Author Topic: Reloading questions for CCW  (Read 2134 times)

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Offline flatlander

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Reloading questions for CCW
« on: November 26, 2011, 12:39:11 PM »
Do any of you reload for your concealed carry guns? I'm thinking about picking up a 380 pocket gun for the summer, and would like to reload for it to make it affordable to shoot. I've heard that reloads in a defense gun can get into legal issues if some lawyer decides to portray you as a monster loading rounds for the maximum damage. Any truth to that, or is it paranoid thinking?

I would still like to reload at least for shooting at the range in any case. Also, anyone shooting cast bullets out of a P3AT, LCP or TCP that can report if they shoot OK or if jacketed bullets are required.

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2011, 01:45:09 PM »
I don't reload but I do know that one thing you'd have to be careful about is reloading too hot. Most handguns, such as those you mentioned, are ok with +P loads now and then but they won't handle a steady diet of them. Also, I'd think cast bullets, without jackets, would lead up the lands in your rifleling pretty quick thus reducing acuracy conciderably. I'd bet you run into feeding issues too.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2011, 02:32:32 AM »
I shoot reloads at the range but prefer factory for carry. It has nothing to do with a legal thought. I sometimes carry reloads.
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Offline reliquary

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2011, 02:35:13 AM »
I only reload for the larger calibers now, and have only had very dud rounds, that I can recall, in 50+ years of reloading.  I have had some smear up the rifling when they got too fast for the alloy I was using.
 
Having said that, I only carry commercially-loaded rounds in my carry piece.  Maybe I subconsciously trust them better than my own?  But I do carry my cast reloads in my pig pistol...that may not make any sense, but there it is.

Offline StrawHat

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2011, 02:44:52 AM »
I reload cast bullets for my revolvers and I do carry them in the piece.  I do NOT load them hot, just to the same level as factory or a bit lighter.  I trust my ammunition as much as I trust factory.  Mine is cheaper so it gets the nod.  Another reason to reload is the choice of projectiles is much greater than with factory stuff.  One of my favorite bullets for any caliber is the full WC bullet.  Try finding it in anything other than a 38 Special from the factory.
 
Cast bullets have been used since cased ammunition has been around so the kinks have been worked out of it.  If you are getting leading at 380 or 38 Special velocities you are doing things wrong.  There are a couple of fora dedicated to using cast bullets.  Some of the fellows are loading to 2000 fps and not leading rifle barrels, with softer lead.  Handgun velocities are much easier to get accurate non leading loads to work. 
 
Cast bullets are great for hunting and target work.  Don't see why they won't work for social situations also.
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Offline flatlander

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2011, 05:33:42 AM »
I was mostly considering cast for the economy rather than getting the rounds as hot as possible. I can reload cast bullets for approximately $5.25/50 and JHPs for under $10/50. Dies and brass would be paid for in 200 rounds. Just didn't want to see any additional legal issues if I had to use my concealed carry weapon.

Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2011, 06:16:35 AM »
Do any of you reload for your concealed carry guns? I'm thinking about picking up a 380 pocket gun for the summer, and would like to reload for it to make it affordable to shoot. I've heard that reloads in a defense gun can get into legal issues if some lawyer decides to portray you as a monster loading rounds for the maximum damage. Any truth to that, or is it paranoid thinking?

I would still like to reload at least for shooting at the range in any case. Also, anyone shooting cast bullets out of a P3AT, LCP or TCP that can report if they shoot OK or if jacketed bullets are required.

Reloads are fine for practise with your firearm...don't use reloads in your firearm while you carry. Use only factory ammunition...if you ever have to defend yourself with your firearm, you will most likely be sued and the attoruney of the plaintif will accuse you of all types of things if you use reloaded ammunition.
 
If you doubt me...talk to your local law enforcement, defensive pistol instructors or someone who has had to defend themselves with thei gun. I use factory ammo that is ballistically similar to my reloads...but when I carry I always load with factory ammo.
“Lost?? Hmmm... been fearsome confused for a month or two, but I ain't never been lost!”
Henry Frap the "Mountain Men"

“Ain't this somethin'? I told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Mother Gue said to me; ‘Make your life go here, son. Here's where the people is. Them mountains is for Indians and wild men.’  "Mother Gue", I says "the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world," and by God, I was right. Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline.”
Del Gue in "Jeremiah Johnson"

Offline TOGO

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2011, 12:51:58 PM »
I also use my reloads with quality hollow points in my CCW guns. Not 380, only because I don't reload for it. I do 9x18, 9x19, 38 /357, 40, 45 acp. I also do my 41 mags which has killed 2 russian boar and 4 deer. Reliquary touched on something that makes sense to me, if I can trust rounds made for wild boar hunting then I shouldn't have any doubt in my reloading for defense against others.

Offline TOGO

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2011, 01:18:27 PM »
I think the getting sued thing for using a reloaded bullet is a huge myth that has been inbedded in peoples brains over viewing gun forums.  I don't sit around making evil bullets and then inject them with dragons blood, these are some of the same bullets used in factory loaded ammunition, a bullet is a bullet weather it has your powder or hornady's powder in it. If you are a victim of a crime and you choose to defend yourself and later on you get sued by the person you shot or the family of that person then.... well your going to get sued weather you made the round or not, this is America and it happens all the time.

Offline Lonegun1894

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2011, 10:20:23 PM »
I for one have had more malfunctions with factory ammo than I ever had with my handloads.  On the job, I carried factory or issued ammo, but in my off time, I just carried whatever I had enough of and trusted, which is my handloads with bullets I cast myself the majority of the time.  I have heard all kinds of hypothetical horror stories about what will happen if i get into an incident, but have yet to see any reliable history showing  that this may actually happen.  With the way our legal system is getting with many people being law-suit-happy, I expect to be sued in a defensive incident but I believe one more or less minor point for the lawyers to argue should'nt make or break me as long as my actions are justified.  As with anything we read online, just my two cents, but we all have to make our decisions and then answer for them if they are incorrect, so do as you see fit, but now you know what I do.  If I go to work for a department that requires me to carry a specific kind of ammo and issues it, then I will do so, but my last departments policy can be summed up as "have a loaded gun".

Offline Mikey

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2011, 01:25:48 AM »
Flatlander:  I wouldn't bother talking to any leo about using handloaded ammo in a carry gun for defensive purposes as few will actually know the answer and most will probably state department policy if they know if there is one, and they may all give you the same answer - it's either illegal or you will be found guilty. 
 
Many shooting schools apparently say the same thing, usually upon advice by their lawyers who may or may not have ever either defended or prosecuted such a case, or possibly by some of those who may have never had any success with reloads.  And also please do not forget that shooting schools can teach you how to shoot or defend yourself their way, which may or may not have anything to do with how you might actually have to perform if you are actually involved in a defensive shooting.  I think that if I were to attend a school it would be one of the Clint Smith schools as he sometimes teaches defensive shooting with single action revolvers and about the onliest way I know of today to get decent ammo for those old style revolvers is to either purchase the 'one shot stoppers' or load your own.
 
Actually and to the best of my knowledge, there are no cases that we have been able to find on record about a self defense shooting on the streets where reloaded ammo came into question.  There was one issue in new joisey about a suicidal woman who made the effort with a revolver loaded with her husband's handloaded target rounds and her husband was charged with her death as the local da didn't quite see it as a suicide (on accounta he had his hand on the gun when it went off - oops...) but there have not been other cases that have been borne out here. 
 
I have a long time friend who thinks that Gunsite is the most bestest place in the whole world to learn how to shoot but because they recommend factory ammo in your carry gun to avoid personal liability he would rather take the chance of a factory load misfiring than use any of the hundreds of thousands of his personal reloads that have functioned perfectly over the past 4 decades.  Go figure, paranoia runs deep.
 
However, my own attorney, a city prosecutor and former asst da simply sez:  if your loads don't do anything more than any factory loads there is no issue.  For example:  if your personal cast 45 acp handload at 850'/sec shoots through a bad guy, it has performed no differently than any factory defensive load or especially any of those using expanding bullets travelling at 900'/sec or faster, like the corbon stuff.  What I fail to understand is why some da doesn't take defensive shooters to task for using stuff like that; I mean, does the bullet just have to go through as a mil-spec ball load would and just kill the guy, or does it have to make a explosive mess in the process - what I also fail to understand is that if there are all sorts of greasy attorneys out there just waiting to jump on some poor joe who had to defend himself (and you will notice that there are never any women charged for using handloads - anyone ever heard of that? ??? ) and used handloads, why aren't the same attorneys jumping all over defensive shooters who use the 'killya with one shot' after market loads; I mean, aren't those guys also the ones who the prosecuting attorneys say they 'cowboy up' to walk the streets lookin' for a fight?  Why else would they carry such stuff. 
 
Since my lawyer is the one who has to defend me I will go with what he says and recommends.  And flatlander, if you are going to carry the 380, your reloads should be round nose or flat nose ball slugs at factory velocities.  The 380 is one of those calibers that performs best as it is - if you hollowpoint or soft nose the round your performance may suffer -  and this isn't just my opinion, recent articles on 380 loadings simply support what I have said for years.  imo
 

Offline rockbilly

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2011, 09:10:28 AM »
An old fishing partner, former district attorney, current practicing lawyer and good friend advised me several times that it would be much easier to defend someone who used factory ammo over reloads.  His advice is, shoot the same ammo brand that the local police shoot; for example if they are using Winchester Lawman, and then pick that in the caliber to fit your gun. His thought is no prosecuting lawyer can convince a jury you are using some exotic load that may have caused death or damage beyond what a factory load would. Generally, you are in a better position if you can prove you only shoot what the LEO in the area does..  Him having worked as both a prosecutor and defense attorney I am confident in his advice.

Shoot the reloads for practice but keep in mind; it is “cheap insurance” to purchase a box of factory loads for personal defense purposes. You may appreciate this advice if ever confronted by a judge and jury.
 

Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2011, 11:32:43 AM »
An old fishing partner, former district attorney, current practicing lawyer and good friend advised me several times that it would be much easier to defend someone who used factory ammo over reloads.  His advice is, shoot the same ammo brand that the local police shoot; for example if they are using Winchester Lawman, and then pick that in the caliber to fit your gun. His thought is no prosecuting lawyer can convince a jury you are using some exotic load that may have caused death or damage beyond what a factory load would. Generally, you are in a better position if you can prove you only shoot what the LEO in the area does..  Him having worked as both a prosecutor and defense attorney I am confident in his advice.

Shoot the reloads for practice but keep in mind; it is “cheap insurance” to purchase a box of factory loads for personal defense purposes. You may appreciate this advice if ever confronted by a judge and jury.

Yes...absolutely YES.
 
This is the best responce yet. Great, awesome advice.  8)
“Lost?? Hmmm... been fearsome confused for a month or two, but I ain't never been lost!”
Henry Frap the "Mountain Men"

“Ain't this somethin'? I told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Mother Gue said to me; ‘Make your life go here, son. Here's where the people is. Them mountains is for Indians and wild men.’  "Mother Gue", I says "the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world," and by God, I was right. Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline.”
Del Gue in "Jeremiah Johnson"

Offline Old Syko

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2011, 03:56:30 PM »
Mikey has offered the ONLY voice of reason here.  Especially this part. " Actually and to the best of my knowledge, there are no cases that we have been able to find on record about a self defense shooting on the streets where reloaded ammo came into question."   and this " I wouldn't bother talking to any leo about using handloaded ammo in a carry gun for defensive purposes as few will actually know the answer"  Fact of the matter is simply that there is NO case law supporting claims of reloads being questioned in a self defense situation.  If you ever find yourself in a shooting situation your only concern for ammo is that it's reliable and capable of accomplishing the goal before it. 

Even with all that's been said on the subject I doubt even the lowest of the low lawyer could prove you were over gunned with a 380 no matter what ammo you had in it.  ;D 

Offline kevinsmith5

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Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2011, 04:27:35 PM »
If anyone knows of a case where someone had their use if reloads in self defense brought into question in court I'd love to see a link to it. Otherwise I think this conversation is over.
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline flatlander

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2011, 05:16:59 AM »
Thanks for the interesting discussion! Good points made by everyone.

I think I will probably load my 380 in FMJ RNs, and carry it in the warm months with factory loads. I have a 9 that I'll carry in cooler weather.

Offline rockbilly

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2011, 06:17:22 AM »
Out of curiosity I contacted my friend this morning and again asked about using reloads for self protection, his comment was, “I would not hesitate to use them if my life were in danger and no other ammo was available, however as daily carry ammo I would only carry factory loads.”  I also asked about court cases, he said, “I know of none, but my experience as a prosecuting attorney has convinced me that before using a firearm every caution should be taken to ensure that you don’t get caught up in the court room hype and end up in jail for defending yourself, its just to simple to eliminate these possibilities by sticking to factory ammo.”

This is the take of Massad Ayoob on the subject from a murder trial.

"When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff" or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target. Stippling or powder residue, and its amount, would relate to the distance between the barrel of the firearm and the victim or target. Lack of powder residue would reflect a distant shot as opposed to the presence of powder residue which would reflect or prove a close shot," explains Attorney Lanza, who adds, "With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load."

When I asked Elizabeth Smith about the handload crippling Danny's defense, she replied, "You're certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, 'It couldn't have happened the way he said it did.'"

For several years, certain "Net Ninjas" have been spreading the false belief that no one has ever gotten in trouble in court from using handloads. Now you know better. The records of the N.J. v. Daniel N. Bias trials are archived at the Superior Court of New Jersey, Warren County, 313 Second Street, P.O. Box 900, Belvedere, NJ 97823. Those wishing to follow his appellate process can begin with the Atlantic Reporter at 142 NJ 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table). The only reason handloads have not been a factor in more cases is that most people who go in harm's way are already smart enough not to use them for defense

Offline kevinsmith5

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Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2011, 06:35:11 AM »
That case was already brought up in this thread. Not exactly a poster child for "blame the reloads" in a self defense situation. He says she shot herself as he was trying to pull the gun away from her head. The prosecutors say he shot her from a couple feet away. How does this relate to the conversation about SELF DEFENSE? Answer- it doesn't.
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline kevinsmith5

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Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2011, 06:54:01 AM »
In point of fact, IF he was les of a sloppy reloaded and hadn't kept a mix of different unlabeled loads loaded in the same firearm whether the cartridges in question were reloads or not would never have came up. They could have simply tested a single load. And given the fact that one of the science classes I teach is a forensic science class I'm not to hesitant in saying that no, it could not have happened the way he said it did.
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2011, 11:48:13 AM »
rockbilly,
 
Stellar post by referencing Massad Ayoob. I had three books that I was going to quote...you beat me to it. Very nice.  8)
 
There are some great books on Concealed Carry and Self Defence Firearms...And I cannot think of one that reccomends using reloads while carrying a concealed weapon, they all advise against it. I'll take the advice and listen to the experts.  8)
 
It is such a minimal cost to load your self defence firearm with a box of factory ammo while carrying...shoot all you want with reloads, its great practise and it saves money. But do yourself and your family a service, when you carry a weapon for self defence, load it with factory ammo. The repercussions of not taking this simple logical advice can be devastating.
“Lost?? Hmmm... been fearsome confused for a month or two, but I ain't never been lost!”
Henry Frap the "Mountain Men"

“Ain't this somethin'? I told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Mother Gue said to me; ‘Make your life go here, son. Here's where the people is. Them mountains is for Indians and wild men.’  "Mother Gue", I says "the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world," and by God, I was right. Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline.”
Del Gue in "Jeremiah Johnson"

Offline jimster

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2011, 01:57:18 PM »
There hasn't been any case in my state where it would have been leagal to defend yourself...except..you loaded your own ammo.  Never happened here, but I don't know about other states or laws.  You would have to have a separate law on the books for handloads, no such deal here. Truth is I carry factory ammo in my .38 special, but I have handguns where I don't own any factory loads, and those are with me sometimes.  I don't worry much about it, it's either self defense or it's not, it's not self defense "except your ammo"....I can defend myself with a Buick if it's all I have handy and the situation calls for it.  Basically in this state if you go to court at all for self defense, there is something wrong to begin with, if the prosecuter in this area says self defense and closes it, it's over Nobody goes to court.  End of story, and the law here protects us from Civil court as well.  Sometimes I have a single action with me, not real often for ccw, but sometimes, and a lot of times there is one in my van or close by, and almost all the time there is one at home. I don't own factory ammo for those.  I won't go by factory ammo for them just to have them with me either, but that's just me.  When the very first case in Michigan happens where "well, it would have been self defense, except he used Keith bullets in his Ruger"...I'll reconsider.  I think this is a topic that has been overblown and full of myths, and as knowledgeable as Ayoob is on many things, he isn't always spot on, and he should take the laws of each state into consideration.  If it's self defense and obvious, you won't be in court.  At least in this state in this area.  I can't say this about other states...if you have a rough time with self defense in some places...by factory ammo I guess.  But if your going to court...it probably wasn't the ammo you were using.

 

Offline hillbill

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2011, 02:13:15 PM »
it is just the assumption with the jury of not your peers, that since yu reload yu are a evil ammo reloader and explosive maker.yu use dum dum bullets and maybe put poison in them.this is where this comes from, the uneducated public dont like reloading

Offline jimster

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2011, 02:40:33 PM »
Quote
it is just the assumption with the jury of not your peers, that since yu reload yu are a evil ammo reloader and explosive maker.yu use dum dum bullets and maybe put poison in them.this is where this comes from, the uneducated public dont like reloading
My question is how did you wind up in front of a jury in the first place?  If it's true self defense and your in front of a jury, you already had big problems where you live before you chose your ammo.  We have uneducated public here too...but the prosecutor follows the law here, all prosecutors are not the same,  you very well could wind up in front of a jury if you can't get passed him.  Wherever you live you might want to look up the shootings in your area and see how your prosecutor handled them.  It's a good thing to do.  He is the guy you need to stay out of court.  Then if you live in a place where someone can take you to civil court....you got a whole new set of problems.  So yes...I understand the need for factory ammo in some places, but not this one, at least so far.

Offline Old Syko

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2011, 02:44:51 PM »
Found out recently our local prosecutor carries handloads in his full time carry piece.  8)  Good luck to those who are already running scared. ???

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2011, 03:25:20 PM »
The logic on this topic never fails to puzzle me. If you must defend yourself by shooting someone then common sense states you use a firearm, caliber, and bullet that ends the threat as quickly as possible so why should it matter if handloaded or factory? If you kill the guy, dead is dead is it not? Shoot just to wound? Wounded criminals can still shoot, or fight, back. But now more desperately so! Not my idea of efectively defending oneself! Limiting your cartridge used, other than outlawed cartridges, is like telling you it's ok to go swimming but don't you dare get wet! In this case I guess it's ok to shoot someone in defense of your life, even kill them if necesary, but you can only use a cartridge that minimaly gets the job done? REALLY?  ??? WHY? So your handload is determined to be a "Mankiller" cartridge, well what's the gun that fires it a pacifier? Maybe they should only sell Government aproved cartridges for self defense and we be required to use them or nothing?  ::) In short, if it's accepted that you are legaly carrying a firearm for defense, why question the bullets in it?

Offline rockbilly

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2011, 04:00:10 PM »
Most are looking at this as a possible criminal case defense, not about a civil case where some liberal judge or jury is making the decision on restitution for taking Ms. Jones’ husband, son or whatever?  Using a firearm is self defense presents a two edged sword, you “might” be charged in a criminal court if there are questions about the shooting, then again, you “might “ go before a civil court and then you “might” go before both. 

Here in Texas I worry less about the criminal charge that I do about a civil case, as for me. I will take the advice of my attorney friend, a judgment call but to me the wise way to go, I see it as a sensible decision each person will have to make for themselves.   

Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2011, 12:29:43 AM »
The ONLY actual case anyone has brought up in this thread as support of "the idiot used reloads in self defense" is one in which slef defense was neither claimed nor an issue. And neither was "the factory ammo wasn't deadly enough for you so you had to load your own". All these claims of "the public hates EVIL reloaders" are not supported by any evidence, polls, or court cases I have seen. If I shoot a man with my 40 S&W reloads and a lawyer attempts to sue me for using especially deadly ammo I can show the exact load and lot I used as well as point out I was not using a 44 Magnum, .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, or .357 Sig. And I have YET to see anyone siting a case where anyone WAS sued for using reloads. This really is all hysteria. My county's five time elected sheriff is a reloader. If you aren't loading explosive rounds your reloads are fine to carry for CCW and self defense.
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline Old Syko

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2011, 12:32:00 AM »
Rockbilly, as Jimster has already pointed out, we don't all live in states with such fouled up laws on the books.  If you are in the right by defending yourself here, there can be no civil case.  Sounds like you need to work on getting some of the illogical laws off the books and helping Texas to become a free state. 

Offline jimster

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2011, 07:57:06 AM »
I was reading where Texas castle doctrine protects against civil problems if self defense is needed, same as Michigan.
Texas Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground Bill
Quote
SECTION 4. Section 83.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, is amended to read
as follows:

Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY. A defendant who uses force or
deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9 Penal Code, is immune from civil
liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of
force or deadly force, as applicable.
Quote
SECTION 6. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.
Did Texas amend this since 2007??  If not...maybe the lawyer needs a lesson.  If he doesn't know this, he should. 
 
 

Offline rockbilly

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Re: Reloading questions for CCW
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2011, 04:53:24 PM »
Jimster, I agree fully with your post on the Texas penal code, but it refers ONLY to a possible liability case from the alleged bad guy or his family.  The law only covers what is black and white in that area, where its shaded is the “what if."  For instance,  you hit an innocent bystander or have a shoot through and hit someone.  There are so many gray areas in a shooting incident that it is in everyone’s best interest to eliminate any item of doubt that “might” lead to a situation where one has to defend themselves in a court of law.

I worked very close with the TSRA in securing support for the Texas Concealed Carry law and getting it passed, the laws on the book are sufficient for a clear concise case of self defense, however, its that shaded area that concerns me and makes me take my attorneys advice and lean towards carrying only factory loads.  I think eventually we will see a case and can speak (think) more clearly on the subject, until then let each man be a judge for himself and be responsible for his choice.