Check Your Sources

[Blackhawker]

CW and Fastchicken,
Thank you both for your points of view on detonation/non-detonation.  It's good that we discuss these things here; that's what a forum like this is for.  It makes me wonder if someone should post a thread on "Detonation theory".    Or perhaps research the theory.  I'm sure someone, somewhere has done some sort of research on this. 
 
I can recall back in the late 80's when I first started to reload the 45 Colt.  I had a subscription to "Guns and Ammo" at the time and one month was an issue with a horrifying article on blown up guns.  I wish I could find that issue today.  Nonetheless, this is where I was first exposed to the detonation theory and as I recall from the article, it was predominantly large case volume ammo that was most subject to this condition....or at least the theory.  I was horrified by the photos of guns bent, twisted, and torn apart and hoped I'd never experience this in my lifetime.  Since that time, I've held to the detonation theory and always (like CW has stated) tried to load with powders that fill more than half to three quarters the case volume.  This keeps me clear from the possibilities of detonation (if this truly does happen) AND it ensures me that if I accidentally double charge a case, it'll overflow and be absolutely obvious that I've made a mistake with a load, hence preventing any type of accident like this. 
 
It is unfortunate that I haven't had the time to describe or convey this point to Thane prior to this occurrence....be it double charge or detonation...as he began loading the .44 mag on his own.  I believe it was only after this occurrence that I had described the detonation theory to him and thought at the time that this is what has occurred to his firearm.  Now that I've had time to look over load data, I'm 50-50 on detonation or double charge.  As I said before, we'll never know.  Thankfully Thane wasn't hurt and he never thought twice about quitting shooting/loading as I have done.  Perhaps it's an age thing???
 
As a point of respect for the powers at hand here; Thane and I were in shock at how a barrel (thick and heavy steel) could move, tear, and bend as it did yet even the smallest part of the fragments attached were absolutely unbendable by us, no matter how hard we pressed or squeezed on them.  This is an unbelievable amount of force, energy, and pressure that caused his gun to blow.  If any large part would have let go from the mass, it would have easily gone through our bodies and easily killed one of us.  This is part of the reason why I have been literally shaken to the bone about shooting and reloading.  No one here ever wants to experience this, believe me! 
 
PLEASE!!!!!  Use caution when loading and shooting!  And PLEASE!!....if you ever offer advice to a loader (especially a new loader), be responsible and work with them as much as possible.  Don't just throw out a load to them as the guy in the gun store did with Thane. 
 
BE SAFE!  THINK WHEN YOU ARE LOADING AND SHOOTING!  STAY ALIVE!

[SHOOTALL]

So some still believe that major brand reloading manuals will publish the same data for several printings that could blow up a gun . They must surely know abour detionation or have deep pockets

[Blackhawker]

Actually, I don't believe that a published charge can detonate but what I suspect as possible is that some published loads may be just on the edge of such.  With that, it leaves the loader no margin of safety if a balance comes out of calibration or a charge is accidentally undercharged.  (Again, if the detonation theory holds true, which I believe does have some merit)  For example, in the Lyman manual, the charge in question for Titegroup is 9 to 10 grains.  I would not chose this powder as there is only a 1 grain span of charge from min to max load.  Rather, I'd choose a load where there might be a two or more grain difference from min to max, hence leaving some room for unexpected/accidental error. 

Some people think that Thane may have double charged.  Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.  What if he under charged an already light load??  Could that have been enough to detonate?  While the published data may not detonate, perhaps a slightly undercharged load might....again, if one believes in the detonation theory. 
That's just the way I tend to think of things when I load.  I don't like to push limits on either end (min or max) with standard loads.

So some still believe that major brand reloading manuals will publish the same data for several printings that could blow up a gun . They must surely know abour detionation or have deep pockets

[Old Syko]

The problem I see with this thread is in the fact that the OP is passing blame on to HIS chosen source of information when in fact this occurrence is likely at least 99.999% his own fault.  He got his info from a web site rather than proven hard copy.  He obviously used only a single source without double checking with any other.  You see where I'm going here at any rate.  He may not have broken all the rules of handloading but he did disregard a large number of them.  He should count his lucky stars he's still in a position to stop, go back to square one, and hopefully learn it right the next time.  Any way you look at it the outcome is a product of his own actions and not that of his chosen source of info.

[Thane_Of_Fife]

The problem I see with this thread is in the fact that the OP is passing blame on to HIS chosen source of information when in fact this occurrence is likely at least 99.999% his own fault.  He got his info from a web site rather than proven hard copy.  He obviously used only a single source without double checking with any other.  You see where I'm going here at any rate.  He may not have broken all the rules of handloading but he did disregard a large number of them.  He should count his lucky stars he's still in a position to stop, go back to square one, and hopefully learn it right the next time.  Any way you look at it the outcome is a product of his own actions and not that of his chosen source of info.

Actually, if you more carefully read my original post, you'll clearly see that I was not nearly as negligent as you claim.  I was initially given the load formula from an elderly gentleman working at my local gun shop who claimed he had been reloading for 40 years and he'd been using that load for x number of years for cowboy action 44mag.  I then looked in my Lyman 49 to find Titegroup in 44mag Thompson Contender loads but didn't see it.  My next step was to go to Hodgdon.com and look through their data to try and confirm that it was a "safe" recipe.  Lastly, I consulted Blackhawker to confirm that I was not by chance reading load data for a different caliber, powder etc.  As Blackhawker had never used or seen Titegroup powder before Monday's incident, he had no idea how fine the powder is and how little remaining case volume would be occupied by 7.0gr.  What both Blackhawker and I noticed was that Hodgdon's data showed a min charge of 4.7 and a max of 10.0 .  After the disaster we looked at Lyman again for 44mag data under different conditions, (rifle and handgun...instead of just T/C loads).  What we noticed here was two things; 1st, Lyman's min charge is nearly TWICE as large as the online data; 2nd, the total charge variation recommended by Lyman is 1gr, (9.0min - 10.0max), Hodgdon's variation is vast, (5.3gr as I'm sure you can infer).  Failure to check Lyman for rifle/pistol 44mag load data was, in my opinion, the greatest mistake I made in this matter and the only terms upon which I may be considered, to any degree, negligent.

           Why Lyman's minimum charge is twice as high as Hodgdon's and why the charge variation is 1gr as opposed to 5.3gr will, as CW clearly and logically said, "not be answered here", without thorough research the likes of which I myself am not funded or equipped to perform.  What I simply ask in conclusion is that my actions not be considered negligent in any other scope but that which was mentioned above.

Perhaps my preliminary sources of data fall in line with the age old adage, "you get what you pay for".  Both the initial load recipe and the Hodgdon.com data were free of charge...Lyman 49th Edition cost about $30.  My original case in point stands, Check Your Sources!  This was meant to be a word of caution to new reloaders, not a pissing contest about who's right and wrong or what actually happened when the hammer dropped.  Whether detonation was indeed at fault or if I double, tripple, quadruple or packed and compressed a boatload of Titegroup into that case is immaterial to the purpose of this message; it was simply the scenario that led me to question the validity of word-of-mouth and online data whereby I felt the need to make sure that no one else makes the same mistake I did...because the next person who makes this same mistake may not be as fortunate as myself and Blackhawker were.

[Lloyd Smale]

I still say 7 grains of titegroup in a 44 mag case is not a dangerous load. Its a rather common load actually. But a double charge of 14 is. It may be only a 40percent overcharge but pressure doesnt go up evenly with powder charges, especially with fast powders. A 4 grain overcharge in a rifle is a serious overcharge and will cause flattened primers and even locked up bolts in some cases. Take that same 4 grain overcharge and do it in a case as small as a 44 mag with a fast burning pistol or shotgun powder and that 4 grains can double or even tripple the pressure. I dont doubt detonation happens but ill bet my last dollar that 3/4s of the guns that have been destroyed that some guy claimed to have had happen do to detonation were in fact done by an overload or double load. Like i said it can happen to even a experienced loader. Heck it happened to me. Only diffence is Ive been around the block long enough to know that it had to have been a mistake on my part. I know im human and make mistakes and dont have to look at the big book of excuses to blame someone else or something else.

[Lloyd Smale]

by the way one of john linebaughs favorite poweder for light loads in the 500 linebaugh is titegroup. He runs 7-9 grains of tightgroup with 400 grain bullets. Now the 500 linebaugh case probably has twice the case volume that the 44 mag has. If there were going to be detonation problems it sure would show up first there. twice the case volume and twice the bullet weight being pushed.

[243dave]

Titegroup is the powder I use for cat-sneeze loads in my 45colt, and it works well.  In my 45colt rifle I have been as low as 2grs of Titegroup with no problems, I moved up to 3grs for fear of a stuck bullet (250gr cast) lodged in the barrel.  IMO Titegroup is a clean, versatile powder for pistol cartridges from very mild to medium loads.
Dave     

[Blackhawker]

I agree and have already suggested that pressure probably goes up exponentially after a point.  I actually think a 40% overcharge IS a LARGE overcharge and wouldn't say it's ONLY a 40% overcharge. 

I think enough has been said here.  We all need to be safe and careful.  Anything more and we're probably starting to beat a dead horse here.  I'm already starting to feel like the washer stuck in my face was less painful than this dragging on. 

I'm signing off at this point.  Thanks to all for your input and support.  (Lloyd, that was good info on the 500 Linebaugh)

Blackhawker   

....... Its a rather common load actually. But a double charge of 14 is. It may be only a 40percent overcharge but pressure doesnt go up evenly with powder charges, especially with fast powders.......

[Thane_Of_Fife]

Some seem to understand this more quickly than others

    I'm not telling you (Lloyd) or anyone else here how to reload or that I'm a perfect reloader and didn't screw up a charge but I'm simply trying to get a point out that you should check your sources of reloading recipes.  I'm thoroughly confused why, when trying to do new reloaders a service such as this, the vast majority of the community fires up and calls me a negligent reloader or a liar.  I still ponder as to whether or not any new reloaders read and learned something from my original post; if none have, then I've truly wasted a considerable amount of time in this.  For those who were to quick on the proverbial trigger to realize my point...
 THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE CHAMBER OF MY T/C I SIMPLY PRESENTED THE WHOLE STORY AND MY HYPOTHESIS TO GIVE CONTEXT TO MY PRINCIPAL CLAIM, EXPRESSED IN THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD, WHICH I BELIEVE TO BE INFALLIBLE!

As it appears as though this point hasn't been adequately realized, I'm done posting replies here.  For those who asked to see pictures, sorry but it has occurred to me that they would serve only to draw more people away from my original point.  I hereby leave this thread wide open to everyone to enjoy the ensuing and seemingly never-ending pissing contest.

To those who've expressed their concern and gratitude for the good fortune enjoyed by both myself and Blackhawker as we walked away from that incident virtually unscathed, you are true gentleman and you have my thanks.

God Bless!

JD

[SHOOTALL]

It is a good thing to warn new to the reloading process. You did a good thing ! However it is not a good thing to offer that a load that has been used with no ill effect by others and listed as a safe load in a couple reloading manuals is an unsafe load. You offer your opinion and others offer theirs . Some myself included have seen the result of over/double loads and your discription of what happened seems to fit . We will never know , you may find out if you have any loads left over . If so pull the bullets and check your powder charge to see .
At any rate no one was hurt bad and several safety topics came to light here. Good and safe shooting and reloading .

[quickdtoo]

Thanks for sharing your experience Thane_Of_Fife and Blackhawker, glad you weren't hurt seriously. 

Just for the record, this is what Hodgdon has to say about Titegroup and from what I've checked, their online data matches that of their annual publication.

Tim

http://www.hodgdon.com/shotpist.html

TITEGROUP®


 As the name implies, this spherical propellant was designed for accuracy. Because of the unique design, this powder provides flawless ignition with all types of primers including the lead-free versions. Unlike pistol powders of the past, powder position in large cases (45 Colt, 357 Magnum and others) has virtually no effect on velocity and performance. Cowboy Action, Bullseye and Combat Shooters should love this one! TITEGROUP has it all, low charge weight, clean burning, mild muzzle report and superb, uniform ballistics. Available in 1 lb., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.[/quote]

[rbursek]

Where did you come up with this piece of erroneous BS info?? Please for all of us un anal re loaders tell us where. Oh please document it!!!
   Our review of the event concluded that I simply got lucky with the 23 rounds and coincidentally tilted the barrel high enough that the powder was completely covering the primer but on the 24th, this was not the case.  For those who don't know, a primer MUST BE COMPLETELY COVERED IN POWDER WHEN THE FIREARM IS SITTING LEVEL.  If the primer is not covered by powder, than a detonation will occur where virtually all of the powder is simultaneously ignited in an unfathomable burst of pressure the likes of which cannot be handled by any firearm.  If the primer is covered, the powder charge is ignited from the back to the front in a controlled fashion which maintains the pressure and ensures safety.

[McDerry]

Is the 9 grain start load in the lymans manual for a lead or jacketed bullet?

[Lloyd Smale]

it sure wasnt me that infered you were a lier or a pour handloader. My post stated that everyone including experienced loaders make mistakes. Some of us just have been around the block long enough to know that what you experienced wasnt detonation. Like i said before detonation takes the rap for about every gun blow up. When in fact the actuall instances of it probalby could be counted on one of your hands. Also like rbursek brought up that info you have is totaly wrong. Anyone that says that the primer must be totaly covered by powder or detonation will occur must be awfull leary about shooting a gun down hill! Or taking a lever gun out of a scarab and shooting it. Some powders are more sensitive about case posistion then others but it usually shows up as poor accuracy not a blown up gun. There have probably been billions of 45 acps shot in competition with less then 3 grains of bullseye in them and that doesnt cover the primer when level and there shot in about every position possible and ive yet to see one blown up because of detonation. As a matter of fact i dont believe theres even one case on a handgun blowing up that detonation was proven to be the cause. Its more of a problem that occurs in rifles loaded with to light a charge of ball powder. take a chill pill. Nobody was hurt and id bet a dime to a dollar that even if you never did overload it youll sure be watching much closer in the future and it will make you a better handloader.

[Old Syko]

The most important thing to take from all this is the fact that learning to reload is like everything else in life.  If you don't "own" your own mistakes you will never learn from them.  If you believe detonation is a possibility don't put yourself in the position of being effected by it.  We live or die by our own choices.  When we realize that all the manuals and all the data available are nothing more than rough guidelines and not necessarily science and we have to depend on ourselves solely for our own outcome, we begin to make better and safer products.

[rbursek]

I would think a call or email to the primer or/and powder manifacture and explain your theory and ask there vast knowledgable staff you may get a more defined answer instead of guessing yourself and opinions here. Thats where I would have started.

[Blackhawker]

Although I said I was signing off, here I am, still reading the posts.  The reason for my "signing off" was because I saw that this was going south fast and I figured what had to be said was said.  All posters have good points raised here.  The topic has us all thinking and that's good because in the end, we're all thinking of safety.  As I said earlier on the thread; this is what a discussion forum is for....to share ideas, thoughts and discuss them.....I just hate when things turn to arguments or posters feel isolated and/or attacked.  Nothing is solved nor is it very helpful to others when we vent in this manner here.  Some believe in the detonation theory and some don't and that's all fine by me.  As CW said from the start, we're never going to uncover the mystery or prove or dis-prove the theory here.  Perhaps no one ever will.    Maybe it's as good and sound as the Loc Ness Monster or Bigfoot.   Who knows?
 
 As I stated earlier, I have no experience with Titegroup and know nothing about it despite having been a loader since the mid 80's.  My lack of knowledge and experience with it was why I was hesitant for Thane to use it in his .44 loads as I couldn't assist or guide him in its use.  After some of your posts and Tim's post (Thanks Tim...always appreciated!) I decided to poke around more through my load manuals looking at what calibers and load levels in which Titegoup is used.  It appears that it commonly is used in very small dosages in calibers ranging from 32 mag to 500 Linebaugh and according to the Hodgdon manual, it can be used in nearly every pistol/revolver caliber.  WOW!....very impressive! 

 After the blow-up the other day, Thane pulled a couple of bullets from his loads for me and I was surprised to see how small of a charge he had used, although according to the books, it was perfectly fine to do so.  (yet unknown to me at the time)  I typically use "bulkier" powders and the load sure looked undercharged to me at the moment and it was at that moment I thought that maybe this was a detonation as I have read about in the past.  I had explained the detonation theory to Thane and perhaps he didn't relay it here in perfect wording, hence why so many have offered the "BS meter" etc.  He's a new loader and this was the first he had heard of it and given the circumstances of him just having a gun blow up in his hands, please give him a break for not conveying it perfectly and without every detail covered.  (if this theory holds true or not)  Personally, this was the first experience I've ever had with a gun blowing up.  ONCE IS ENOUGH! 
 
 Over the course of the past two days while reading over load data and hearing many of your points given about Titegroup, I have been more swayed to the side that this was a double charge.  A 40% overcharge is a VERY CONSIDERABLE charge, especially when dealing with a max load already nearing 40,000 cup.  To go that far over is probably hot enough to be catastrophic.  Personally, I will still stay with the bulkier powders in order to stay clear of the potential of detonations and to avoid double charges, but that is just my choice.  Obviously many of you have had much luck with Titegroup and as I see loads posted for nearly every caliber in the Hodgdon manual, it must have some merit as being a good powder. 
 
 I certainly don't want to impose any hard feelings to anyone here nor do I think Thane wants or wanted the same.  We all have opinions and sometimes they can hit nerves and things can get a little "sticky" but when it comes down to it, we are all in the same boat together; we're loaders who want good accuracy, we want our gun rights, and most of all, we want to be safe.  After seeing a threads and topics such as this I'm sure that all of us will be just a little bit more careful and cautious at our loading benches and I think that's mostly what Thane's intent was here.  It certainly is mine.
 
 Again, thanks to all, good shootin' and have a happy and safe holiday!
 Blackhawker

[BruceP]

In the vain of the original intent of this tread, safety, I'll end my part of this with my personal load process for use of powders that could be double charged. When I get to the point of the powder charge this is done to every case and the case put in the loading block. When all cases are charged I then set the loading block on my stool directly under the overhead light and look at the powder level in each case. If I can not see as well as if feel I need to or if I have a doubt about any case I will even get out a flashlight and re-check the cases. Of course if I still feel uncertain about any charge I will dump it into my scale pan and check the weight. Only at this point will I put a bullet in the case.

Bruce

[243dave]

I'll give my opinion on the big difference in starting loads between Lyman and Hodgdon manuels with pistol cartridges(such as the 44 mag) and fast burning powders like Titegroup.  The reason being is not because of detenation but because of bullets lodging in the barrels.  For example, most pistol cartridges are fired in pistols only and most powder manufactors test and print info for pistols only and not rifles.  Take the same minimum starting load info from hodgdon and add a few elements and things can go wrong.  Bad element (1.) long rifle barrel  (2.) rough barrel  (3.) a jacketed bullet used where cast should be.  These elements will cause a great more friction and a bullet can be easily lodged in the barrel.  If the shooter doesn't notice the bullet stuck in the barrel and believes it went down-range the next bullet down the tube can destroy the gun and injure the shooter.  Lyman prints a cautious minimum load and starts with 9grs of Titegroup (for rifles) instead of Hodgdons 4.7grs(for pistols) because they took into account the elements listed above and not because of detenation problems.
This is my opinion and thought I'd shed some new light on the topic, of course this doesn't mean I'm right but I like to think so.
Dave

[Blackhawker]

Good helpful thoughts Dave and Bruce!
While I tend to load one bullet at a time but either way, tray or one at a time, an overabundance of light is great when checking charges in the cases.  I have a 300 watt halogen work light set up high above my bench when I load.  I nearly need sunglasses.   

Dave, you're right about pistol/revolver data vs for long barrels and charges for jacketed bullets vs. cast.  I would say that for every one blown up gun I hear about, I hear about at least five of six with bullets stuck in the barrel.  Seems to happen quite frequently.

[quickdtoo]

Just out of curiosity, I ran the double charged 240gr LSWC load thru QuickLoad software resulting in a predicted pressure of 69142 PSI!  I suspect the 44mag barrel looks somewhat like this 444 barrel, I don't think the 6-hole scope mount was a good idea tho, it certainly didn't help the integrity of the 444 barrel.   

Tim


http://cdk357.tripod.com/444blowup.html

[BruceP]

Blackwater, in some instances I also seat the bullets one at a time, like in most bottleneck rifle cartridges. In the low density loads for pistols and also 45/70 cast bullets with lower charge weights of faster burning powder I then change to the earlier stated process for add piece of mind that I have done all I can to be not only safe but consistant. After all even a 1/10gr. - 2/10gr. variation in charge weight Unique in  44 Mag. is a greater percentage that the same variation of say H4831 in a 270 Winchester, both in charge weight and in resulting pressure.

Bruce

[Blackhawker]

Hi Tim,
Since I can't get this incident out of my mind, I was quickly calculating some pressures using the Lyman data for pressures vs. charge on my lunch break today.  I did a simple and rough calculation, figuring that pressure is linear with charge, which I'm sure it is not.  I came up with roughly 69,000 CUP.  I'm sure that as the pressure builds, however, the pressure more than likely builds at a higher rate (possibly exponentially) with the charge increase, so I figured this barrel to have probably blown up from a force ranging from 70,000 CUP to probably more realistically over 80,000 CUP.  I have read that Ruger cylinders typically blow around 80,000 CUP so I'm sure this was right on par with that.  Unfortunately, there is no direct translation (as far as I know) for CUP and PSI but I'm sure we're both in the same ball park here......total catastrophic failure.  This is yet another piece of evidence as to why I now suspect a double charge.

Simply, yes, the barrel looked nearly exactly like that!  Broken wide open from the rear of the barrel chamber to about an inch or so in front of the throat of the chamber.  The sides of the frame had spread apart but the rest of the frame was in good shape.  There was enough widening of the frame so that the barrel mounting pin could not be removed as it was binding on the frame walls a bit.  We tried hammering on it with a mallet and hex fitting to try to remove it but failed.  I had forgotten that I had my punch set with me in my range bag, however.  Understandably so, I was a little "out of it" after this. 

Yesterday Thane gave me the OK to post pics but later he was a little upset (as indicated by his last posting) so I don't know if he's still OK with posting or not.  When I talk to him again I'll ask.

Thanks for the info and pics Tim!

Blackhawker

Just out of curiosity, I ran the double charged 240gr LSWC load thru QuickLoad software resulting in a predicted pressure of 69142 PSI!  I suspect the 44mag barrel looks somewhat like this 444 barrel, I don't think the 6-hole scope mount was a good idea tho, it certainly didn't help the integrity of the 444 barrel.   

Tim


http://cdk357.tripod.com/444blowup.html

[Blackhawker]

By the way Tim, where did you come upon your QuickLoad software?  This sounds like something I need to invest in. 

[Brithunter]

Guys I am sorry to read this and am just glad that you are both OK even though we don't in truth know one another I am still just glad your both fine.


Now Ackely tried to produce a detonation in his lab but never succeeded.


May I ask if the gun was of stainless construction?


The reason I ask is I recall the hassles with those stainless rifles splitting barrels and even further back the Beretta 92's having slides fail.


Take care and be safe. Best wishes for the future.


Edit:- For Quickload try here:-


http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

[quickdtoo]

By the way Tim, where did you come upon your QuickLoad software?  This sounds like something I need to invest in.

Brithunter got it right, NECO is the only source in the US that I know of.

Tim

[Brithunter]

By the way Tim, where did you come upon your QuickLoad software?  This sounds like something I need to invest in.

Brithunter got it right, NECO is the only source in the US that I know of.

Tim

   Actually Google got it right .................................... I just did a web search    and posted what it found.  Search engines are wonderful things.

[Blackhawker]

Thanks Tim and Brithunter.  I googled it and got to the NECO site the other day.  I was just trying to see if there were any other dealers that had it at a slightly lower price.  Couldn't find it on Midway, Midsouth, or any of the other supply houses, as Tim has already indicated.
 
Brithunter, this was a blued barrel.  It basically looks exactly like that .444 Marlin that Tim posted.  This barrel, however, was an 8 inch octaganal barrel and equiped for shooting shot cartridges.  There was no choke in place when this happened so it had nothing to do with the explosion.  The pics that Tim supplied look nearly identical to this barrel.  It split up the middle and at the seven and four o'clock positions and turned upward, ribbons of the barrel, much like a bannana pealed into three sections.

[carbineman]

In the vain of the original intent of this tread, safety, I'll end my part of this with my personal load process for use of powders that could be double charged. When I get to the point of the powder charge this is done to every case and the case put in the loading block. When all cases are charged I then set the loading block on my stool directly under the overhead light and look at the powder level in each case. If I can not see as well as if feel I need to or if I have a doubt about any case I will even get out a flashlight and re-check the cases. Of course if I still feel uncertain about any charge I will dump it into my scale pan and check the weight. Only at this point will I put a bullet in the case.

Bruce

Bruce, Good Post, I agree 100% on double checking charged cases. I use the mini mag method. With loading 9mm Parabellum with AA#2 it could easily happen to my loads as well.