Author Topic: .358 Winchester Short Neck (Read 10556 times)

steve@357maximum.com · « **on:** December 03, 2011, 12:52:55 PM »

Has anyone experimented with trimming the neck down on the .358 Winchester for a 2012 deer round? This seems like a simple and economical approach for a longer range deer rifle. A guy that Mike Bellm mentions on his site, will rebore a .308 to .358 for $225-250 including return shipping. I spoke with him (Jesse Ocumpaugh/JES Rifle Reboring) and his price includes finishing the chamber, headspacing and crowning. Trimming the neck reduces it from .365" to .150" which seems short, but I often seat bullets out that only engage .125" of necks on long throated chambers and have good luck with accuracy. In fact the rifle I'm considering reboring is a Remington ADL Varmint .308. It has a long throat where I have to seat the bullets way out but the rifle will shoot Sierra 175 grain Match Kings into .600-.700" groups at 100 yards for 5 shots.

A friend of mine has done this with a sporter weight rifle but has not done much with load development yet. Initial tests look promising.

Any input would be greatly appreciate - Steve

Dinny · « **Reply #1 on:** December 03, 2011, 02:31:13 PM »

In short, Yes! Please send me an email.

Thanks, Dinny

Hank in Indiana · « **Reply #2 on:** December 05, 2011, 03:03:25 AM »

I'm sure it will work, I just don't know how well. I cut a 35 rem to 1.8" It worked well. The only problem was with the crimp. I cut off a 38 special crimp die to expose .175" of neck before the roll crimp. This solved the crimp problem. I think that it would great for a cartridge that you only have to load for deer only. Anything else the 358 is legal for. I use the 35 rem for coyote, squirrel, and varmints and only have to shorten if I use it to deer hunt.

parson48 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 06, 2011, 07:08:31 AM »

I just posted a question on the Savage board about this very thing. I have a Savage 110 in .243 that I could put a .358 barrel on for around $200. I'm certainly interested in any and all thoughts and info on this possibility.

cptmclark · « **Reply #4 on:** December 23, 2011, 12:46:40 PM »

Thanks for letting me put in my 2 cents worth, in this case my opinion. I hunt in southern Indiana, lightly populated areas, and want to use my high powered rifles. Of course I can't do that, due to laws that we may disagree about. Nevertheless, I have a favorite place to hunt where I often see nice critters to shoot (usually the best ones) out at 220 to 350 yards. I guess I don't really care that most Indiana deer are taken at slug distances, I want to enjoy my hobby of making very accurate rifles and ammo and getting to use it hunting. That's just me, and I am obviously willing to abide by the law or I would be in the record books repeatedly.
I just set up a friend in a Rock River 458 SOCOM, which is Indiana legal. Not to deter any R and D (my favorite pastime) but they are guaranteed to hold within 1.5 MOA (good enough, but ofter better), and hurl a 300 grain bullet at about 1900 fps accurately. Larger bullets also work well. Still, although he has the pleasure of not having to shoot a "shotgun" at big game, that is still not a lot better than the best slug guns will do (best ones 2 MOA up to and a bit beyond 150 yards). Still, the trajectory and long range energy are not the best.
I want to shoot my favorite 308 or 30-06, and so be able to be proud of my shooting and hunting (different from just hunting skills, for which I use a bow), and enjoy the fruits of my high power competition training and marksmanship skills which don't come easily and which are not retained easily. I can't do that, due to the local law. But I can, and safely, shoot the cartridge with the very best trajectory and range that law will allow. I'm willing to accept what is an asinine (in my opinion) law, and do the best I can within the law.
If you think my area of hunting is less safe that the same terrain and population density as in other states, then you will disagree and I encourage you to vote accordingly. If spears were all that were allowed, I'd still hunt, and we all would be proud of our better bucks. I really hope someone or many will respond to this message with your thoughs, whether you agree or disagree. I am eager to learn.
Mike
Freedom through superior firepower $:-\$

mikewilson · « **Reply #5 on:** December 24, 2011, 11:26:48 AM »

i have been experimenting with the 358 short. i first necked up some 308 cases and the shortened the necks but after loading them they would not chamber. the necks were to thick. i do not have anything to reduce neck thickness so i took some 243 brass and kept necking it up till i got to 358. it streched the brass out enough to reduce the neck thickness and it chambered fine. i bought a used barrel and had no idea if it shot well or not. i loaded some unmodified 358 cases to see if the barrel would group well before i tried the short ones. i shot some weak 358 shorts to get the scope on paper and to see if i was in the ballpark for powder charge. the first group out of the barrrel with the 358 long case was believe it or not .362 for 3 shots. glad i am experimenting with the 358 short or this project would not be any fun. i mean get a new barrel screw it on the gun load up some ammo for a round that i have never loaded for and the first group is .362. 3 shot load development and your done! all the 358 short and the long case loads used the same bullet 225 sgk with varget powder. i would say the 100.00 barrel i bought is a shooter with the unmodified case. i tried 6 different 358 short loads with the same bullet and the same powder but with increasing powder charges. they all shot between 1.6 to 2.4 inch groups. looks like the bullet does not like the long jump. could be i havent found the right charge also. the case hods 9 percent less powder than the unmodified case so thats where i started and kept working up. will keep trying different things and see what happens

Lon371 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 24, 2011, 03:48:25 PM »

Mikewilson
Could you maybe have the chamber end trimmed, and a thread or two added. Then have the chamber cut to match your short round?

When you loaded your short rounds, did you make your overall length same as original or is it also shorter?

Lonny

mikewilson · « **Reply #7 on:** December 25, 2011, 08:16:18 AM »

yes im sure i could set the barrel back a bit and trim my dies. for now im going to try some longer bullets to try and get closer to the lands. i could not seat the bullets out any farther in the short cases. ive only got .225 of the bullet in the case now, oal at 2.7 with the 358 unmodified case at i think was 2.77 with the sgk

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #8 on:** December 25, 2011, 12:58:53 PM »

Mike,

I am curious why you don't just seat the current bullet you are working with out to the same OAL of your standard case that shot well for you? It sounds like you are only .070" short if I understand you correctly. If you currently have .225" in the neck you should still end up with .155" in the case. When I do the math, you should only have .150" of neck to deal with anyway. The .308 I am considering reboring, has a long throat. I have shot many sub 1 inch 5 shot groups with no more that .125" of neck engagement. I do have to single load with this condition but that does not bother me, even in a Indiana deer hunting rifle.

One day this week, I am going to my friends 200 yd range to help him shoot and develop loads for his Savage .358 Win. I hope to learn more about it then.

Thanks for your input and I would be very interested in hearing more on your future results.

Steve

mikewilson · « **Reply #9 on:** December 25, 2011, 01:24:42 PM »

need to go remeasure. your right it does sound like i could seat the bulley out farther but sure i cant that much. heres a pic

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #10 on:** December 26, 2011, 12:54:53 AM »

Mike,
One oversight I made was that the boat tail section of the bullet will not make contact with the neck. With your .225" bullet-in-case dimension, that tapered section of the bullet base is probably past the bottom of the neck. As you increase O.A.L the tapered section will eventually be in the neck where it will not be supported.
Steve

parson48 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:36:46 AM »

Looking at Sierra's line of bullets, the flat base pro-hunter should load flush with the base of the neck and not diminish case capacity. Not sure where it would be in the neck of an untrimmed .358 case.

I'm watching mikewilson's posted progress with much interest as I have been considering this very thing since Indiana started discussing increasing legal case length.

Thanks for posting Mike.

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #12 on:** December 27, 2011, 06:35:50 AM »

Parson48,

That is a good point on the Sierra bullets. If OAL became an issue with the short case, the Pro-Hunter would allow some additional O.A.L.

I shot with my friend yesterday who has the .358 Savage Sporter. His short neck loads seemed to shoot as well as the standard neck loads. In his rifle, he was able to seat a Hornady 200 Spire Point to within .025" of the lands and still grip the bullet along the entire .150" of neck.

I was convinced enough to move forward with my own rifle. I will be sending my Remington .308 700 ADL Varmint out to Jesse Ocumpaugh (JES Rifle Reboring), in Oregon to have the barrel opened up to .358 Win.

Initially I will be concentrating on the Speer 180 and the Hornady 200. Although they are expensive, I have heard a lot of good things about the Nosler Accubond 225 and I will eventually try them. When I ran the trajectories of the Nosler 225 and the Speer 180, they almost overlayed exactly out too 300 yards. Even though the Nosler has a a higher B.C. the Speer can be driven about 300 fps faster which made it a wash in regard to trajectory, but of course the Nosler had more down range energry. My initial thoughts are the 180's will be more than enough for Indiana whitetails.

Steve

parson48 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 27, 2011, 09:43:02 AM »

For those who are doing this, is anyone finding concentricity to be an issue with such a short neck? I know that they sell gauges, but they seem to be pretty pricey.

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #14 on:** January 30, 2012, 01:13:15 PM »

I wanted to give an update on my .358 Winchester project. I received my Remington 700 ADL Varmint 26" rifle back from JES Reboring. Absolutely no complaints there. Turn around was within 2 weeks and I'm very happy with the rifle. I had my .308 rebored to .358, 4 grooves and 1:14 twist. I ran my .308 cases thru Redding .358 dies and loaded up some test rounds with the full length necks for a first round of testing. I shot nine 5-shot groups and one 4-shot group. With perfect wind and light conditions and 15 degree temps. Worse group was 1.690" and the best group was .460". I'm only getting started but so far the best groups came from Hornady 200 gr. FTX bullets. The .460" was a 4-shot group and the 5-shot group measured .550" center to center.

Since this range test, I have trimmed my cases to 1.800" to meet the IN 2012 requirement. I have more loads ready but have been waiting for a good weekend test day. My friend Bill, tried the Hornady 200 gr. FTX bullets in his Savage Sporter with the 1.800" case length and 100 yard 3-shot groups were averaging under an inch for him. So far, this is the most accurate bullet in his rifle too.

It appears that the .358 will shoot well with the short neck. I will keep you posted when I try some loads with the short necked cases.

Steve

Lon371 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 30, 2012, 01:52:36 PM »

Steve
Thanks for the update. Does your buddy know what velocity he was running at?

Lonny

jy951 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 30, 2012, 03:51:07 PM »

Thanks for your info on this Steve. I've been sitting on the sidelines on this. Been thinking about keeping it simple and just getting and encore barrel made. Sounds like the short neck rounds should shoot good enough.

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #17 on:** January 30, 2012, 11:44:13 PM »

Lonny,
I'm not sure what his velocity was. When I shoot my short neck loads very soon, I will check speeds with my chronograph. With my 26" barrel, I would expect to achieve 2600-2700 fps. I'll be sure and let you know when I have some data.
Steve

broom_jm · « **Reply #18 on:** February 02, 2012, 09:37:46 AM »

Steve,

I've been following this project with much fascination. I'm sure you'll be able to find loads that will work well in the shortened 358 Winchester. One question I had is are you going to the try the 180gr TTSX from Barnes or the new 200gr Accubond? The FTX is a good bullet and since it is loaded in full-length 356 and 358 cases, you know it will work just fine in a shortened version of them.

I'm planning to do roughly the same thing, but with a 35 Remington. My wife wants a rifle she can hunt with next fall that will reach out to 200 yards but not knock the snot out of her. I figure a 35 Remington will be about right.

Good luck and keep us informed of your progress!

Jason

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #19 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:32:28 AM »

Jason,

I am including the Barnes 180 TTSX in my trials. With the full length cases I shot (2) 5-shot groups with (2) different powders. The groups measured 1.690" - 1.556" - 1.500" - .770". This was .050" off the lands per Barnes suggestion. I am going to try them in the short cases too. The jump to the lands will be increased quite a bit in my rifle with the 1.800" case. I did not realize Nosler was making a 200 gr. Accubond. I may look into that one as I prefer not to shoot over 200 grains if possible. I will tell you, I have a little bit of a problem spending close to a dollar a piece for a bullet to shoot whitetail deer. When the 200 FTX shot so well I thought that may be the one. Even though the wind will be a bit strong, I plan on testing this Saturday with the short neck cases. I'll report my results.

I think the .35 Remington is a good choice for your wife. A good round with not so much recoil. Kind of like a heavy .357 Maximum with much lower pressures. My best buck to date was with a .35 Remington in a 14" Contender. That was many years ago but is what really got me interested in the Hornady 180 SSP. As you know, I really like this bullet in the .357 Maximum.

Best Regards,

Steve

broom_jm · « **Reply #20 on:** February 02, 2012, 12:58:22 PM »

I guess I'm a little surprised the longish 180gr TTSX would be that far off the lands with the trimmed cases. If you seat it to the base of the short neck, how far off are you? I'm with you on the cost of these things being pretty steep. I'm hoping to use the 200gr FTX or 180gr SSP in the shortened 35 Remington, since they should both work pretty well at that velocity.

The ink isn't even dry on the press release for the 200gr AB's, but I'm betting they become pretty popular with the 358WSSM and WSM - 1.8" crowd. That might be the perfect bullet for the case capacity of those rounds?

Do you shoot at a private range for your load testing?

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #21 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:44:29 PM »

Jason,
In my rifle the 180 TTSX is approximately .180" of the lands in the short neck case with full neck contact. The SAAMI spec for the .358 Win. is long, mine seems to be a bit longer. The first short neck testing should be interesting. Hopefully, not a disaster.

I shoot at the local Izaak Walton for 100 yard shooting with some wind protection. Also, a friend of mine that I shoot with has his own 200 yard range.
Steve

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #22 on:** February 04, 2012, 01:18:27 PM »

I had an opportunity to test some short neck .358 Winchester loads today. The wind was quartering around 10 mph, which seemed to open up my groups slightly left to right. In all, I fired two 5-shot for 3 different loads at 100 yds with chronograph readings.

Hornady 200 gr. FTX @ 2326 fps group 1 = 1.587" group 2 = 1.488"
Hornady 200 gr. FTX @ 2449 fps group 1 = 1.343" group 2 = 1.079"
Barnes 180 gr. TTSX @ 2594 fps group 1 = 1.260" group 2 = .860"

The Hornady 200 FTX groups opened up from the full length cases (.150" off lands)
The Barnes 180 TTSX shot as well or slightly better. (.180" off lands)

According to the manufacturers data, I can push the Barnes about another 180 fps but around 2450 fps may be it for the FTX. I have a long way to go in experimenting, but I do believe the short neck .358 Winchester case will provide adequate accuracy for 200-300 yard shots on whitetail deer.

Steve

Lon371 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 04, 2012, 01:34:11 PM »

Keep it up and I am going to get in trouble

. Thanks for your efforts Steve.

Lonny

Hank in Indiana · « **Reply #24 on:** February 05, 2012, 01:29:04 AM »

Good report Steve. I've been looking for deal on a 358 for a year and a half and wondering what results to expect. I did find a 35 rem. The results were similar but you are about 500 fps faster. If I find a 358 I'll PM you for more detailed load info. Thanks Hank

parson48 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 06, 2012, 06:22:59 AM »

Appreciate the range report Steve. I'm contemplating a .358 barrel for my Savage. I've given thought to the .358 Hoosier, but would rather go this route than get into the wildcat rounds.

Are you having any difficulty in keeping the bullets concentric in these short necks?

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #26 on:** February 06, 2012, 09:51:12 AM »

parson48,
I do not have the gauges to check concentricity. In the past I have found as long as I get around .125" of full bullet diameter into the neck they shoot well. The .358 short neck is around .155". Ignition seems good too without a crimp. 10 shot groups have been running around 50 fps for extreme spread.
Steve

parson48 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 07, 2012, 02:45:42 AM »

Thanks Steve.

The accuracy you're getting makes me believe that they must be seating pretty straight. I was curious as to whether you were tweaking them after seating.

The gauges are a little pricey. But it seem that they may not be necessary with this round.

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #28 on:** February 19, 2012, 10:42:05 AM »

I was able to test the short neck .358 Win loads at 200 yards yesterday. Conditions were less than ideal with a gusty 10-15 mph crosswind. The only bullet that did not shoot well for me was the Speer 180. The others I tried were Speer 220, Nosler 225 Accubond, Barnes 180 TTSX and Hornady 200 FTX. Groups were generally 2.50" to 3.25" for 5 shots. Most of the groups had horizontal spread that was twice the vertical spread, which is what I would expect with that type of crosswind. It was difficult to say one bullet was better than the other from an accuracy point of view. I'm leaning toward the Hornady 200 FTX. I'm not sure the premium bullets offer enough to justify 2 to 2.5X the cost for shooting Indiana whitetails.
Steve

Lon371 · « **Reply #29 on:** February 19, 2012, 11:15:13 AM »

I have kind of started the process to getting my .358. Last week I picked up a Handi .308. Need to get with Brian56 and see if we can clear up a few issues. Also picked up a Rem 710 boltaction 30-06. Not sure I am going to use it for the .358, not many aftermarket goodies.

Lonny