Author Topic: Triple Seven Pellets - Favor (Read 2501 times)

sabotloader · « **on:** January 14, 2004, 12:59:45 PM »

Could I get someone to do me a favor - I don't use pellets and I don't want buy a box, would somebody that has em measure 10-15 pieces of T7 50 grain pellets on a powder scale and see what they actually weight on the average. I know that means nothing to the grains of normal powder. I am just compiling some information - I have a box Pyrodex and a bottle of Clean Shot that I have already measured...

If you get time - Thank you in advance

savageT · « **Reply #1 on:** January 14, 2004, 03:22:46 PM »

sabotloader........
Won't mean a darn thing and I'll tell you the reason. Pyrodex, Triple 7, Cleanshot all are extremely hygroscopic....that is they pick up water vapor from the air, so unless someone can insure that they are all the same lot, stored in the same envronmental conditions.....it won't mean anything.

Jim

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #2 on:** January 14, 2004, 03:54:14 PM »

By weight, they are about 32.3 grains per pellet. Not hard to see how you are paying $25 ($35 at Wally World locally) for 3230 grains, less than half a pound.

So, for the privilege of using T7 pellets-- you are paying $55 (or more) for a pound of powder.

sabotloader · « **Reply #3 on:** January 14, 2004, 05:48:11 PM »

Thanks Randy, I was quite sure that you would know. The weight goes along with what I was calculating after weighing Pyrodex and Clean Shot.

sheephunterab · « **Reply #4 on:** January 14, 2004, 08:58:18 PM »

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So, for the privilege of using T7 pellets-- you are paying $55 (or more) for a pound of powder.

Randy this song is getting a little tired. You know that pellets produce higher velocities than the same amount of loose powder. Possibly the difference is not as much with 100 grains but step up to three Pyro pellets versus 150 grains of loose Pyro and you'll see an extra 250 fps, at least out of the Omega. You of all people should approve of extra performance, shooting a Savage and all.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #5 on:** January 14, 2004, 11:08:22 PM »

Quote from: sheephunterab

You know that pellets produce higher velocities than the same amount of loose powder. Possibly the difference is not as much with 100 grains but step up to three Pyro pellets versus 150 grains of loose Pyro and you'll see an extra 250 fps, at least out of the Omega. You of all people should approve of extra performance, shooting a Savage and all.

I know no such thing. 100 grains of Pyrodex pellets and 100 grains of Pyrodex produce similar velocities, and 100 grains of Triple 7 loose produces markedly higher velocities.

The 250 fps you may see in your Omega is not present in a Thompson Contender, nor does it exist with a 300 grain or 340 saboted bullet, or a 348 or 405 gr. Powerbelt. The fastest velocities I've recorded are with Triple 7 FFFg loose powder-- not with pellets.

Per volumetric grain charge, Triple 7 loose powder is far and away the speed king. The fact that it costs a fraction of the price of pellets to shoot is just a bonus.

big6x6 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 15, 2004, 02:49:46 AM »

"You know that pellets produce higher velocities than the same amount of loose powder."

If we're talking about 777 pellets, I have not found that to be true.

Knight Disc Extreme .50 300gr Shockwave
2- 777 pellets(100gr equav.) 1657fps
90gr 777 fffg -1718fps
100gr 777 fffg-1800fps

Knight Disc Extreme .50 235gr QT
2- 777 pellets -1616fps
2- Pyrodex pellets -1690fps
3- 777 pellets -2161fps
3- Pyrodex pellets -2087fps
90gr fffg 777 - 1776fps

Austin Halleck 420 .50 348gr PB Aerotip
90gr 777 ffg 1544fps
100gr 777 ffg 1577fps
110gr 777 fffg 1660fps
2 777 pellets 1520fps
3 777 pellets 1725fps

Austin Hallack 420 .50 250gr SST
100gr 777 fffg 1868fps
2 777 pellets 1750fps
3 777 pellets 2134fps

T/C Omega .50 250gr Shockwave
2 777 pellets 1800fps
100gr ffg 777 1909fps

sabotloader · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2004, 04:27:34 AM »

Big6x6 - outstanding information - thank you... Exactly what I was looking for, actually trying to figure out with out a chrono.

I don't use pellets, got on the Randy kick of expense because they are! and I have been getting beat up by freinds using pellets - thinking they were shooting a 300 winnie mag compared to my loose powdered 30-06. Even when we hunt and I make equal shots - It was just luck, BUT chrono numbers don't lie

sheephunterab · « **Reply #8 on:** January 15, 2004, 06:32:28 AM »

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I know no such thing. 100 grains of Pyrodex pellets and 100 grains of Pyrodex produce similar velocities, and 100 grains of Triple 7 loose produces markedly higher velocities.

Actually, if you read my post again, you'll see I was talking about 150 grains of Pyrodex. The loose to pellet comparison of T7 and velocities is not really fair either. There is more powder with 50 grains of loose by both volume aqnd weight than there is with a 50 grain pellet.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2004, 07:09:17 AM »

If the object is strictly higher muzzle velocity, three "50 gr." pellets of Triple 7 offers higher velocities than the Pyrodex pellet loads, and 150 grains of Triple 7 FFFg loose powder offers higher velocities than any three 50 gr. pellet loads, Pyrodex or Triple 7. You must not have tried it.

sabotloader · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2004, 07:31:12 AM »

Randy, the last two posts include the information I think I am trying find or get understood by us general type people...

1. "There is more powder with 50 grains of loose by both volume and weight than there is with a 50 grain pellet. (T7)"

2."and 150 grains of Triple 7 FFFg loose powder offers higher velocities than any three 50 gr. pellet loads, Pyrodex or Triple 7."

Therefore, is that why manufactures and Hodgdon are saying 100 grains of loose T7 max in a 50 cal.

Your information of the weight of one pellet 32.3 and my attempt at comparing the weight of several (25 times) of 50 grains by volume of loose T7 both 2f and 3f bare this out. Loose 50 grains (by volume) of T7 is (appears to be) greater than a 50 grain t7 tablet. With that I am thinking that is why Hodgdon and the manufactures are limiting loose t7 - am I way off base?

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2004, 08:33:12 AM »

Quote from: sabotloader

With that I am thinking that is why Hodgdon and the manufactures are limiting loose t7 - am I way off base?

Hodgdon's recommended max. pellet loads, see hodgdon.com, have always been generally 100 grains max. for Pyrodex-- Triple 7 pellets just continue that.

There is a world of difference between the design, strength, and construction of a 416 GBQ SS barreled 10ML-10 Savage and the lowest common denominator of older muzzleloaders manufactured and sold before pellets of any kind were available, sabots were not nearly as good as they are today (or not even in common use), and the higher energy Triple 7 propellant was not even invented.

There are no muzzleloading rifle pressure standards in this country, and no governing body with minimum standards such as SAAMI in sporting arms, the SAE, or ANSI. That muddies the waters quite a bit.

sheephunterab · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2004, 09:06:44 AM »

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If the object is strictly higher muzzle velocity, three "50 gr." pellets of Triple 7 offers higher velocities than the Pyrodex pellet loads, and 150 grains of Triple 7 FFFg loose powder offers higher velocities than any three 50 gr. pellet loads, Pyrodex or Triple 7. You must not have tried it.

I haven't seen any gun manufacturers saying that 150 grains of T7, pellets or loose was recommended or safe, so you are right, I haven't tried. I have no desire to be a winner of a Darwin award.

upnorth · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2004, 09:44:33 AM »

Why are we always splitting hairs?! does the animal really care if the round that kills him is going 1718 fps or 1800 fps? :wink: :wink:

sheephunterab · « **Reply #14 on:** January 15, 2004, 10:45:05 AM »

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Why are we always splitting hairs?! does the animal really care if the round that kills him is going 1718 fps or 1800 fps?

No, likely not but at 200 yards there is a lot better chance of hitting where you aim if the bullet is going 2,300fps. The flatter the trajectory, the more accurate you will be over your hunting ranges. I don't think that 400 fps is splitting hairs.

jeff223 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 15, 2004, 12:49:56 PM »

this has been a good read for me.
tell me this.if you were to take a Knight muz loader with a 26in barrel and load it with a max load of 3 pyo pellets(150gr) and shoot it through a chrono then load the same rifle with the same bullet but over a max load of 777 loose(125gr)then shoot it through the chrono.witch one would shoot faster?
not tring to be a smart ass here but i would like to know.
thanks

sheephunterab · « **Reply #16 on:** January 15, 2004, 01:15:59 PM »

I can't say for certain out of the Knight but in the Omega, definately three Pyro pellets would give you an additional 200-250 fps over 125 grains of T7. 125 grains of T7 gives you about the same velocity as 150 grains of loose Pyrodex. Nothing I've shot that is recommended in my gun gives you more velocity than three Pyro pellets. I'll pay the extra for performance.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #17 on:** January 15, 2004, 01:52:25 PM »

[quote="sheephunterab]I haven't seen any gun manufacturers saying that 150 grains of T7, pellets or loose was recommended or safe, so you are right, I haven't tried. I have no desire to be a winner of a Darwin award.[/quote]

Then you just have not asked. 150 grains Triple 7 pellets is allowed in your Omega, Encores, Knight Extremes, Elites, etc.

Specific loads anyone can verify with the manufacturer if they choose-- bullet weight is part of the equation.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #18 on:** January 15, 2004, 01:57:32 PM »

Quote from: jeff223

tell me this.if you were to take a Knight muz loader with a 26in barrel and load it with a max load of 3 pyo pellets(150gr) and shoot it through a chrono then load the same rifle with the same bullet but over a max load of 777 loose(125gr)then shoot it through the chrono.witch one would shoot faster?

If it is T 7 FFFg, it will be very close. The only way to know exactly is to try it yourself, your gun. Knight can give you the specifics on what is allowed by exact gun and bullet.

big6x6 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 15, 2004, 02:10:42 PM »

"I can't say for certain out of the Knight but in the Omega, definately three Pyro pellets would give you an additional 200-250 fps over 125 grains of T7"

With what weight bullet? It certainly won't happen with a 348gr Powerbelt. I can't see it being that much difference with a 250gr Shockwave either. EITHER WAY, I WILL report the exact velocity of each(250gr Shockwave with 3 Pyrodex pellets, 3 777 pellets, 120gr 777) Sunday or Wednesday, weather permitting. And that you can bank on in Denver. Disc Extreme and Omega hopefully.

"150 grains Triple 7 pellets is allowed in your Omega, Encores, Knight Extremes, Elites, etc."

Add the Apex and Wolverine 209 to the list.

Also, the Austin Halleck 320/420 is rated for use with 150gr black powder/ black powder substitute by volume even showing a picture of loose 777!

sheephunterab · « **Reply #20 on:** January 15, 2004, 06:54:30 PM »

Quote

With what weight bullet? It certainly won't happen with a 348gr Powerbelt. I can't see it being that much difference with a 250gr Shockwave either. EITHER WAY, I WILL report the exact velocity of each(250gr Shockwave with 3 Pyrodex pellets, 3 777 pellets, 120gr 777) Sunday or Wednesday, weather permitting. And that you can bank on in Denver. Disc Extreme and Omega hopefully.

That was with a 250-grain SST through a chrono. No bull! I've never shot shot 3 T7 pellets so can't comment but know for certain about three pyro pellets versus 120 grains of T7 powder. The three Pyro pellets are markedly faster just as three Puyro pellets are 250 fps faster than 150 grains of loose Pyro. Hey, if you don't believe me try it yourself but out of the Omega this is the way it is, at least up here in Canada. Pellets provide far better velocities than loose powder, at least with regular Pyrodex.

sheephunterab · « **Reply #21 on:** January 15, 2004, 06:57:50 PM »

Quote

If it is T 7 FFFg, it will be very close. The only way to know exactly is to try it yourself, your gun. Knight can give you the specifics on what is allowed by exact gun and bullet.

Come on Randy, you know better than that, or maybe you don't. The two would not even be close. Maybe you need some new shooting glasses to read that chrony.

sheephunterab · « **Reply #22 on:** January 15, 2004, 07:00:51 PM »

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Then you just have not asked. 150 grains Triple 7 pellets is allowed in your Omega, Encores, Knight Extremes, Elites, etc.

And where did you see this info....certainly not on the Hodgdon web site.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #23 on:** January 15, 2004, 07:13:07 PM »

Thompson / Center Arms.

sheephunterab · « **Reply #24 on:** January 15, 2004, 07:18:18 PM »

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Thompson / Center Arms.

Okay, now I am confused. Aren't you the one that keeps spouting the danger of exceeeding Hodgdon recommendations?

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #25 on:** January 15, 2004, 07:31:37 PM »

That would be my evil twin, the guy who used to play the organ for "Yes."

I really don't think you are confused-- Hodgdon allows three 50 gr. Pyrodex pellets in nothing, yet that is precisely what you are doing in your Omega. We both know why.

sheephunterab · « **Reply #26 on:** January 15, 2004, 07:41:38 PM »

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Then you just have not asked. 150 grains Triple 7 pellets is allowed in your Omega, Encores, Knight Extremes, Elites, etc

Where did you find this info?

?

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #27 on:** January 15, 2004, 07:48:26 PM »

T/C and Knight directly.

sheephunterab · « **Reply #28 on:** January 15, 2004, 07:51:52 PM »

Quote

T/C and Knight directly.

I know people at both of these companies but don't know anyone named "directly". Is this info they make available to the public or just magicians with insomnia?

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #29 on:** January 15, 2004, 07:54:23 PM »

Anybody who calls and asks. Many of the manuals do not mention it, as they were written prior to the introduction of T 7 pellets-- still, less than a year old.