Author Topic: H&R and 2012 (Read 2387 times)

xhare · « **on:** December 04, 2011, 11:25:57 AM »

I know the Shot Show is 5-6 weeks off yet, but is there any early word on what H&R may have in store for us in 2012? As always I am looking forward to some new offerings.

jimbobb55 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 04, 2011, 11:35:18 AM »

What is da Shot Show?

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #2 on:** December 04, 2011, 12:25:19 PM »

I was reading on Gunblast.com where they tested an AR-15 upper by AAC in .300 Blackout. They say there that the .300 Blackout will be in the new H&R lineup. The cartridge looks like a .223 necked up to .30 cal. purchased from Remington it comes in a 220 grain bullet at aprox 1050 fps or a 125 grain bullet at 2300 fps.

Looks like fun to me!

manatee1947 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 04, 2011, 01:16:35 PM »

Figures, they do not do a 327, but DO a 30/223 ? Can anyone say minimal shoulder ? How about FTF ?? Of course, if thats all there is, how fast would it push an 85 gr HP , and 110 gr sp ? And how about a Lyman #311359 ?? They make a 30 carbine already also. A handi is not the best platform for that cartridge, even a 256 Winchester would make more sense to me. Oh well, we shall see.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** December 04, 2011, 01:20:42 PM »

The 300 AAC Handi has been the topic of discussion before.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,224475.msg1099236265.html#msg1099236265

http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=77957

c1skout · « **Reply #5 on:** December 04, 2011, 02:21:04 PM »

I don't want to hurt anyones feelings but I think "300 Blackout" is the goofiest name I've ever heard for a cartrige. Can anbody shed some light on why it was thusly named? I must just be missing something.

lee1954 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 04, 2011, 05:53:36 PM »

WOW
I like to hear that the 300 BLK is possible next year...

It looks like a 357 max case would make a rimmed 300 ACC blackout -- Or am I wrong? If so it would be a lot like the 256 Winchester mag, only .30 cal..
It is less power then a 30-30 so blackout might be a overstatement. Dan

Graybeard · « **Reply #7 on:** December 04, 2011, 06:05:02 PM »

Quote from: c1skout on December 04, 2011, 02:21:04 PM

I don't want to hurt anyones feelings but I think "300 Blackout" is the goofiest name I've ever heard for a cartrige. Can anbody shed some light on why it was thusly named? I must just be missing something.

Prolly cuz when JD Jones of SSK Industries designed it he called it the .300 Whisper and copy righted the name. Ever since folks have been trying to steal his idea and use it without permission. Maybe it's a black out of the real name of the round.

xhare · « **Reply #8 on:** December 04, 2011, 06:08:40 PM »

Jim Bob,

The Shot Show is the industry show where most of the new stuff is first shown to the media and public.

http://www.shotshow.org/

ibgp3 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 05, 2011, 03:25:05 AM »

30 years ago the .223 necked out to 7mm was an early favorite in IHMSA. All it took was a 7mm neck sizer and shoot the brass over and over. I don't remember any wearing out, (but that was 30 years ago).

Too bad H&R didn't go that route, I've still got brass and dies.

.30 x 223 should be a pretty good cartridge, but it will also give you a barrel that can be rechambered for just about any .30 caliber cartridge.

tobster · « **Reply #10 on:** December 05, 2011, 04:24:11 AM »

So is the Shot Show just for people in the industry or do they have days when it is open to the general public?

dave29 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 05, 2011, 04:55:58 AM »

Quote from: ibgp3 on December 05, 2011, 03:25:05 AM

but it will also give you a barrel that can be rechambered for just about any .30 caliber cartridge.

Exactly what I am thinking.

On a side note, I thought H&R was only going to make these guns for another reseller.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** December 05, 2011, 05:01:50 AM »

Quote from: dave29 on December 05, 2011, 04:55:58 AM

On a side note, I thought H&R was only going to make these guns for another reseller.

That was my understanding too from the previous discussion, it won't likely be in the catalog and available to all distributors, just as many other H&R firearms aren't like the 35 Rem and Whelens, and other special orders.

Tim

manatee1947 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 05, 2011, 05:32:24 AM »

The possibility of rechambering is probably the one shining point of the cartridge. Blackout is what happens when one realizes how underwhelming the whole idea is, when multiple yawns compress , like hitting the sound barrier, and a sudden nap ensues. I know that many enamored of "black rifles" and the AR "platform" would be all excited about this, and so they should, but the Handi "platform" is not about how many rounds you can put downrange. It is not about picatinny (sp?) rails and how many accessories you can hang on it. It is not about increasing the "tactical value " of the weapon. Somewhere there are probably individuals that envision a handi with a collapseable stock, a rail with a scope, rangefinder, bayonet, tactical light, bipod, temperature, humidity and wind gauge, GPS, silencer, and microwave. I cannot think of anything further from my outlook.
I see a handi as the simple embodiment of individualism. A single shot, delivered from a minimailist package, where the outcome it the result of the effort and talent of the user, not how much trick technology one can afford. I think that the highest example of that are the Maxi's out there. A hand reamed barrel for a chambering that is no longer commercially produced, hand loaded with a cast bullet poured from scrap metal that is a work of art, formed in a garage somewhere. Loaded to specifications of the shooter alone, for the single gun it will be fired from. The only thing better might be a Herrett, as you would also form the brass yourself.
I guess we could push for a 45/90 single shot on an AR platform, no magazine, and set up to use black powder.
Other than the availability of possible brass, what could be the advantage ? It would not lend itself to cast loading well. Subsonic loads? Go heavy cast from a 357, not 220 gr jacketed, and why?, we cant use silencers to hunt with, and the license and paperwork are a nightmare. A 327 would at least have 4 different brass one could use, and be a good small game cartridge with wide power and cost range. Even a 6mm TCU would have been somewhat more practical, you would not lose so much brass and have to anneal shoulders and necks. Just my 2 cents , well, maybe 25 cents worth.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 05, 2011, 05:37:25 AM »

The 300 Blackout is closer to a 221 case than a 223 case. This is so it will fit in a standard 223 magazine for an AR style firearm. My understanding is it is the 300 Blackout is slightly different than a 300 Whisper (221-308) which was designed for single shot guns so it could be run through an AR style gun with minimal changes.
Since "300 Whisper" is copyrighted it would take licensing agreements not to infringe on it. Viola; change the dimensions slightly and a new name, you have the 300 Blackout. I would imagine the "Blackout" is a tip of the hat to the AR platform/blackops type weapon.
As far as chambering a 300 Blackout in a Handi, - again I would imagine it would a lot less messy to chamber it than a 300 Whisper because of the licensing fees + Remington must have some sort of deal worked out since it is manufacturing ammo in 300 Blackout.
Good Luck and Good Shooting

ibgp3 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 05, 2011, 05:40:41 AM »

300 ~~whisper~~ = 300 blackout if the line-thru is bigger

bilmac · « **Reply #16 on:** December 05, 2011, 06:40:05 AM »

Nice rant Manatee, I have a lot of the same thoughts. I often wonder why folks have to hang so many gadgets on even an AR. Clearly the folks that do so probably never carry them farther than from the car to a bench. If I were a better typist I would express my dismay with foolishness more often myself.

wganzWork · « **Reply #17 on:** December 05, 2011, 06:43:34 AM »

Quote from: manatee1947 on December 05, 2011, 05:32:24 AM

The possibility of rechambering is probably the one shining point of the cartridge. Blackout is what happens when one realizes how underwhelming the whole idea is, when multiple yawns compress , like hitting the sound barrier, and a sudden nap ensues. I know that many enamored of "black rifles" and the AR "platform" would be all excited about this, and so they should, but the Handi "platform" is not about how many rounds you can put downrange. It is not about picatinny (sp?) rails and how many accessories you can hang on it. It is not about increasing the "tactical value " of the weapon. Somewhere there are probably individuals that envision a handi with a collapseable stock, a rail with a scope, rangefinder, bayonet, tactical light, bipod, temperature, humidity and wind gauge, GPS, silencer, and microwave. I cannot think of anything further from my outlook.
I see a handi as the simple embodiment of individualism. A single shot, delivered from a minimailist package, where the outcome it the result of the effort and talent of the user, not how much trick technology one can afford. I think that the highest example of that are the Maxi's out there. A hand reamed barrel for a chambering that is no longer commercially produced, hand loaded with a cast bullet poured from scrap metal that is a work of art, formed in a garage somewhere. Loaded to specifications of the shooter alone, for the single gun it will be fired from. The only thing better might be a Herrett, as you would also form the brass yourself.
I guess we could push for a 45/90 single shot on an AR platform, no magazine, and set up to use black powder.
Other than the availability of possible brass, what could be the advantage ? It would not lend itself to cast loading well. Subsonic loads? Go heavy cast from a 357, not 220 gr jacketed, and why?, we cant use silencers to hunt with, and the license and paperwork are a nightmare. A 327 would at least have 4 different brass one could use, and be a good small game cartridge with wide power and cost range. Even a 6mm TCU would have been somewhat more practical, you would not lose so much brass and have to anneal shoulders and necks. Just my 2 cents , well, maybe 25 cents worth.

You should read the thread about this lot of special order Handi on that other forum to get their view on it. Their main interest in a .300 BLK is for a simple, super quiet, spooky accurate, reliable, and inexpensive rifle. I'm willing to wager you a cup of coffee that most of those adjectives are the same attributes that you like about Handi's also. The pix of this special order rifle(which BTW has NONE of the 12 doodads you listed) gets the same reaction that it would over here. IMO, getting another group interested in Handi Rifles isn't a 'bad thing'.

manatee1947 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 05, 2011, 10:33:31 AM »

I would be happy to buy you coffee anyway were you close enough. And if you checked the special order posts, I am a big fan of and vociferous supporter of the special order feature, I might even buy one of these things just for the weird factor. I have a standing offer to put money up front on a 25/20, 25/35, 405 Win, something that would not come from anywhere else in that format. If I was going for something like this, I would be thinking Savage bolt (unless it was an AR in some form). I can buy a 243/308/270/30/06 bolt in a Mossberg CHEAPER than a new Handi, a perfectly good, functional rifle. The lure of the handi is it is "different", I have yet to see a 94 Win 30/30 that is as accurate or versatile as a handi. The only other viable 45/70 (or 444 ) is $600 Marlin lever gun. Both have OAL problems and are not as friendly to cast bullets as my handi. I have a tackdriving 25/06 Savage, which fills a totally different niche than a handi, I would not buy a 25/06 barrel at all, but I would give my eye teeth for a 25/35, even more for a 25/20. The guy who mentioned making a 256 Maximum was very interesting. To each his own.

cowboyup453 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 05, 2011, 04:31:47 PM »

Quote from: dave29 on December 05, 2011, 04:55:58 AM

Quote from: ibgp3 on December 05, 2011, 03:25:05 AM
but it will also give you a barrel that can be rechambered for just about any .30 caliber cartridge.

Exactly what I am thinking.

On a side note, I thought H&R was only going to make these guns for another reseller.

+1

manatee1947 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 06, 2011, 01:35:01 AM »

I checked my reloading books, there is not a dimes worth of difference ballistically between a 300 Whisper and a 32/20. They should thicken 32/20 brass .002 and use .308 bullets, there we are. How many years has the 32/20 been around, about 125 ?? Duh.

Well, we do love the 32/20..........but it has a rim.......

MSP Ret · « **Reply #21 on:** December 06, 2011, 03:58:36 AM »

Quote from: ibgp3 on December 05, 2011, 03:25:05 AM

30 years ago the .223 necked out to 7mm was an early favorite in IHMSA. All it took was a 7mm neck sizer and shoot the brass over and over. I don't remember any wearing out, (but that was 30 years ago).

Too bad H&R didn't go that route, I've still got brass and dies.

.30 x 223 should be a pretty good cartridge, but it will also give you a barrel that can be rechambered for just about any .30 caliber cartridge.

A .223/5.56 necked up to 7mm (.284), that sounds GOOD!!!....<><....

ibgp3 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 06, 2011, 04:06:51 AM »

It appears that it is known as 7mm TCU now.
It was known as 7x47 then.

wganzWork · « **Reply #23 on:** December 06, 2011, 04:53:12 AM »

Quote from: ibgp3 on December 06, 2011, 04:06:51 AM

It appears that it is known as 7mm TCU now.
It was known as 7x47 then.

Google the 7mm SAKO.

Quote

The first civilian rifle bearing the Sako name was the L42 (Luodikko [rifle] model 1942) chambered for the 7x33mm Sako cartridge, prototyped in 1942, and commercial production started after WWII. Sako developed the 7x33 cartridge based on the 9x19 pistol cartridge, by making a longer case and "necking" the case down to 7mm calibre (7.21mm bullet diameter). This cartridge was designed for and well suited to capercaille and black grouse hunting, a popular sport in Finland, Sweden and Norway.

ibgp3 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 06, 2011, 05:04:55 AM »

Interesting!

I had a 221 fireball necked out to 7mm for my kids to shoot IHMSA. We called it 7x37.

Swampman · « **Reply #25 on:** December 06, 2011, 05:53:03 AM »

Quote from: manatee1947 on December 04, 2011, 01:16:35 PM

Figures, they do not do a 327,

Word on the street is that the .327 is in real trouble.

petemi · « **Reply #26 on:** December 06, 2011, 06:24:38 AM »

It seems my Handi .32-20 has been a Whisper/Blackout for well over 100 years. He's some poop on it from Jim Taylor:

Pete

Specialty Loads for the Levergun:
These loads are only for the Marlin 1894CL and the modern-made Winchester/Browning guns. They are safe in my gun but may not be in yours. Reduce all high-pressure loads by at least 10% when starting. Remember, case life is extremely short at these pressures.

Hi-Velocity and Pressure

Bullet	Powder Charge	Velocity
Speer 100 gr. JHP	15 gr. H-110	2175 fps
Speer 125 gr. Spitzer	14.5 gr. H-110	2000 fps
		(.311-inch bullet, loaded to an overall length of 1.745 inch)

Totally Silent Loads:
These loads are very low pressure. You need to watch for stoppages with these loads. I have never experienced one but it does not mean it could not happen. Accuracy with these loads is on the order of -inch groups at 50 feet. All 3 of these loads are totally silent. All you will hear from the rifle is the hammer fall.

Totally Silent Loads

Bullet	Powder Charge	Velocity
Lee 95 gr. RN cast	2.5 gr. 2400	491 fps
Lee 95 gr. RN cast	4.8 gr. 3031	420 fps
#3118 cast	4.8 gr. 3031	432 fps

keith44 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 06, 2011, 06:34:43 AM »

.32's are popular with only a select few. The attempt to unseat the .32 H&R Magnum by offering a more powerful .32 has been longer lived than I originally predicted.

Swampman · « **Reply #28 on:** December 06, 2011, 07:30:07 AM »

I'm hearing that production has stopped on .327 guns and the ammo may be reduced by 10,000 psi due to issues with the guns.

manatee1947 · « **Reply #29 on:** December 06, 2011, 01:45:48 PM »

Sound like the same thing that the 357 Maxi had going in its day, too much for a revolver, but look what it does in a handi.......
Those of you who like all those performance stats are like the guys who look at the fold out and dream, they both look good on paper.
Those of us who love 32's have been in the hot tub with the girl next door, she may not look flawless on paper, but we KNOW what she can do.
Thats why we married her. And why 35 years later she is still here. And so is my 32/20.