Author Topic: .30 Cal, how far can I reduce the load for smaller pigs? (Read 3404 times)

JMcDonald · « **on:** December 06, 2011, 07:25:22 AM »

I have touched on this generally in other threads, but I have a more specific question.

So, my GF and I have been invited to go hog hunting, and we presumed we would use my .308. Hunting ammo comes out around 2600-2650fps from my gun due to its short barrel, but I know that is plenty for the <<150yd ranges I expect to see. But, while the GF can *handle* the loads, she doesn't particularly enjoy shooting them and will pretty quickly start flinching. So, how far down can I load to still be effective on pigs under, say, 100lbs? I have read about people taking 75-100lbs pretty successfully at medium ranges using even .30-carbine, and I can easily duplicate those loads using the same bullets and Unique powder, for about 1/3 the recoil of my current loads. Obviously, she wouldn't try taking anything serious with it, and I'd still have the full-power loads for that. Though, from what I've read the average-sized male in Oklahoma is about 130lbs and the average sow is about 110lbs, with rare speciments getting to 300. But again, especially for her, we would only go for the ones on the smaller side.

But yes, as the title states, how light can I go for a reasonably-effective load for smaller hogs inside probably 75 yards using a .30-cal projectile? I want her to be able to hunt with the same loads used in practice because I want her to be completely comfortable with them, and have thus pretty seriously considered the ".30 carbine" approach. She is pretty good with her .22 so I think in a decently-supported position (like kneeling or even prone) she could make a good shot at these ranges, as long as she was comfortable enough with the gun to keep her mind on the basics of good shooting, rather than the muzzle blast or recoil.

Performance seems pretty decent for the goal:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/30carbineFed110grSP.html

*edit*
I will eventually try to pick up a .44mag barrel because I think that would do everything but generally with a little less muzzle blast, easier reloading, and slightly-reduced practice costs. I already have the dies, a lot of bullets left for practice loads (RNFP bullets, which I suppose could still be reasonably effective on their own), and much more loading experience with the cartridge. But, until I get around to that, the .308 will have to do!

kynardsj · « **Reply #1 on:** December 06, 2011, 08:01:34 AM »

My light loads for my 308 are 125 gr JSP or 125 gr JHP over 15.4 gr of Unique for around 1900 fps or 13.0 gr of Red Dot for around 1600 fps. Both are very light recoil and very accurate. The Red Dot load took a buck last year at around 75 yards and even though it was a light load it still went thru him.

STUMPJMPR · « **Reply #2 on:** December 06, 2011, 08:05:26 AM »

I would consider shooting 30-30 bullets if your going to reduce the loads. You could probably shoot 130-150 grain bullets at around 2000 fps.

kynardsj · « **Reply #3 on:** December 06, 2011, 08:08:02 AM »

The 125 JHP's were made to load in the tubular magazine of a 30-30.

BBF · « **Reply #4 on:** December 06, 2011, 08:30:58 AM »

You would have no problems loading a 30-30 type bullet to 30-30 velocities using the least amount of powder you can get reasonable accuracy with.

From the Speer Manual # 13 Page 296 I quote the Lab Note This is for the 30-06 !!

"Look at the H-4895 data above. Ther start load of 42.0 gr duplicates the performance of the 30-30 with the same weight bullet................"

Using Hodgdon 60 % rule with the 308 Win and a 150 gr bullet you can load as a minimum charge H-4895 with as little as 27.3 gr.

Other powders that will propel a 150 gr bullet around 1900 to 2300 fps are H-380 and BL-C2

necchi · « **Reply #5 on:** December 06, 2011, 08:32:21 AM »

Hodgdons has "reduced rifle loads" using H4895,, only H4895,, http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf

clearwater · « **Reply #6 on:** December 06, 2011, 08:43:52 AM »

According to the Hodgdon site, 10 grains of trail boss and 150 grain bullet give 1176 fps.

Could be a subsonic load?

Since most pointy bullets in that weight open at faster speeds (Nosler BT for example) I second the motion of
a 30-30 bullet. The Hornady 170 grain flat point is made to open up at 300 yards after being shot from a 30-30,
tho I would go with a 150 grain 30-30 for less recoil and use trail boss to work up an accurate load.

JMcDonald · « **Reply #7 on:** December 06, 2011, 08:54:28 AM »

With my short barrel and my relatively fast rifle powder (H335), I am already getting down to .30-30 ballistics (150gr bullets at ~2450), but they are still a little stout for her comfort.
kynardsj, that is really good to hear about your success with the 125gr bullets at ~1600fps!! Did it expand?

kynardsj · « **Reply #8 on:** December 06, 2011, 10:23:02 AM »

Only way I could tell that the 125 gr JHP expanded was that the exit hole was much larger than the entry hole. It was a neck shot and the buck was DRT.

JMcDonald · « **Reply #9 on:** December 06, 2011, 01:03:37 PM »

Sounds logical to me

. What bullet was it, specifically?

kynardsj · « **Reply #10 on:** December 06, 2011, 01:38:31 PM »

Sierra Pro Hunter 125 gr JHP. The load over 13.0 gr of Red Dot has been discussed on this site before. The load over 15.4 gr of Unique is one I found in one of my 308 loadbooks. I shot these in my 308 Encore pistol with the 15 inch barrel. Recoil was less than a 357 mag. The farthest shot that can be made at my local shooting range is about 120 yards before you get to the enbankment. I used to put clay pigeons on the bank and let my wife and a friend of hers break them with the 308 and these light loads. It had gotten boring to me breaking them at that range but they would have a ball and I would be reloading 30-40 rounds after they were through.

Monteria · « **Reply #11 on:** December 06, 2011, 02:29:14 PM »

125 BTs and 150 SSTs at highly reduced 30-30 load velocity have both proved effective on 100 to 150lb hogs. We are talking reduced enough for 5 to 10 year old kids here. Ranges were kept short, but as always, precision placement was the determining factor.

JMcDonald · « **Reply #12 on:** December 06, 2011, 03:01:33 PM »

Sweet! So are we talking like 2000fps, or even lower?

Spanky · « **Reply #13 on:** December 06, 2011, 04:23:44 PM »

Spanky

tacklebury · « **Reply #14 on:** December 06, 2011, 04:32:30 PM »

I might recommend a load I'm using in .30-40 Krag using Reloader7 as it has a lot less "kick" and to me seems more of a push. This is a download safe for use in old Krag actions, so should be about what you're looking for.

Instead of going to a light bullet with pistol powder, try this:
Bullet: Lyman # 311644 190 gr. (#2 alloy)
Powder: RX7 (Reloader 7)
Start grains:19.5 = 1522 fps.
Max grains: 28.5 =2062 fps
Over all length @ 2.925" BC: .272 SD: .286

I interpolated this as a starting point in my 7.5x55 Swiss which is just barely larger than the .308 in case size and was a nice mild load.

I was getting about 8" groups at 250 yards with the iron sights. The lower velocities are a bit weak for jacketed, but if you get them into the 1600 fps+ range, it's ok per Hornady (called them) to use their 180gr. SP Interlock, which is a really tough dog.

Just another possibility for you anyway.

JMcDonald · « **Reply #15 on:** December 06, 2011, 04:33:46 PM »

Thank you for that info, tackleburry! That is good to hear about the 180gr FP, as I wasn't sure how slow it could go and still expand. Were they talking about a 1600fps MV, or impact velocity?

For those interested in learning something new, even if they are too manly for this to apply personally, I have been doing a lot of reading about people's experiences with hogs in the various forms of lower-velocity .30cals. As I mentioned above, those who have actually used the .30 Carbine on closer shots (100 yards max, but more often within 50-75) have reported almost universaly positive results with decent shot placement on broadside shots (or head / neck hits). I found some results of people using things like .30-30 pistols and .300-Fireball AR15s, pushing ~125/130gr bullets to between 1900-2200 FPS, and again the results were generally positive on hogs and deer around 100lbs. I even did some reading on the .32-20 and lots of people reported lots of success with the cartridge.

*edit*
No harm, no foul.

manatee1947 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 06, 2011, 04:43:43 PM »

I load 125 PSP in my 30/30 to about 2300 fps, a 7.62X 39 equivalent load, it works for my 11 year old grandson and kills deer as well as a Buick. To get that out of a 308 you might want to look at SR 4759 and XMR 5744. They have reduced loads @ about 2250.

Spanky · « **Reply #17 on:** December 06, 2011, 04:44:01 PM »

I'm not trying to bust anyone's chops or offend anyone. My point is this... the 308 is gonna have some recoil plain and simple. You're just not going to turn it into a 22 no matter how much you neuter it.
Why not just go ahead with your plan to get her a 44 and be done with it. A 44 mag will hammer pigs and deer all day long and the recoil won't knock her fillings out.
Too many people take a gun and try to make it something it's not. It's counterproductive.

Spanky

tacklebury · « **Reply #18 on:** December 06, 2011, 04:49:19 PM »

No problem.

It's just another possibility for you. Hornady's statement was 1600mv at impact. I used JBM's calculator to determine what was needed to get to 250 yards and found it to be 2053 FPS at muzzle with this bullet's BC to still have 1600 at 250 yards. That's the maximum range I will be shooting it with iron sights anyway.

That is approximate MV negating wind...

JMcDonald · « **Reply #19 on:** December 06, 2011, 04:55:15 PM »

It isn't at all that I'm trying to make my rifle "into" a .22, it's just that don't want it to recoil like a .308 for her. I bought the rifle for myself (before I met her) and can handle the recoil just fine. We normally don't shoot it when we go to the range together, and concern for her really only came about with the hog hunting in mind. While I probably would eventually switch to .44mag, I am not going to rush out and buy something when I have a hundred workable options using the tool I have.

And I think it is completely productive to get the most out of the guns you have. I'd even say it makes things more personal to make your equipment work for you, rather than buying a new piece of gear every time you have a new problem. I personally have lots of respect for the old guys who load subsonic plinkers into the .30-06s to take rabbits one day, and then 180gr bullets into the same rifle to take elk a week later.

In any case, I think it would be foolish to just slap any full-powered rifle into her arms and tell her to "man up." I think that is the perfect way to turn off any new shooter.

*edit*
tackleberry, thank you! Do you know if that 1600fps impact velocity applies to any of their other bullets? Seems like one of their 130gr bullets at about 2000fps MV and have pretty mild recoil while still staying above 1600fps to about 175 yards, which is well beyond the max range I'd want her to shoot. The 150gr Interlock SP could actually be loaded with a warm charge of Unique (probably about 18gr) for a MV of 1800fps, and stay above 1600 until 100 yards. I largely like the Unique loads because I still have a good 3lbs of it despite shooting about 1000 9mm and 3000 .44mag loads over the last several months.

tacklebury · « **Reply #20 on:** December 06, 2011, 05:21:54 PM »

Their response was specific to the 180 gr. bullet. 8( I would guess that most of their Interlock line would be relatively close though. Might shoot them an email. They replied to me in 12 hours, so not too long of a wait.

JMcDonald · « **Reply #21 on:** December 06, 2011, 05:27:11 PM »

Good point! Just emailed them about which of their .308 bullets would provide some degree of expansion at these lower impact velocities, specifically for deer and hugs under 100lbs and inside 100 yards.

3leggedturtle · « **Reply #22 on:** December 06, 2011, 10:26:54 PM »

Quote from: JMcDonald on December 06, 2011, 04:55:15 PM

It isn't at all that I'm trying to make my rifle "into" a .22, it's just that don't want it to recoil like a .308 for her. I bought the rifle for myself (before I met her) and can handle the recoil just fine. We normally don't shoot it when we go to the range together, and concern for her really only came about with the hog hunting in mind. While I probably would eventually switch to .44mag, I am not going to rush out and buy something when I have a hundred workable options using the tool I have.

And I think it is completely productive to get the most out of the guns you have. I'd even say it makes things more personal to make your equipment work for you, rather than buying a new piece of gear every time you have a new problem. I personally have lots of respect for the old guys who load subsonic plinkers into the .30-06s to take rabbits one day, and then 180gr bullets into the same rifle to take elk a week later. .

In my camp: A lady that wants to, displaces any man that can. Twofold for a kid under 18. No flame meant or implied!! Good hunting and enjoy the time together. Todd/3leg

earl54 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 07, 2011, 03:49:46 AM »

I have prob shot 35 pigs with a 180cast flat nose at less than 1200fps(problem pigs).Shoot them through the clock works and you will have no problems(placement,placement,placement)-Danny

Sourdough · « **Reply #24 on:** December 07, 2011, 04:11:52 AM »

Bullet weight and velocity are the two main contribitors to recoil. First choose a light weight bullet that is capable of doing the job at lower velocities. Then find a powder that will give the velocity you want.

Hodgen has a whole list of loads ranging from high to extreamely low, for almost every caliber. Someone gave the site farther back. Check it out, I am sure you can find what you are looking for.

JMcDonald · « **Reply #25 on:** December 07, 2011, 04:26:24 AM »

Earl54, do you mean 180gr cast bullets in a .30-cal? If so, that is inspiring

.

Sourdough, my main concern has been bullet performance at these velocities, and not so much finding a load to do it!

And I should clarify. She is not a "new shooter," and she definitely isn't a softie by any stretch

. She grew up shooting her lever-action .22 and her dad's single-six out on their property, and has ridden horses all her life. I've known her to loop a rope around a 900lb bale of hay so she could drag it off the top of the pile with their tractor. She even called me once after hiding behind the door for 5 minutes with her dad's .357 in her hands, because she kept hearing a scratching noise on the other side of it (turned out to be a piece of cardboard that blew over there

). It is just that she is new to recoiling long guns guns, and I want the experience to be as enjoyable as possible for her. But I have absolutely no chauvinistic thoughts on this

. I am just recognizing the problem (that she flinches under the recoil of even the moderate-power loads I shoot, and has since never wanted to shoot it again because she simply didn't enjoy it), and finding a solution

.

necchi · « **Reply #26 on:** December 07, 2011, 05:32:08 AM »

Have you thought about cutting the stock and installing a recoil pad? I did with my 308 because that butt plate just wasn't fun to shoot even with 150 grn'rs. I can go to the range with it now and send 20-25 of the rifles favored 165-168's downrange without difficulty.
It can be done with basic hand tools at the kitchen table in just a few hours.
http://www.pachmayr.com/home/F250.php

While it may not be financially feasible right now, having a low recoil rifle in one of several calibers in the collection is a good idea just for circumstances like this. Introducing new shooters to the sport is fun, or having something for youth and lady's to take into the field, comfortably, is priceless.

JMcDonald · « **Reply #27 on:** December 07, 2011, 06:17:03 AM »

It currently has an ~11" LOP and a Limbsaver

. I've put almost 100 rounds downrange in one sitting with no problem (ended up running out of time). The issue for her is more that it is just very "big, intense, shocking event" (her description), rather than particularly painful. She put about 10 rounds through it once and on the first couple shots she was hitting the gongs at 200 yards, but after that she began flinching and has since subtly expressed a lack of desire to shoot it any more

. Before that, she had put a handful of rounds of the same Bullets over warm charges of Unique (15-20gr), and said those were MUCH more pleasurable to shoot. These were 150gr bullets at what I assumed was about 1600-2000fps.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #28 on:** December 07, 2011, 06:49:20 AM »

FWIW, if it is recoiling 'up' and catching her under the cheekbone it is worse than the shoulder felt recoil (by a bunch!). I would make 30-30 equiv. loads, they will work fine, but see if you can really define what is hurting her with the 308 loads.

earl54 · « **Reply #29 on:** December 07, 2011, 07:25:32 AM »

Its an 8mm mauser custom with a 19in barrel and peep site.I hunt here in Florida in thick brush and most of my shots are at bow hunting ranges.The gun is 6.5lbs with a steel butplate,and with 200gr soft points you know it went off.I have killed hogs up to 200lbs with 180s and 3.5gr of bullseye powder(headshots)most times the bullet exits the other side of the skull.220 cast(lyman311284)at 1258fps from a Rem.Mod.7 will shoot front to rear of a 320lb pig.All my cast hunting loads are soft point,1st 25% of length pure lead,the last 75% wheel weights.