Author Topic: .358 Winchester Short Neck (Read 10759 times)

tuco · « **Reply #30 on:** February 19, 2012, 11:42:18 AM »

Steve, what kind of drop did you get from say 100 to 200 yards? I am very interested in going this route for Indiana gun season also. Thanks.

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #31 on:** February 19, 2012, 01:52:05 PM »

Tuco,

It all depends on how the rifle is zeroed. A 100 yard zero would not take advantage of this cartridges ability. I will give you an example of what I would consider good sight in ranges with bullet trajectory out to 300 yards.

Hornady 200 FTX 2500 fps (ballistic coefficient .300)
100 yards +2.8"
150 yards +2.4"
200 yards 0.0 rifle zeroed at this yardage
250 yards -4.7"
300 yards -11.9"

With this same load if you zeroed at 100 yards it would shoot 5.6" low at 200 yards and 20.3 inches low at 300 yards.
If I knew for sure I would not shoot beyond 200 yards, I would zero my rifle at 175 yards and from 0-200 yards the bullet would be less than 2 inches from the line of sight.

I hope this helps,

Steve

broom_jm · « **Reply #32 on:** March 02, 2012, 10:55:08 AM »

Quote from: Lon371 on February 19, 2012, 11:15:13 AM

I have kind of started the process to getting my .358. Last week I picked up a Handi .308. Need to get with Brian56 and see if we can clear up a few issues. Also picked up a Rem 710 boltaction 30-06. Not sure I am going to use it for the .358, not many aftermarket goodies.

Lonny

Are you planning to have the H&R barrel bored out to 358" ?

Lon371 · « **Reply #33 on:** March 03, 2012, 03:37:55 AM »

Yes I am using a H&R .308 to build on.

Lonny

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #34 on:** March 04, 2012, 07:31:06 AM »

Today I completed another round of testing with the Indiana legal .358 Winchester short neck. I have come to the conclusion that the Hornady 200 grain FTX will be my bullet of choice for the 2012 Indiana Firearms Deer season. All along, this bullet has consistently produced good groups. I believe that the long bearing surface (greater than any other bullet I have tested) contributed to the accuracy. Using IMR-3031 and shooting three consecutive 3-shot groups at 100 yards this morning, I was able to average .875" center to center with an average velocity of 2520 fps with and extreme spread of 32 fps for 10 shots.

Regarding other discussions, on this site and others, I have seen people say that this bullet should not be driven faster than .35 Remington velocities. If you believe the manufacturer, Hornady, (and I do) this is just not true. They list the maximum recommended muzzle velocity at 2600 fps in the latest, 8th edition manual. Also, under the .358 Winchester load data page, and I quote, "The 200 grain FTX is the newest .358 bullet in the Hornady line up and is a great choice in the .358 Winchester. Its sleek profile delivers great down range performance and the flexible tip takes terminal ballistics to the next level.

Enough said.

Good Shooting,

Steve

Lon371 · « **Reply #35 on:** March 04, 2012, 12:00:46 PM »

Thanks Steve

And the shopping list continues

Lonny

Dinny · « **Reply #36 on:** March 05, 2012, 05:35:37 PM »

Steve,
That 200gr Hornady FTX is gonna get some extensive testing in my .356 Win too. I'm gonna be gone this hunting season, so I need you and others here to post your success stories with these new IN legal cartridges.

Thanks, Dinny

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #37 on:** March 09, 2012, 12:06:32 PM »

Dinny,

I think you will really like the 200 FTX in your .356. I took a few does with them in .357 Maximum with a muzzle velocity around 2040 fps. None went too far. I never recovered any bullets so I cannot comment on expansion. In my opinion, .357 Maximum and .358 Winchester define the high and low range for this bullet.

I will post my results for the 2012 deer season. It sounds like Lonny may have some feedback for you also.

I assume you will be away from IN for military service. Hopefully, you will be stateside. If you are in unfriendly territory, be safe and thanks again for your service.

Steve

broom_jm · « **Reply #38 on:** March 10, 2012, 03:09:03 AM »

I had some serious concerns about the 200gr FTX bullet being driven too hard and coming apart. I figured anything over ~2,600fps and it would be susceptible to blowing up. Then, a guy on another forum posted the following picture and it put all my fears to rest. I don't think any of the Indiana 'cats are going to drive it faster than 2,900fps MV, so I'm going to call it "good" for our needs.

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #39 on:** March 10, 2012, 11:56:10 AM »

Hi Jason,
Thanks for passing along the picture. Do you know what medium these bullets were shot into?
Thanks,
Steve

broom_jm · « **Reply #40 on:** March 10, 2012, 04:00:14 PM »

Steve,

I wish I could say those were fired into FBI-approved ballistic gelatin, but it was just milk jugs full of water, lined up in a row.

Here is the original thread. The picture is in post #18. Most of the thread is about handgun hunting and the picture was actually posted to show the 45 bullet.

http://www.shootersforum.com/handguns/77624-hand-gun-hunting.html

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #41 on:** March 24, 2012, 05:10:17 AM »

This is the last 5-shot 200yd group fired with the hunting load I will use in 2012 with the short neck .358 Win. Velocity is 2520 fps. It is capable of sub-m.o.a. from my Remington 700 ADL Varmint rifle. To get more velocity, I would have to focus on a ball powder like H-335 or Ramshot TAC. Since the IMR-3031 shoots so accurately at this velocity, I decided not to try to push it faster. I look forward to seeing how the 200 FTX performs on whitetail deer at this velocity. I believe that it will peform very well in the 2000-2600 fps range. Steve

jy951 · « **Reply #42 on:** June 28, 2012, 11:41:57 AM »

Steve, thanks to your trials and everyone else's input, I've taken the plunge. I picked up a new Ruger 77 in .358 Win. In my older age, I'm somewhat concerned about shoulder injury from the 500 S&W and like the thought of a fast follow up shot if necessary.

Hopefully this shoots well. I need to start gathering reloading stuff.

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #43 on:** July 18, 2012, 10:42:54 AM »

JY951,
I would be interested in hearing about your experience with the Ruger 77 in .358. A good friend of mine purchased one for the 2012 season. Although he has not tested it thoroughly yet, initially, things look pretty good.
Steve

jy951 · « **Reply #44 on:** July 18, 2012, 04:52:53 PM »

I'll post any results once I get started probably in a new thread. Can I just use .308 brass, trim and expand the neck to .358? Or do I need to buy .358 brass?

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #45 on:** July 19, 2012, 09:24:40 AM »

jy951,
Since I already had .308 brass, I just lubed it generously and sized it up to .358 without any issues. If I did not already have .308 brass, I would have just purchased .358.
Steve

jy951 · « **Reply #46 on:** August 23, 2012, 10:40:02 AM »

Steve:
Have you shot this with other loaded rounds in the magazine? Did the rounds stay the same oal, or did they expand or contract due to the recoil? I'm concerned that the loaded rounds in the magazine will not hold together due to the shortened neck.

Jim

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #47 on:** August 24, 2012, 11:45:13 AM »

Hi Jim,

That is a very good question. Unfortunately, I do not have the answer for you. I installed a single shot follower plate in my Remington 700 for ease of single shot loading. Honestly, I'm not even sure that my C.O.L. will allow magazine loading. While, a semi quick reload is an advantage of a bolt action, I am not overly concerned. I'll probably just put a stock web band to hold extra cartridges. I know, I'm not taking full advantage of my rifle, but one shot usually does the job for me.

Steve

jy951 · « **Reply #48 on:** September 02, 2012, 03:20:43 PM »

I bought a Lee factory crimp die that needs minor modification for the shortened cases that I'm going to try using. I really want to be able to use the magazine in case a follow up shot is necessary even though I've used single shots my entire life and never needed one.

Hank in Indiana · « **Reply #49 on:** September 06, 2012, 01:56:37 AM »

I picked up a Ruger 358 last thursday so keep posting your info please.

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #50 on:** September 28, 2012, 11:17:16 PM »

Hank,
Have you tested your new Ruger yet? I'm curious what's working the best for you and what load you plan on hunting with.
Steve

alan in ga · « **Reply #51 on:** September 28, 2012, 11:41:00 PM »

Wow, and I thought I liked the .358 Win!
I enjoyed owning a Ruger 77R in .358 for a dozen years. Reloaded for it, hunted whitetail with it, and just learned a LOT about the round. Too bad more true riflemen didn't 'discover' the usefulness of the round, most probably being strayed off track by reading the flawed description of it being a "short to mid range round."
I sold my .358 to a hunter that wanted to use it for his 'every year' elk hunts out west. The one thing I resolved to do for myself if I sold that rifle was that I would barrel another Ruger 77 to the same cartridge but use a heavier barrel contour than the super skinny Ruger factory barrel. I say Ruger should have used the same 'heavy sporter' taper they used with their .338 Win Mag barrels, would have made the .358 even nicer to shoot IMO.
Might have to get an order off to Pac Nor Super Match after reading your posts here! I won't be hindered by the case length law you have where you are though! [what an odd law]. I also want to find out what a top quality aftermarket barrel will do in .358 Win.....should be fun!

Hank in Indiana · « **Reply #52 on:** September 29, 2012, 02:22:41 PM »

Steve,
I have had some nice targets. The barrel is very thin and I can get two shots off before the barrel is hot. I am shooting 180 g @ 2400-2500 fps using IMR 4198 and H 335. These are the only suitable powders that I have on hand now. My testing is over for this season.

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #53 on:** November 08, 2012, 12:01:54 PM »

JY,

I decided to remove my single shot follower in my 700 ADL .358 Win. for the possibility of a required quick second shot. Awhile back, you asked if the short necks had enough neck tension to keep the bullets from shifting in the magazine during recoil.

I have to say, yes. Last weekend, I loaded 3 rounds in the magazine and proceeded to fire 3 shots from the bench at 200 yards. After each firing, I visually looked at the next round before the bolt pushed it in the chamber and they looked good and shot very nice groups that I have gotten use to with this arrangement.

While I did not remove each round and check the O.A.L. with a caliper, I am happy with my visual inspection and ease of bolt closing on subsequent rounds.

Good Luck in the field this year,

Steve

jy951 · « **Reply #54 on:** November 12, 2012, 02:42:01 PM »

Thanks for the update, Steve, that's good to hear the ammo is holding together. I will have to admit due to my laziness, I was not able to get any ammo loaded and will not be using the 358 this year. It's either the CVA Scout in 44 mag or Encore in 500 for me. Good luck to everyone and be safe.

Quote from: steve@357maximum.com on November 08, 2012, 12:01:54 PM

JY,

I decided to remove my single shot follower in my 700 ADL .358 Win. for the possibility of a required quick second shot. Awhile back, you asked if the short necks had enough neck tension to keep the bullets from shifting in the magazine during recoil.

I have to say, yes. Last weekend, I loaded 3 rounds in the magazine and proceeded to fire 3 shots from the bench at 200 yards. After each firing, I visually looked at the next round before the bolt pushed it in the chamber and they looked good and shot very nice groups that I have gotten use to with this arrangement.

While I did not remove each round and check the O.A.L. with a caliper, I am happy with my visual inspection and ease of bolt closing on subsequent rounds.

Good Luck in the field this year,

Steve

jackpine · « **Reply #55 on:** November 24, 2012, 04:59:08 PM »

I have searched this thread and other forums and cannot find a difinitive answer on whether it is strictly the cartidge carried on your person, or the stamping on the rifle and/cartidge that determines if you are legal.
If I have an unaltered 358 Winchester or 35 Remington rifle, but am carrying corresponding cartidges that are simply cases shortened to 1.8 inches, am I legal?

Thanks,
Jackpine

Hank in Indiana · « **Reply #56 on:** November 25, 2012, 02:56:18 AM »

Jackpine
The next time that you get by a sporting goods department pick up a free Ind, Hunting and Trapping guide. On page 21 it describes Hunting Equipment. ***rifles with legal cartridges ***are legal during the firearms seasons. Three paragraphs later it defines a legal cartridge. I hope that eases your mind. The DNR has made it very short and eliminated the confusion. There is no mention of pistol cartridges for rifles or straight wall cases that have been areas of confusion in the past. Just read exactly what is printed and not what someone heard someone say.

jackpine · « **Reply #57 on:** November 25, 2012, 04:52:50 AM »

Hank,

First of all, thanks for the reply and to you and all the others for all the great info on this thread.

I am not an Indiana resident, but my son and grandson are and I am a gun nut, so this is all of great interest to me. I understand know what the regulation says and totally agree that what is says makes you legal as long as the cartidge qualifies. What I am concerned with is how DNR deals with this. I had posted a question on another thread before I found this one and got a reply that someone had called DNR and gotten a different answer. I am also wondering if the reg actually quotes the statute or interprets it and if so, could the reg change next year.

Has there been any interaction in the field between DNR officers and folks carrying rifles marked for "non-qualifying" rounds and has the DNR made statement or stand these questions.

Thanks again for all the help.

Jackpine

Hank in Indiana · « **Reply #58 on:** November 25, 2012, 05:24:06 AM »

The regs can change anytime. Last year the max case length was 1.625" This year 1.8". As far as rifles firing non-qualifing rounds, they all can. Shotguns can fire buckshot, Muzzle loaders can sabot down to 30 cal. 44 mags can fire 44 russions, 45LC can fire 45 schofields, 357mags can fire 38spl.
This is why the rule states that the rifle must be capable of firing a legal cartridge.

steve@357maximum.com · « **Reply #59 on:** November 26, 2012, 11:06:20 AM »

Jackpine,

I can tell you about two separate interactions with DNR officials and the .358 Winchester.

The first was my personal experience face to face with a DNR guy in northern IN. A good friend was having a wild game cook out/party on his family farm in North East IN. A DNR guy with his family attended the outing. I had a .358 short neck dummy round in my pocket. The host asked me to show it to the DNR guy. He just looked at it and said "cool". I asked him about how they monitor this and he said his boss was making some pocket gauges showing max. length and min. bullet diameter so they have something to verify in the field. He very much downplayed the fact that they are not splitting hairs trying to catch someone that might be outside of the legal window. Obviously, they are looking for the blatant offenders. He was a very nice guy, a hunter himself, and I had a lot of respect for him.

The second, was from a good friend of mine in Kosciusko county. One day this year he was leaving the field and a C.O. that was driving by stopped by to check his license etc. My friend said he was a young guy and very friendly. When the discussion came around to what round he was using, he showed him the .358 Win. with the short neck and the C.O. just looked at it and acknowledged it as an interesting round. No sign of concern whatsoever.

I hope this helps,

Steve