Author Topic: Bullet obturation.  (Read 1192 times)

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Offline greenrivers

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Bullet obturation.
« on: December 03, 2011, 02:28:43 AM »
I have on several occasions heard bullet obturation discussed. I ask the question out of interest and ignorance, not arguement. Does obturation exist to a point that it actuall causes the bullet to fully or partiall conform to barrel dimensions?
 

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2011, 02:30:34 AM »
Lead more than jacketed. But yes esp softer alloys will for certain.

CW

http://www.laser-cast.com/files/Understanding_bullet_obturation.pdf
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Offline Ranch13

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2011, 04:17:25 AM »
What he said.
In the 1920's "sheeple" was a term coined by the National Socialist Party in Germany to describe people that would not vote for Hitler. In the 1930's they held Hitler as the only one that would bring pride back to Germany and bring the budget and economy back.....

Offline bilmac

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2011, 05:26:17 AM »
Yup just look at a recovered bullet. The groves in the bullet made by the barrel lands are clear and deep and you can usually see marks on the ridges in the bullet that were made by the grooves of the barrel.

Offline gunnut69

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2011, 12:05:41 PM »
Obturation is definately a reality. It can cause a rifle to shoot pretty well with an abnormal variation in the bore specifications as in revolvers set up to shoot both 22 LR ammo and 22 WMRF. The 22 LR uses a .222 nominal bullet while the Mag uses a .224. The soft lead of the LR bullet swages up to fill the oversized bore and still shoot pretty well. On the other hand obturation can cause havoc as in the case of a revolver with undersized throats in the cylinder. With jacketed bullet expecially the firing will cause the bullet to swage down to fit the smaller throat and then obturate to fill the larger bore. The jacket metal has a different spring back rate than the lead sore. This manipulation results in the core being loose in the jacket.. After the bullet exits the barrel and begins rotating around its center of mass instead of the center of form as in the bore, it will have problems. The center of mass will move as the core and jacket  move in relation to each other..
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Offline greenrivers

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2011, 01:44:04 AM »
Thank you for the attachment and really well done explanations. I had and do regularly try to examine fired bullets and note expansion, but had always thought the impact was causing expansion and deforming. As for sidewall markings the bullet to bore relationship. I have noted very shallow land grooves in jacketed bullets in the past. The formula of 480 X BHN could explain this. I would like to see a formula that indicates how much obturation takes place in a situation where lead cast are swagged by the throats to a slightly smaller size than the bore. This would normally be thought of as an inaccurate situation, but obturation should compensate? I had always considered the forcing cone to be the bore sizing instrument. Have I been looking at this wrong all this time?

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2011, 03:33:46 AM »
Proper dimentioned cylinder throats are tantamount to a revolvers accuracy. Then proper dia bullets for those throats make it a complete package in terms of accuracy.


The pressures that cause the bullet to size up will have dropped off by the time the bullets is in the bore. Remember the cyl gap, it bleeds off alot of pressure.

CW
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Offline greenrivers

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011, 01:40:28 AM »
That is where I become confused with the obturation theory. If properly sized throats and bullets are of importance, is that importance in sizing the bullet to the troat/bore or to the obturated bullet? What is the point of sizing a bullet prior to reloading if it is going to be resized by the throats? The throats as I have understood it, are to guide and center the bullet into the forcing cone. Not act as sizing dies. Is this where I am wrong?
 
 
 
 
 

Offline Dee

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 02:29:12 AM »
The old soft lead, "hollow base wadcutter" in 38 special was all about expanding to fit the bore, and accuracy.
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Offline necchi

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011, 04:20:43 AM »
What is the point of sizing a bullet prior to reloading if it is going to be resized by the throats?

Simply put, Consistancy.
found elsewhere

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2011, 05:52:39 AM »
Your thinking is correct. Properly sized bullets and throats as all part of the equation.

Use the wrong one and accuracy suffers. 

CW
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Offline anachronism

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 08:58:55 AM »
We beat this topic to death on Verals forum. You might look at this:


http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,227037.0.html





Offline greenrivers

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2011, 09:12:55 AM »
I agree with the soft hollow based bullets and there skirts being used to seal oversized bores. The practice is still in use to some degree and is evidence of obturation I suppose. I wonder though about even a 12 BHN expanding by any substantial amount and was hoping that someone could give me evidence. There are times when putting it to use would be beneficial. As mentioned a large percentage of the pressure is bleed off by the barrel/cylinder gap and what if any takes place in the bore is the question.

Offline BAGTIC

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 05:31:47 PM »
It depends on gun, pressure levels, etc.  For example in a .357 Magnum loaded with a 158 grain bullet peak pressure is already reached by the time the base of the bullet has reached the mouth of the case. Bullet expansion is already well in progress before the base passes through the throat. It is quite possible that the bullet base is first sized to the thoat diameter. As the bullet enters the barrel it will encounter some resistance which should cause it to expand further until restrained by the bore and groove dimensions.. I have seen many spark photos over the years of bullets being fired from revolvers with the barrels removed. It is quite apparent that even in low pressure cartridges like the .45 Colt that the bullet nose has slumped and the bullet shortened from the Gees of acceleration alone. If the bullet is shortening there must also be expansion.
Wouldn't it make more sense to make sure the bullet was large enough diameter to completely fil the bore, with or without expansion, and then to make the chamber throat fit the bullet. Instead we want to make the bullet fit the throat and the bore. A tough job especially if the throat is smaller than the bore. One of the original advantages of breechloaders over muzzleloaders was the ability to use bullets larger than bore size in order to get a tight fit. In muzzleloaders it was necessary to depend on the bullet bumping up to fit the barrel as it had to be smaller to be easily loaded. Not so with breechloaders. Nonetheless it appears that the old ways are, for some people, hard to give up.
In addition to using enough gun it also makes sense to use enough bullet.

Offline greenrivers

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2011, 03:56:14 AM »
You make several good points. The muzleloaders being one. I will go back and read the attachment posts instead of rehashing this. Sorry, had been looking for it but in the wrong places. Thanks guys.

Offline Ranch13

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 04:01:22 AM »
greenrivers, you asked about 12bhn bullets. While not handgun related, I can tell you that when shooting paper patch bullets patched to bore diameter, those slugs will expand enough to get good rifling engraving. Even #2 alloy will obturate.
In the 1920's "sheeple" was a term coined by the National Socialist Party in Germany to describe people that would not vote for Hitler. In the 1930's they held Hitler as the only one that would bring pride back to Germany and bring the budget and economy back.....

Offline greenrivers

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Re: Bullet obturation.
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2011, 04:23:20 AM »
A while back a member had recomended that I read a specific book on this subject. I had not forgoten it but not had time to get through the ones neatly stacked and waiting for me! Just finished reading the posts and seems there are a couple of camps. Good stuff to contemplate. Thanks for the further enlightenment guys.