer, or his "definition," I have no idea why I would want to.  In this world there are missions that have to be accomplished.  I believe you use the best tools available to accomplish each mission.  In this case the mission is that of the modern military scout.

[Swampman]

The Scout rifle isn't for combat.  It's a general purpose rifle.  In any given situation I only need one round per target.  I'm not a spray and pray shooter.

[Bart Solo]

If I remember Cooper's criteria they were for a rifle to be used by a long range scout who might have to hunt for dinner or fight the enemy he is scouting.  Cooper was thinking about what the Special Forces guys are trained to do.  I wonder how many of them would prefer a bolt gun to a semi-auto. 
You might not believe this but modern autos don't have to be used in the pray and spray mode.   In the hands of a skilled rifleman a modern semi-auto is fully capable of very good accuracy.  A skilled rifleman with some self control can limit himself to one shot at a time. 

[Rock Home Isle]

Realize also that Cooper "designed" his scout rifle concept in the 70's and getting an out-of-the-box semi-auto that met his accuracy criteria, at that time, would have been a bit of a pipe dream at best. The bolt action at that time was and still is very accurate an could eaily meet his critieria.
 
Today, an accurate semi-auto that would meet Cooper's accuracy criteria can now be had quite easily.
 
 
Time to expand the definition of the scout rifle to meet the terms and conditions of our modern times. I see no problem with a scout rifle being a semi-auto....I would much prefer an accurate semi-auto, for nothing more than a good solid follow up shot if there are multiple targets that need to be engaged. Compared to an accurate semi-auto, the bolt just doesnt stand a chance.

[Swampman]

It's ok to expand the definition, just call it something else.
 
I shot High Power for quite awhile with my Colt and I consider it unsuitable for a general purpose rifle.  It's ok for combat when you're just shooting cover fire.

[SHOOTALL]

The Scout should be a boltgun as Col. Cooper originally set forth.  They don't jam.

Everything jams.
 
There is a reason the US government adopted the M-1 in 1937.  They held decided advantages over bolt guns. Those advantages were proven in spades during WWII.  That is why the Springfields were retired.
 
Only a fool would elect to carry a bolt gun into modern combat, and we are talking about a weapon to be carried by a modern military scout.  With the exception of the long range sniping roll (and I am not so sure about that statement) bolt guns hold no advantages over modern semi-auto guns in any modern combat situation. 
 
As for worshipping the day dream of a long dead gun writer, or his "definition," I have no idea why I would want to.  In this world there are missions that have to be accomplished.  I believe you use the best tools available to accomplish each mission.  In this case the mission is that of the modern military scout.

good post ! as for snipers it appears there is a trend to arm them with auto loading rifles under way.
Like I noted earlier times have changed since the COL. came up with his idea.

[SHOOTALL]

The Scout should be a boltgun as Col. Cooper originally set forth.  They don't jam.

maybe we should go back to front stuffers ? 
Bolt guns do jam and are at the ablity of the shooter as to how well they work. A man with a arm out of service from injury can still account for himself with an auto loader

[gstewart44]

The Scout should be a boltgun as Col. Cooper originally set forth.  They don't jam.

maybe we should go back to front stuffers ? 
Bolt guns do jam and are at the ablity of the shooter as to how well they work. A man with a arm out of service from injury can still account for himself with an auto loader

Excellent point SA...

[SHOOTALL]

The Scout rifle isn't for combat.  It's a general purpose rifle.  In any given situation I only need one round per target.  I'm not a spray and pray shooter.

I agree I only need one round per target ( at least that is what I pray) What I don't know is how many targets will require a shot and how fast they will be comming at me    So if the choice for a general purpose weapon is bolt gun with five shots or an auto with up to 30 shots ( note less capacity mags can be used) I opt for the auto. One of the uses the Col eluded to was hunting. Now that the AR is aval. in hunting chamberings it seems they would make a good choice. I enjoy my 6.8 alot and consider it a good general purpose rifle. You can mount a forward optic on it.

[bilmac]

What reason is there for mounting the scope forward if you don't need access to clip guides? There are vague claims that forward mtd scopes are faster, are there any tests that show that. I can't help looking at them and thinking that they would be slower to use.

[SHOOTALL]

I have shot a limited time with them . What I noticed is you seem to see more around the optic . What it seems is with a conventional mount your off side eye even if open is blocked by the scope. with it forward your off side eye sees more on the opposite side. This could be a good thing . As for speed It would seem the one you pratice with would be the fastest. I did not care for it but some I shoot with love them.

[Rock Home Isle]

New Name: Scout Rifle 2011
 
But for simplicity, we'll abreviate it Scout Rifle.

[SHOOTALL]

So I guess a corvette isn't a corvette unless its a 1953 ? The concept changed 

[qwikrick]

Maybe for argument sake we can modify the meaning of a scout rifle.
 
something like modern scout & a traditional scout,  what do ya think ?

[SHOOTALL]

out of respect for swampman and his desire to stick with the definition set forth by the Col.  maybe  Scout Rifle improved 

[gstewart44]

out of respect for swampman and his desire to stick with the definition set forth by the Col.  maybe  Scout Rifle improved 

[Rock Home Isle]

So I guess a corvette isn't a corvette unless its a 1953 ? The concept changed 

And can you believe it...It changed every (censored word) YEAR...

[Swampman]

Maybe for argument sake we can modify the meaning of a scout rifle.
 
something like modern scout & a traditional scout,  what do ya think ?

You can do whatever you wish but it won't make a semi-auto a Scout Rifle.

[Spanky]

Swampy is right on the money about semi's not filling the role of scout rifle. Some of you guys don't want to accept that but it's true. A scout rifle should be a go anywhere, do anything, work every time rifle. If you can show me a semi auto that never... and I mean never jams or otherwise fails to function and meets Coopers defintion of a scout you might change my mind. Until then....
 
 
 
Spanky

[SHOOTALL]

By the same token is there a model of bolt gun that has never failed ? When the Col. made up his definition of the scout rifle there were few self loaders that were reliable today with good maintance there are many. It is true in most cases a bold gun requires less maintance but then if you choose a self loader you accept the weight and maintance as the package. The question then becomes can an auto loader fill the scout rifle role and the ansewer is yes. It can hunt, protect and shoot targets. In fact it will in most cases do the job better as it will in most if not all have less felt recoil . Be faster to get off a second, third or more follow up shots. Back when the M-1 was adopted many marines shunded it over the 03 for the same faults mentioned here. When they saw its fire power in combat they accepted it fully and in some cases stole army M-1s .
History repetes 

[Singleshotsam]

To answer the question about the SKS scout mount that was asked...

http://scoutscopes.com/sks-scope-mounts/sks-scope-mount-black-anodized-6795/
 
As far as what i've been reading about scout rifles since I posted:

A scout rifle is a scout rifle only if your a "scout".  An Elephant rifle is only an Elephant rifle if you've killed an Elephant with one.  A sniper rifle is only a sniper rifle if your a sniper.  Col. Cooper had some excellent teachings about the combat mindset.  I will not deny that he was wise about some things.  His hangups on his "beloved" scout rifle were not one of his "great" ideas. 

The steyr Scout he eventually endorsed runs well over $1400.00.  That is way beyond the budget of the person who needs a true general purpose rifle.  My precision Remington 700 (which can shoots one hole groups at 300 yards) cost less than that!
 
Ruger and Gunsite, both companies that endorsed Coopers beliefs and ideas produced a scout rifle that still doesn't meet Col. Coopers rather ignorant standards about a gun that solves a non-existant problem.  The price on the Ruger Gunsite scout is still very high for what it is and they said that had to use a laminate stock on it just to keep the price sane. 

When you embrace the idea of a "Scout" rifle as a general idea or concept your on the right track.  To me the best rifle that fits the bill these days for a "General Purpose Hunting/Self Defence/Designated Marksman Rifle is a Recce Style AR15.  Lightwieght, 1-4x opitc, detachable mag, and better yet, the ability to mount a light (A key factor on ANY home defense tool) and Accurate out to 500 yards if you want to spend the same amount of money as the Steyr scout and come out ahead on firepower.

The best gun for a working man on a budget for a "General Purpose" Rifle to me is still an SKS w/ a forward mounted optic, synthetic stock and improved iron sights.  Good firepower.  Reasonably accurate.  Can kill a deer or man.  Can be reloaded rapidly ect...

[Bart Solo]

Several of the posters in this thread are asking the right question.  What is the mission of a scout rifle?  Once we have defined the mission we can worry about the tool to fill the mission.

[Singleshotsam]

The mission of the "Scout Rifle" is one born by guys drinking coffee in a gun shop or talking on internet forums.  "If you could only have one gun, what would it be?
 
That's where my comment about solving a nonexistant problem comes in.  We all own more than one gun.  We have guns for self defense.  We have guns for hunting deer.  We have guns for hunting Waterfowl.  Others yet for target shooting and punching paper... and so on.

I don't want to carry a scout rifle to the shopping mall for self defense when a concealable pistol suits the bill just fine.  I don't want to try and kill a duck with a .308.  I'd rather not shoot an inaccurate gun that preforms poorly at long range when I have a precision .308 sitting in my gun case.  And I wouldn't want a scout rifle when the boogie man is trying to kick my front door in and I have to make my way through a tight spaced house.  I'll take a AR15 carbine for that job please.
 
Let me ask this question to you guys.  "If you want to build a house, but can only have one tool, what would it be?"  It's an insane question.  Sure you can probably get the job done w/ that leatherman or swiss army knife but why would you when you have a pickup truck full of tools that will get the job done better in a much much much shorter amount of time.

[spruce]

Gentlemen,
I've been following this thread with some interest and hoping to gain some useful information regarding ideas on putting together a carbine with a forward mounted scope and it seems that was the OP's intent for posting.  Sadly, it has more or less degenerated into an argument about semantics.
 
In my view there is Col. Cooper's Scout Rifle and there is scout rifle.  The former is his personal definition of what constitutes a scout rifle and the latter is a generic term describing a "type" of firearm.  Sort of like Kleenex and kleenex - when your nose is running you don't ask for a "facial tissue" you ask for a kleenex, regardless of what brand is on the box!
 
I give Cooper credit for coining the term, but not for inventing the concept.  Those of you who are from the dinosaur age can probably recall that people were mounting Bushnell Phantom handgun scopes on their model 94's several years before Col. Cooper started writing about his version of a scout rifle and at least one IER scope (Leupold?) was available prior to the Col. mounting it on his Scout Rifle.
Besides all that, the OP asked for information about putting together a scout TYPE rifle (emphasis mine) not an exact copy of the Colonel's personal rifle!
 
Just my view on the subject, take it for what it's worth - it was free!

[Singleshotsam]

Well said spruce!

[ScoutMan]

A forward mounted scope does not necessarily a scout rifle make.
 
Here for a full discussion:  http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php?topic=1298.0

[Rock Home Isle]

Several of the posters in this thread are asking the right question.  What is the mission of a scout rifle?  Once we have defined the mission we can worry about the tool to fill the mission.

That is the most logical post that I have seen on the second page of this thread.
 
What are the charactoristics that we want in our modern/updated version of a scout rifle.
 
I for one would want to maintain accuracy, relaibility and manuverability as components of the firearm. 1 MOA or less would be reasonable, with what can be done with modern firearms and ammunition.

[Rock Home Isle]

Well said spruce!

I'll second that as well.