Author Topic: Diet Coke for breech plugs (Read 3921 times)

Cornbelt · « **on:** November 30, 2011, 03:35:32 PM »

Might have gotten the idea here at GBO, but someone brought a muzzle loader w/a stuck breech plug. Couldn't even get it out w/heat. After soaking all night in diet coke, it came right out. Then the bore got a good soaking all day. Cleaned right up.

blind ear · « **Reply #1 on:** November 30, 2011, 05:14:34 PM »

Will it remove the blueing? I have seen regular coke take off the blueing. ear

Cornbelt · « **Reply #2 on:** December 01, 2011, 03:32:11 PM »

I don't know. There wasn't any left. Might try it on a piece of something though. That might be good to know beforehand.

briarpatch · « **Reply #3 on:** December 01, 2011, 05:03:34 PM »

Dont know what it will do to bluing. The question I have is. Who? Who would try diet coke on a breech plug. Why would you try diet coke on a breech plug?
Gives new meaning to "dont know s--t from shine-ola". someone must have tried --it in place of shine-ola.
But if it works...

blind ear · « **Reply #4 on:** December 01, 2011, 09:41:49 PM »

Coke is a lot if acid. Carbolic acid from the co2, the sugar is an acid when in solution also. Coke has been used to clean engins and other things. ear

vacek · « **Reply #5 on:** December 02, 2011, 02:18:19 AM »

Boys, I don't usually pull out the chemistry card but think I will on this one. Carbolic acid is another word for phenol (think benzene wih an alcohol group on it). I think you were meaning carbonic acid. However most soda pop contains phosphoric acid (hence the old name for the beverage ... a phosphate). Phosphoric (H3PO4) acid isn't as strong an acid as hydrochloric (HCl), nitric (HNO3), or sulfuric (H2SO4) acid in its abiity to quickly dissociate and corrode; but its toal acidity, note it has 3 hydrogen ions versus 1 on hydrochloric and nitric and 2 on sulfuric gives it a greater total acidity. So it is considered a moderate strength acid, whereas the other 3 acids are strong. Acetic acid (vinegar) is a weak acid.

blind ear · « **Reply #6 on:** December 02, 2011, 04:33:34 AM »

Quote from: vacek on December 02, 2011, 02:18:19 AM

Boys, I don't usually pull out the chemistry card but think I will on this one. Carbolic acid is another word for phenol (think benzene wih an alcohol group on it). I think you were meaning carbonic acid. However most soda pop contains phosphoric acid (hence the old name for the beverage ... a phosphate). Phosphoric (H3PO4) acid isn't as strong an acid as hydrochloric (HCl) . nitric (HNO3), or sulfuric (H2SO4) acid in its abiity to quickly dissociate and corrode but its toal acidity, note it has 3 hydrogen ions versus 1 on hydrochloric and nictric and 2 on sulfuric gives it a greater total acidity. So it is considered a moderate strength acid, whereas the other 3 a strong with acetic acid (vinegar) a weak acid.

I certainly wouldn't argue with that. Way too long since I had chemistry. What does that mean in terms of losening the breach plug or removeing the blueing?
Thanks, ear

vacek · « **Reply #7 on:** December 02, 2011, 05:19:38 PM »

Ear,
I don't know about loosening breech plugs but here is my go at it. Iron and other metals tend to become more soluble as the pH decreases. However to decrease pH you don't want your acid to be overly corrosive but you want a lot of total acidity. 1 Mole of HCl is very corrosive but has 3 times less total acidity as 1 Mole of H3PO4 which isn't as corrosive (remember it is a weaker acid). So Phos acid does lower the pH of the matrix which helps the oxidized iron to go into solution. Rust exposes a lot more surface area than the unrusted barrel surface thereby going into solution easier. Think 1 gram of salt powdered vs a 1 gram salt cube. Same amount of salt but the powdered salt has more surface area; therefore dissolves more quickly.

So the phos acid provides a lot of acidity to maintain a good solution to solubize iron, without being overly corrosive.

Kinda rambling there but I hope it helps.

mechanic · « **Reply #8 on:** December 02, 2011, 05:31:36 PM »

My head hurts.....

Ben

blind ear · « **Reply #9 on:** December 02, 2011, 05:36:44 PM »

I am more on the plumber level.

Plumber:"Can you use sulfuric acid to open drain pipes?

VACEK:"I don't know about loosening breech plugs but here is my go at it. Iron and other metals tend to become more soluble as pH decreases. However to decrease pH you don't want your acid to be overly corrosive but you want a lot of total acidity. 1 Mole of HCl is very corrosivebut has 3 times less total acidity as 1 Mole of H3PO4 which isn't as corrosive (remember it is a weaker acid). So Phos acid does lower the pH of the matrix which helps the oxidized iron to go into solution. Rust exposes a lot more surface area than the unrusted barrel surface thereby going into solution easier. Think 1 gram of salt powdered vs a 1 gram salt cube. Same amount of salt but the powdered salt has more surface area therefore dissolves more quickly."

Plumber: Can you use sulfuric acid on drain pipes?

VACEK:"I don't know about loosening breech plugs but here is my go at it. Iron and other metals tend to become more soluble as pH decreases. However to decrease pH you don't want your acid to be overly corrosive but you want a lot of total acidity. 1 Mole of HCl is very corrosivebut has 3 times less total acidity as 1 Mole of H3PO4 which isn't as corrosive (remember it is a weaker acid). So Phos acid does lower the pH of the matrix which helps the oxidized iron to go into solution. Rust exposes a lot more surface area than the unrusted barrel surface thereby going into solution easier. Think 1 gram of salt powdered vs a 1 gram salt cube. Same amount of salt but the powdered salt has more surface area therefore dissolves more quickly."

Plumber: can you use it on drain pipes? it cleans stuff up real good.

Third and final answer:

vacek: "no, it eats the hell out of the pipes."

(just a real old joke about explinations being too far above the recipients head to be usefull told to me by a college statistics teacher)

It cleans stuff up real good!

Thanks ear

Cornbelt · « **Reply #10 on:** December 03, 2011, 12:47:26 AM »

Yep. It removes buleing too. Took niter blue right off overnight. Its still working on oxide blue, (they're just another kind of rust, huh)?
Always did like chemistry in a mad alchimist sort of way. Never did understand it though. So glad for the explaination, VACEK. Now you'll be the go-to guy for all my questions about turning Mother Nature into a friend from a devious old slut.
UH... like how many dead cats in a pound of saltpeter.

blind ear · « **Reply #11 on:** December 03, 2011, 01:47:51 AM »

Go for it Cornbelt, I don't even know how to ask a question. ear

cwlongshot · « **Reply #12 on:** December 03, 2011, 02:28:19 AM »

LOL.
Good stuff here!! I did'nt know how it worked, only that it has been used to remove rust from corroded parts for as long as I can remember....
I seem to remember a Utube vid where it completely ate and disentigrated something...

Cream of tarter was another one my grand father used on corrosion.

CW

briarpatch · « **Reply #13 on:** December 03, 2011, 03:04:56 AM »

What a man can learn on here is impossible to imagine. Thanks guys.

vacek · « **Reply #14 on:** December 03, 2011, 08:06:03 AM »

Ear,

My apologies for going too much in depth. I tried to explain it as clearly as possible and sometimes you have to get into a little science. Anyway, if the S does HTF y'all might just want an old fart chemist around. I can't change my oil worth a hoot but have other talents.

blind ear · « **Reply #15 on:** December 03, 2011, 02:27:07 PM »

I'm good, no apololgies necessary. I was just pokin. ear

mechanic · « **Reply #16 on:** December 03, 2011, 02:51:14 PM »

When I posted my head hurts....I was paying you a backhanded compliment vacek. My knowledge of chemistry ended with 11th grade, and I forgot most of that. I do know what happens when you put Mentos in Coke however........

Ben

briarpatch · « **Reply #17 on:** December 03, 2011, 03:25:48 PM »

Vacek, My hat is off to you, I want your autograph. I have to look up water when I want to know what it is made of. Thanks for being here.

You are my new hero.

Cornbelt · « **Reply #18 on:** December 04, 2011, 07:50:07 AM »

Dihydro monoxide is my favorite chemical, (and they make diet coke w/it). A little is good for you; too much can kill you to death.
If you don't believe me, ask VACEK.

vacek · « **Reply #19 on:** December 04, 2011, 03:33:43 PM »

Cornbelt,

Somewhere, and I will have to look, is a great write-up on Dihydrogen Monoxide (H2O) that is really funny and in a subtle way pushes back on all the chemophobia out there. If I find it, I will post it.

My hat is always off to you guys who are good with tools. Growing up on a farm and ranch my grandfather told me to go to college, since I was useless mechanically. He was saying it somewhat in jest, but I got his point.

Rex in OTZ · « **Reply #20 on:** December 06, 2011, 09:54:17 AM »

stuck breech plugs are just another mechanical problem of many
I remember as a kid my father attempting to free froze motor on a H model Farmall Tractor, in the end we ended up pulling off the heads and trying many diffrent methods to free the stuck piston (air & cheater bar, pulling and poping the clutch, PTO-to PTO, hammering on stuck piston with block of wood and sledge), We tried all sorts of oils, even diesel for 2 weeks, others we tried was CRC, WD-40, Kroil, even got desparate and used 2 Litrs Coke-a-Cola we managed to get the piston freed and the tractor back up running (heavy chain & hydrulic Jack on the stuck piston).

here are some ideas other folks try.......Ive used the heat and substituted candle wax (no bee wax) before with mixed results.
http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/stuck.htm

tacklebury · « **Reply #21 on:** December 06, 2011, 02:43:01 PM »

I saw a show somewhere, where they dropped several human teeth into the coke and it ate them over a period of time. Don't remember how long, but I know I was shocked. Was glad I don't drink that crud either! Just water, coffee, iced tea and lemonade occasionally.

Well, maybe 1 or 2 mountain dews a year if I eat at a burger joint. hehe

cwlongshot · « **Reply #22 on:** December 06, 2011, 11:53:36 PM »

Quote from: tacklebury on December 06, 2011, 02:43:01 PM

I saw a show somewhere, where they dropped several human teeth into the coke and it ate them over a period of time. Don't remember how long, but I know I was shocked. Was glad I don't drink that crud either! Just water, coffee, iced tea and lemonade occasionally. Well, maybe 1 or 2 mountain dews a year if I eat at a burger joint. hehe

I hear that!

Just Water, Blk Coffee and occasional good dark beer for me!

CW

saddlebum · « **Reply #23 on:** December 07, 2011, 12:55:02 AM »

When I roughnecked in the oil fields, I used to pour a couple of cans of Coke in the washing machine when I washed my "greasers". Takes the crude oil and grease right out of clothes.
I never liked Coke much. But after seeing what it did breaking down the oil in my clothes, I will never drink it again.

Cornbelt · « **Reply #24 on:** December 07, 2011, 03:16:10 AM »

Quote from: saddlebum on December 07, 2011, 12:55:02 AM

When I roughnecked in the oil fields, I used to pour a couple of cans of Coke in the washing machine when I washed my "greasers". Takes the crude oil and grease right out of clothes.
I never liked Coke much. But after seeing what it did breaking down the oil in my clothes, I will never drink it again.

And the "diet" kind isn't any better. A cousin who used to work on soft drink machines said the diet drinks would literally dissolve the O-rings.
So just to protect my O-rings, I'm gonna avoid it.

Old Fart · « **Reply #25 on:** December 07, 2011, 07:51:15 AM »

Back when I just got out of high school a buddy of mine got me a job at the local Coca-Cola bottling company.
I can tell you from experience the most aggressive syrup was the Tab cola stuff.
Every now and then some would get spilled on the floor.
It would flat eat a hole in the concrete in just a few minutes.

Didn't like Tab before working there and sure haven't since.

vacek · « **Reply #26 on:** December 26, 2011, 06:55:12 AM »

Gentlemen,

Its all about dilution of a concentrated product, in this case an acid. We all use vinegar which is diluted acetic acid. Concentrated acetic acid is call glacial acetic acid and believe me you wouldn't want to use it to make salad dressing. If you were on the production end of a lot of food and beverage you might consider a starvation diet.

.

Think of it this way. Everytime we reload a cartridge we make sure we have the correct amount of powder for the job. Too little or too much, or the wrong powder in the wrong cartridge and things go wrong. At the production end of making the powder there are all kinds of bad things, like nitric acid, nitroglycerine, etc. We don't see that anymore than we see the concentrated acids used to make a soft drink.

One thing that truly bothers me in this day and age is the chemophobia and lack of general knowledge about chemical products. I blame that on the liberal school system and yes the science teachers that didn't know how to make science interesting and understandable. I will never forget a fellow who was afraid of touching leather since he heard that tannic acid was used to tan the hide with. Just because the word "acid" was used he went off the deep end assuming it was really nasty. Then I told him about the acid in vinegar and soda pop.

blind ear · « **Reply #27 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:30:22 AM »

Stomach acid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stomach_acid

Gastric acid is a digestive fluid, formed in the stomach. It has a pH of 1.5 to 3.5 and is composed of hydrochloric acid (HCl) (around 0.5%, or 5000 parts per million), and large quantities of potassium chloride (KCl) and sodium chloride (NaCl). The acid plays a key role in digestion of proteins, by activating digestive enzymes, and making ingested proteins unravel so that digestive enzymes can break down the long chains of amino acids.
Gastric acid is produced by cells lining the stomach, which are coupled to systems to increase acid production when needed. Other cells in the stomach produce bicarbonate to buffer the acid, ensuring the pH does not drop too low (acid reduces pH). Also cells in the beginning of the small intestine, or duodenum, produce large amounts of bicarbonate to completely neutralize any gastric acid that passes further down into the digestive tract. The bicarbonate-secreting cells in the stomach also produce and secrete mucus. Mucus forms a viscous physical barrier to prevent gastric acid from damaging the stomach.

vacek · « **Reply #28 on:** December 30, 2011, 05:29:54 AM »

Blind Ear,

Bingo. Good reference.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #29 on:** December 30, 2011, 06:03:28 AM »

Quote from: blind ear on December 02, 2011, 05:36:44 PM

I am more on the plumber level.

Plumber:"Can you use sulfuric acid to open drain pipes?

VACEK:"I don't know about loosening breech plugs but here is my go at it. Iron and other metals tend to become more soluble as pH decreases. However to decrease pH you don't want your acid to be overly corrosive but you want a lot of total acidity. 1 Mole of HCl is very corrosivebut has 3 times less total acidity as 1 Mole of H3PO4 which isn't as corrosive (remember it is a weaker acid). So Phos acid does lower the pH of the matrix which helps the oxidized iron to go into solution. Rust exposes a lot more surface area than the unrusted barrel surface thereby going into solution easier. Think 1 gram of salt powdered vs a 1 gram salt cube. Same amount of salt but the powdered salt has more surface area therefore dissolves more quickly."

Plumber: Can you use sulfuric acid on drain pipes?

VACEK:"I don't know about loosening breech plugs but here is my go at it. Iron and other metals tend to become more soluble as pH decreases. However to decrease pH you don't want your acid to be overly corrosive but you want a lot of total acidity. 1 Mole of HCl is very corrosivebut has 3 times less total acidity as 1 Mole of H3PO4 which isn't as corrosive (remember it is a weaker acid). So Phos acid does lower the pH of the matrix which helps the oxidized iron to go into solution. Rust exposes a lot more surface area than the unrusted barrel surface thereby going into solution easier. Think 1 gram of salt powdered vs a 1 gram salt cube. Same amount of salt but the powdered salt has more surface area therefore dissolves more quickly."

Plumber: can you use it on drain pipes? it cleans stuff up real good.

Third and final answer:

vacek: "no, it eats the hell out of the pipes."

(just a real old joke about explinations being too far above the recipients head to be usefull told to me by a college statistics teacher)

It cleans stuff up real good!

Thanks ear

to be honest we plumbers do use it and it will eat thru metal pipes but not plastic. We also dump sugar in pipes blocked by concrete add water then wait a couple weeks and it cleared. As for the coke on breach plugs . I have used Coke on battries to clean off the corrosion many years. The crud on the breach plug is often corrosion so it seems it eats the corrosion