Author Topic: Latch - Shelf fitting  (Read 1074 times)

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Offline mdwest

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Latch - Shelf fitting
« on: December 03, 2011, 04:23:24 AM »
Im trying to assemble a new Handi and am running into a bit of a problem...
 
the barrel I have isnt locking up to the frame..
 
it appears that everything is ok in terms of fit.. no gap between the frame and the breech face.. no wobble left or right.. not too loose.. not too tight..
 
but the latch isnt catching the shelf.. the barrel isnt locking into place..
 
I tried it on 3 different frames.. same situation in all three cases..
 
I read the barrel fitting section in the FAQ's.. but am having difficulty making head or tails of how I should go about "fixing" this particular problem..
 
can someone explain this process to me in very simplistic terms? maybe there are some pictures/video out there I could look at?
 
Thanks!

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2011, 04:55:49 AM »
Look at your barrel from the side. I vision it in the receiver in the closed position. the latch pivots rearward on its pin as the button is depressed.

I am assuming the shelf on the barrel is too tall. ( as long as your certain it's fully and completely closed in the receiver) the latch is held open by the barrel shelf.   This can be proven by the now very loose /lo button next to the hammer when attempting to latch barrel.

You will likely need to remove some material fRom the shelf.  Make triple sure nothing else is keeping the barrel from fully closing. Before beginning.

CW
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2011, 05:09:22 AM »
What CW said, be sure there's absolutely no gap between the standing breech and the barrel as viewed from the side or checked with a feeler guage blade, you might need to remove a little from the barrel face to allow the barrel to settle into the frame the last little bit, an uneven barrel face can appear to be tight to the frame when in reality it just has a high spot that prevents it from closing completely, same thing for imperfections on the standing breech(frame).

Tim
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Offline gendoc

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2011, 05:47:23 AM »
yep. you can wittle away at tha latch shelf and tha barrel face can be tha problem.
then you have wrecked tha barrel  :o
 
i have seen several times an un-even face and have seen more attempts to correct it by shave'n (file'n) tha shelf............then its time to start over witha new barrel. sure some folks can make it work ::) , but not me.
good luck ;)
 
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2011, 08:12:56 AM »
Anyone can make mistakes fitting a barrel including H&R, I've corrected several misfitted factory fitted barrels on new and used H&Rs that I've bought, it ain't rocket science,  if you take the time to read the info on barrel fitting in the FAQs, it's not that hard to fit a barrel. Knowing how to not ruin one is explained in the FAQs, what to do and not to do and in the right order, the old addage "measure twice, cut once" is good advice, go slow and check often is the mantra of barrel fitting and any other home gunsmithing for that matter.  ;) If a fella isn't confident in his/her own skills, there's always the option of sending it to H&R for repair/fitting.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Dinny

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2011, 08:14:16 AM »
Is it feasible to disassemble the receiver and take material off the bottom of the latch itself? I wouldn't want to do this if multiple barrels are fitted to the receiver, but wouldn't it work for just one barrel that needs some adjusting? This obviously is for those instances where everything else has been checked twice and the only solution is to remove material.


Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
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Offline gendoc

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2011, 08:27:05 AM »
yep, i jus too wo-out and olt ta try this, thatsa why my son was created, to take up my
after-thoughts....... and he does quite excellent at that task ;)
ya don't mention "shim","build-up", or "take it down" in his environment... cus he
does his majic to these handi's as if it were in his hands !!!!!!!!!!!
some cud call it...tha jar head effect...........
we here in tha swamp call it..........the right way ;)
send it back in if its any less than perfect, they will make it right..... ;D
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2011, 08:28:44 AM »
Is it feasible to disassemble the receiver and take material off the bottom of the latch itself? I wouldn't want to do this if multiple barrels are fitted to the receiver, but wouldn't it work for just one barrel that needs some adjusting? This obviously is for those instances where everything else has been checked twice and the only solution is to remove material.


Thanks, Dinny

The latch is a hardened part, if it's just surface hardened, removing material may result in going thru the  hardening then it would wear quickly resulting in the need to be replaced.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline mdwest

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2011, 08:35:38 AM »
some photos of what I am looking at:
 
what the frame looks like with no barrel attached..
 

 
 
what the frame looks like with the factory barrel attached:
 

 
and what the frame looks like with the barrel that is not locking up attached
 

 
 
I see distinct differences in how high the release is sitting with each of the barrels.. and also see a distinct difference in how much space is left at the top of the frame with the factory barrel vs. how much space is left with the new barrel..
 
Does this indicate to anyone if they might think the issue is with the latch/shelf or if the barrel face...
 
my initial thoughts were it was probably the latch/shelf...
 
but after looking at how deeply the barrel is seating (vs how deeply the factory barrel seats).. Im now starting to think it might be the barrel face..
 
just dont want to start filing down (even gently) on the wrong part if not necessary..
 
Im thinking that taking a sharpie marker to it might be the next step.. maybe I can find out if there is a high point or not (I cant find one visible to the naked eye on the barrel face)...
 
 

Offline Dinny

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2011, 08:37:54 AM »
The latch is a hardened part, if it's just surface hardened, removing material may result in going thru the  hardening then it would wear quickly resulting in the need to be replaced.

Tim


 Would it work after the hardening was removed and reapplied like we do for the hammer mods? To me it just seems easier to get the latch smoothed to a shorter length than the latch shelf. I have a real difficult time keeping the file and stone square and true. Also, it's cheaper to replace a latch than a barrel.


Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2011, 08:44:16 AM »
As stated in the barrel fitting instructions, don't do any serious filing/stoning on the barrel face if a factory round is flush with the barrel face, you'll creat negative headspace and won't be able to close the action. But most all H&R barrels have a little wiggle room in headspace which allows the barrel face to be corrected. It's easily corrected by flat filing/stoning the barrel face, you'll immediately see the high spots if it's uneven as it removes the bluing, you can use the black marker again to see how much material you're removing and keep the face flat, not rounding the edges. Yours sounds like a perfect candidate for sending to Brian for fitting tho if you don't want to work with it. ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2011, 08:50:17 AM »
The latch is a hardened part, if it's just surface hardened, removing material may result in going thru the  hardening then it would wear quickly resulting in the need to be replaced.

Tim


 Would it work after the hardening was removed and reapplied like we do for the hammer mods? To me it just seems easier to get the latch smoothed to a shorter length than the latch shelf. I have a real difficult time keeping the file and stone square and true. Also, it's cheaper to replace a latch than a barrel.


Thanks, Dinny

Dunno, have never tried it, I've never had a problem keeping the latch shelf true using a stone, it just takes a while to get there if much material has to be removed. H&R does have longer latches if they're needed to fit loose barrels likely caused by the shelf wearing, dunno if they have short latches for an instance like this, although I think the barrel face is the problem as shown in mdwest's pics.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2011, 09:07:07 AM »
Looking at the pics MDwest, I can see right off the second one the barrel is not sitting properly.

In the first pic shows good fit barrel to the rec at the top, behind the scope mount. See the step? That's good.  I see no to very little step in second pic. Not so good!  This tells me that barrel is sitting high and you need to find where it's touching.  To get it like the first pic.

CW
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Offline mdwest

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2011, 09:08:29 AM »
Im almost certain its the barrel face now... here are a couple of pics of two barrels on a frame that doesnt have a latch installed.. same problem exists.. the "old" barrel seats more deeply.. the "new" barrel is sitting more shallow in the frame..
 
 
old barrel:
 

 
new barrel:
 

 
I also dropped a factory round into two different barrels of the same caliber (.44 mag).. I noticed in the barrel that locks up properly (and shoots extremely well) that the bullet has quite a bit less headspace (enough that it is visible to the nake eye without measuring)...
 
 

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2011, 09:14:37 AM »
Your pic also shows the release sitting lo as if depressed. This is what I was telling you in first post. The latch is being held back because the shelf is too high. We now know its too high because the whole barrel is to high in the receiver.
Which is what I was concerned with in my first post.

CW
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Offline mdwest

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2011, 09:47:56 AM »
ok.. last set of pics Ill bore you guys with...
 
here are before and after pics... I marked up the barrel face, the entire lug section, and the bottom of the barrel where it is attached to the lug.. then opened and closed the action firmly 20 times.. this is where the marker rubbed off (metal on metal contact).. its fairly limited on the lug surfaces.. and non existent on the bottom of the barrel.. but the lower half of the barrel face is apparently making contact in some places while the top half doesnt appear to be rubbing..
 
barrel face before:
 

 
barrel face after:
 

 
left side of lug before:
 

 
left side after:
 

 
right side before:
 

 
right side after:
 

 
any last thoughts?
 
If I am understanding you cwlongshot, you think the latch is depressed because the barrel is too high in the frame.. and this means I need to figure out how to get the barrel lower into the frame, and not necessarily be concerned that the shelf itself is the problem? Its hard to see in the pic, but the marker was rubbed off of the lip of the shelf when I closed it in the action several times..
 

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2011, 10:16:40 AM »
YES
 
Once you get the barrel sitting in the frame properly and completely you can begin to fit the shelf and latch.  If you where to fit now, for one the firing pin would be off center and FTF's would be likely. Besides the fact that the barrel is not completely closed...
 
Look at the welds at the barrel lug and the receiver sides. Also look at the bottom of the barrel breech for contact there with the receiver. If nothing is found, you can carefully and slowly remove a tiny bit at a time form the hinge cut on the barrel to allow the barrel to sit back farther in the receiver and completely close.
 
CW
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Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline mdwest

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2011, 10:49:46 AM »
you guys have been a huge help... I think I understand barrel fitting a whole lot better now...
 
I just went back and re-read the beginner and the advanced bbl fitting instructions in the FAQ's and they make more sense to me now..
 
 
One last question and I think I am ready to give this a whirl..
 
Tim (or anyone that knows).. I read in the FAQ's that you used a drill bit wrapped in emory to deepen the pivot point.. I just laid a 3/8" drill bit in mine to check the fit, and it seems pretty snug, but has a tiny bit of wiggle room where I could probably get a wrap or two of fine emory paper around it... is this the size bit you used? I was also thinking a piece of 3/8" bar stock might work as opposed to the drill bit (kinda scared of those cutting surfaces on the drill bit)..
 
Thoughts?
 

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2011, 12:17:02 PM »
Either is fine.
Just be sure to Mark it up with dykem or a marker so you know for removing material evenly.

CW
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Offline mdwest

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2011, 04:10:42 PM »
a serious big THANK YOU to each of you for all the help...
 
 
the rifle locks up tight as a drum now..
 
also checked the firing pin strike with an empty case.. pin is hitting dead center of the primer..
 
Ill take it to the range on monday or tuesday to check it out, and make absolutely sure its working right..
 
but for now.. it looks like my first barrel fitting was a big success!
 
Thanks again! You guys are great!
 
 

Offline Spanky

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2011, 04:13:26 PM »
Great job Dave! I'm bettin' there's gonna be a real happy 12 yr. old this CHRISTmas. That barrel is a VERY good shooter and should only get better as it get's broken in.
 
 
 
Spanky

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2011, 11:32:20 PM »
a serious big THANK YOU to each of you for all the help...
 
 
the rifle locks up tight as a drum now..
 
also checked the firing pin strike with an empty case.. pin is hitting dead center of the primer..
 
Ill take it to the range on monday or tuesday to check it out, and make absolutely sure its working right..
 
but for now.. it looks like my first barrel fitting was a big success!
 
Thanks again! You guys are great!

GREAT NEWS!!!
 
Glad we where able to help!
 
Merry Christmas,
 CW
"Pay heed to the man who carries a single shot rifle, he likely knows how to use it."

NRA LIFE Member 
Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Jimbo47

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2011, 02:03:17 AM »
Glad to see you got it to fit properly!  ;)
 
One rule of thumb I would recommend, and I've fitted several barrels, and although I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means, but my rule is never ever mess with a receiver trying to get a barrel to fit.  I know you didn't do this, but this is for anyone else trying to fit one.  Doing so will only open a whole new can of worms.   For one, the receiver has already had a barrel fit to it, and that original barrel should you still own it, will then not fit properly, and altering the receiver will mean you may continue to have difficulty trying to fit another additional barrel to that receiver without replacing parts you messed up, and you can cause headaches to the next guy who might own that receiver should you sell it.
 
Rather than getting to the point of attacking the receiver, one might consider sending it in to have it factory fitted like Tim suggest, as it doesn't cost that much to have it done right.

 
In most cases that I've found it's number one, the hinge pin radius on the barrel lug, just as you found, and once you get the barrel to seat down all the way and lock up, then you can play with the latch to make sure it locks up evenly, and then it may require you hit the latch shelf and maybe the breech face on the barrel lightly with a stone also, but that is usually only after firing a few rounds and if you start getting some consistent pop opens with a dry, oil free latch shelf.
 
Again glad to see you got it fitted, and for some reason I can see a lot more used barrels in your future!  ;D
 
My culled down Handi's are the 45-70, and then I have a few others to keep it company...357 Mag/Max. .45 LC/.454 Casull Carbine, .243 Ultra, and 20 gauge Tracker II.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2011, 05:07:25 AM »
a serious big THANK YOU to each of you for all the help...
 
 
the rifle locks up tight as a drum now..
 
also checked the firing pin strike with an empty case.. pin is hitting dead center of the primer..
 
Ill take it to the range on monday or tuesday to check it out, and make absolutely sure its working right..
 
but for now.. it looks like my first barrel fitting was a big success!
 
Thanks again! You guys are great!

Way to stick to it, looking forward to your range report.  ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline mdwest

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2011, 09:16:29 AM »
Great job Dave! I'm bettin' there's gonna be a real happy 12 yr. old this CHRISTmas. That barrel is a VERY good shooter and should only get better as it get's broken in.

He is really going to be excited.. thanks again for selling it!.. this rifle will make his Christmas...
 
Now that my confidence is up (3 trigger jobs and 1 barrel fitting on handis in the past few months), I think Im going to go pawn shopping again soon and try to pick up another old $60 H&R shotgun that I can breathe a new life into..

Im probably enjoying tinkering as much as I have enjoyed shooting them  ;D

Offline gendoc

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2011, 11:17:44 AM »
we are glad ya got it like ya want it.... long as its safe, then yall enjoy !!!!!!!!!!
thats what this place is about ;D
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline mdwest

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2011, 11:42:57 AM »
Range Report:

The newly fitted handi shoots great.

Put about 10 rounds of .44 special through it just to see if I was going to have any problems and to initially get it on paper at 25 yards... No issues at all..

Then switched over to winchester white box .44 magnums and finished sighting it in at 100 yards...

Went bang every time the trigger was pulled.. No problems locking up.. And no problems popping open...

Is keeping about 1.5" groups at 100 yards as well...

Should make an excellent little deer rifle for my nephew (and a great Christmas gift!)

Thanks again to all those that helped!


Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2011, 11:53:28 AM »
Don't ya just love it when a plan comes together!!  ;D

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Spanky

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2011, 01:26:59 PM »
Try some 240gr. XTP's over H110 and see how she shoots. ;)  You'll be smiling for sure. ;D
 
 
 
Spanky

Offline mdwest

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Re: Latch - Shelf fitting
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2011, 04:51:44 AM »
Will do Spanky..
 
I havent reloaded since the mid 90's.. but have decided to start again (I gotta go dig out that old RCBS rock-chucker that Ive had packed away for 15 years now...).. Between the 2 .44 mags and the .45-70 handi's I just built.. and all the 5.56 and 9mm shooting Ive been doing lately.. going to the range has gotten expensive!