Author Topic: Factory Remington .243 ammo fail in the ultra today (Read 1552 times)

semperfi1970 · « **on:** December 10, 2011, 10:52:46 AM »

I was at the range today just popping off some rounds for fun when the Handi made the loudest boom and a smoke show, good thing I had shooting glasses on as they are pitted now. I would dare to say the .243 sounded more like my muzzle breaked 220 swift AI loaded to the hilt. I have had failure with many times reloaded brass but never new factory ammo. Just my luck I found that one in a million over charge. I have never had an issue with any Rem products with the exception of 22lr bulk as we all know as the norm. The nice part was the case came out on its own even though it was a over charge. Just thought I would share what happened.

JB White · « **Reply #1 on:** December 10, 2011, 11:02:02 AM »

Glad to hear you're OK. Cheap insurance in shooting glasses just became worth 5x their weight in gold, didn't they?
How did the rifle hold up? Have you had a chance for a detailed inspection yet? Back in the early 80's I had some case failures with Remingtons but nothing near as dramatic as yours. Back then I wrote a letter to Remington describing the problem along with the lot number. I didn't hear back but there weren't as many eager liability lawyers on the prowl then.
Today I would make sure I contacted them with the info. If they hear of more mishaps within that lot or near that lot they may want to issue a recall.

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #2 on:** December 10, 2011, 11:50:50 AM »

Surprised both parts of the case came out on their own. Glad you had your E.P. on and were not injured. I would contact them.

semperfi1970 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 10, 2011, 11:55:51 AM »

The gun held up fine as far as I can tell. I have yet to shoot it sence the case fail. It locks up fine, the chamber,throat and bore all look fine. My handi was sent back two years ago for popping open and still will with factory ammo a small percentage of the time but it stayed locked up today, thank God.

keith44 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 10, 2011, 12:06:23 PM »

Glad you are Ok, after you shoot the next round, and measure the length from rim to shoulder and compare that to the factory ammo (there will be a slight difference) send the failed case and one that did not fail to Remington (call for address or check the box for one) along with the lot number (works best if you send the box flap with the lot number on it). I did this with Federal back in the 90's and in addition to an apology recieved two boxes of their preimum ammo as a good faith gesture. Be nice, but explain your disappointment and they may do similar.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** December 10, 2011, 12:20:52 PM »

Glad ya weren't hurt, here's Remington's instructions on misfire issues.

Tim

http://remington.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/104/kw/ammunition/r_id/166

Quote

When there is a concern regarding our ammunition, we request that you please call us at 1-800-243-9700 with you Name, Address, type of ammunition, type of failure, and the firearms used.

Once we receive this information, we will forward it to our ammunition plant so that we can send you a prepaid shipping label, and all appropriate packaging materials to send the ammunition back for testing.

We will contact you once our evaluation and testing have been completed to determine the best course of action in order to resolve this issue for you.

semperfi1970 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 10, 2011, 02:48:49 PM »

Thanks for all of the great advise guys.

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 10, 2011, 04:30:56 PM »

Only word that comes to mind is WOW!

Glad your OK and I hope they treat you right!

ratdog · « **Reply #8 on:** December 10, 2011, 08:24:56 PM »

had the same problem with a tompson contender pistol 223 cal the gun had to much head space you might want to get your gun checked out.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #9 on:** December 11, 2011, 12:58:12 AM »

Quote from: ratdog on December 10, 2011, 08:24:56 PM

had the same problem with a tompson contender pistol 223 cal the gun had to much head space you might want to get your gun checked out.

BINGO!!

A case head seperation as you have there is generally a HEAD SPACE problem more than an overcharge! As a matter of fact a case head seperation is NOT even a sign of hi pressures!! Remember brass is very resilliant and merely a vessle to hold powder, primer and bullet.

If the chamber is in fact fine that was a bad case that likely had its shoulder pushed back, allowing the head to seperate.

Glad you where OK!!!

CW

keith44 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 11, 2011, 04:30:46 AM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on December 11, 2011, 12:58:12 AM

Quote from: ratdog on December 10, 2011, 08:24:56 PM
had the same problem with a tompson contender pistol 223 cal the gun had to much head space you might want to get your gun checked out.

BINGO!!

A case head seperation as you have there is generally a HEAD SPACE problem more than an overcharge! As a matter of fact a case head seperation is NOT even a sign of hi pressures!! Remember brass is very resilliant and merely a vessle to hold powder, primer and bullet.

If the chamber is in fact fine that was a bad case that likely had its shoulder pushed back, allowing the head to seperate.

Glad you where OK!!!

CW

which is why I suggested measuring the case length between rim and shoulder, or the body length
but with the rifle having a stock or original chamber, and not being an improved chamber, the head space is not off (since it is a measurement of the chamber and not ammo)

cwlongshot · « **Reply #11 on:** December 11, 2011, 04:42:10 AM »

Quote from: keith44 on December 11, 2011, 04:30:46 AM

Which is why I suggested measuring the case length between rim and shoulder, or the body length but with the rifle having a stock or original chamber, and not being an improved chamber, the head space is not off. (since it is a measurement of the chamber and not ammo)

Apologies for not giving credit, (I try to do this in my posts when repeating others similar comments) Frankly I skimmed the posts looking for what I feel is the problem... HEAD-SPACE. While you did describe that, you did not say it and that's how I missed it. Apologies.

One thing, measuring that case is an impossibility, its in two pieces besides the differences are quite small.
Your second comment is quite a misconception and one that's a hard to break.. NEW= RITE. Unfortunately its simply not so. In a perfect world it is but we all know we are all far from perfect...
But considering the gun has been shot before and this hasn't happened, I would do as you suggested on other fired cases and measure them. If fine, its likely the problem was with that particular case and IT was out of spec causing the head separation. Not powder, but length form head to shoulder as you described.

CW

semperfi1970 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 11, 2011, 02:15:22 PM »

I do not know for fact if the headspace is correct but I have fired many a round through the handi with no issues. I have used factory Win., Fed. and Rem. ammo as well as all sorts of reloads trying to find what it liked the best. The spent case meassures 2.0330" and the recomended case trim is 2.0035", I would think if the headspace was off the case would stretch. I believe it was a over charge or oversized bullet because the primer pushed back and flattened like a overcharge. I am sending the remaining rounds and the broke case back to Rem, for them to take a look at on Monday. I have a bud that works at a gun shop and I am sure he can check the headspace or one of them can Im sure. I hope all is well as I love that little Handi.

keith44 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 11, 2011, 05:55:00 PM »

the problem with the Federal ammo I described turned out to be case annealing. Seems the factory didn't anneal the entire lot correctly.

keith44 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 11, 2011, 05:59:38 PM »

cwlongshot, I was not seeking credit, we both are thinking the case didn't fit the chamber properly. The thing is anyone can post anything on a board like this. By requesting the OP to make measurements and report the amount of stretch seen in surviving cases they learn to check for themselves, not just blindly follow what ever is posted

ratdog · « **Reply #15 on:** December 11, 2011, 10:21:09 PM »

on my 223 that had the same problem only with reloads but if i left a gap between shell holder and sizing die did not have any separation after that but you had to make sure your brass would close up in gun .no big deal the brass would stretch the first firing on factory loads but separate the second time fired.if full sized.try it see what you come up with.if your thinkig of sending it back to Remington.

cjrjck · « **Reply #16 on:** December 12, 2011, 05:52:17 AM »

My .243 Handi rifles all have chambers that are on the generous side but within allowable tolerances. You could stop by a local shop and have them check yours with a Go/No Go gauge. .243/.308 gauges are pretty common. One really good thing about the Handi design is that anytime you have a round go off that sounds or feels funny, you can easily check the barrel for obstructions when removing the round and before inserting another. I make a habit of doing this every time I fire a shot.

semperfi1970 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 12, 2011, 06:00:09 PM »

A gunsmith looked at the Handi today and checked it for headspace. He stated that it was fine and there was need to send the barrel back to H&R. After giving the gun a quick look over he fired three rounds of factory ammo through the gun(not my rem. ammo). I showed him the broken case and he showed me the ring in the spent cases he fired. The broken case burned a carbon ring in my chamber all the way around causing a ring in the three cases he fired. He polished the chamber with a cream and a rubber looking tool the shape of the chamber minus the neck of the case. The carbon ring is gone and all is well. He is not a fan of Handi rifles (at least that is the way he acted) but said they have come a long way over the years, whatever that ment. I did ask about a trigger job and a muzzle break, after his estimate I passed as it was in line with what I payed for the gun. I commented on how the handi doesnt like to group 100 grain bullets and he told me the rate of twist should stabalize them fine. My Handi is the Ultra Varmint with the 24" fluted barrel, does anybody else have issues with 100 grain core lock or power point bullets?

Here is a pic of the brass and the ring around them from the carbon ring in the chamber.

demented · « **Reply #18 on:** December 12, 2011, 06:22:54 PM »

I tried both Core-lokt and Nosler Partition 100's in my stainless ,243, never got either to shoot worth a hoot. Shot 80 grain bullets just fine though.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #19 on:** December 12, 2011, 11:50:17 PM »

Quote from: semperfi1970 on December 12, 2011, 06:00:09 PM

A gunsmith looked at the Handi today and checked it for headspace. He stated that it was fine and there was need to send the barrel back to H&R. After giving the gun a quick look over he fired three rounds of factory ammo through the gun(not my rem. ammo). I showed him the broken case and he showed me the ring in the spent cases he fired. The broken case burned a carbon ring in my chamber all the way around causing a ring in the three cases he fired. He polished the chamber with a cream and a rubber looking tool the shape of the chamber minus the neck of the case. The carbon ring is gone and all is well. He is not a fan of Handi rifles (at least that is the way he acted) but said they have come a long way over the years, whatever that ment. I did ask about a trigger job and a muzzle break, after his estimate I passed as it was in line with what I payed for the gun. I commented on how the handi doesnt like to group 100 grain bullets and he told me the rate of twist should stabalize them fine. My Handi is the Ultra Varmint with the 24" fluted barrel, does anybody else have issues with 100 grain core lock or power point bullets?

Here is a pic of the brass and the ring around them from the carbon ring in the chamber.

I gotta tell you, The pics you have supplied scream head space problems to me.... You see the way brass is made its thick at the base or web and thins very rapidly right where you see the ring... that ring shows because the brass is thinning there because of a head space problem... I know your GS said no, but frankly I don't believe him. Again we are looking thru the puter screens but this is what I see from here...

Here is some reading for you...
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/case-head-separation-cause-diagnosis/
http://www.varmintal.net/a243z.htm
Your loading manuel likely also has some good information on checking cases with a bent paperclip.

CW

semperfi1970 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 13, 2011, 04:44:21 PM »

Cwlongsht, thanks for the reading. I am going to take some fired brass and cut it open as I fail to feel much with the paper clip. I will cut brass open that has been reloaded a few times as per the reading it will show the most. I dread sending the Handi back to Illion but if the head space is off I will need to. Isnt this just a kick in the pants?

ratdog · « **Reply #21 on:** December 13, 2011, 10:44:45 PM »

cw is right about the ring that is where it has stretched. my old friend a master gun smith told me an easy way to check for to much head space is to put a small piece of tape over the loaded round over primer same size diameter as case if it locks up easy there is to much head space same on bolt actions. the pictures you show look just like the pictures in all four of my reloading manuals.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #22 on:** December 13, 2011, 11:30:51 PM »

Correct, the BARREL may be head spaced correctly... BUT thats NOT the whole story. I think the missing varaible is if the receiver is not properly fit to the barrel it effects headspace.

CW

semperfi1970 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 14, 2011, 01:06:22 PM »

Wow, the tape over the base of the case thing is scary. My gun locks up like the tape isn't there at all and I used masking tape. What boggles my mind is that I have shot hundreds of rounds out of this gun with no issues and I dont bother keeping track of how many times my brass has been reloaded. I reload on the mid to mild side as the gun likes to pop open even after going back to Illion. Factory ammo is a hit or miss on popping open were my reloads never cause the gun to pop open. Could have the barrel lug stretched with the suspect hot factory round? I cant imagine the barrel lug stretching from one hot round, I cant even imagine something that heavy streatching with a max .243 load. This whole thing is sure opening my eyes to head space as it has never been a issue for me before. I guess I will see what H&R has to say about the gun when I send it back. On a posative note this is a perfect excuse to get another barrel fitted while its there. I am thinking about a 25-06 or the 280 Rem, would like the 270 but I feel the lenght of the 270 barrel doesn't do the round justice. I thank you all for your help and input.

semperfi1970 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 14, 2011, 02:55:17 PM »

For what it's worth I fooled around with the tape thing a little more. It took 4 pieces of tape to get the rifle to lock up harder, measuring the tape after it was compressed by the action of the gun measured .014". At .019" it would not lock up. What is acceptable head space? I did use factory Win. ammo for the test, the Rem box I half shot up was sent back to Rem.

cjrjck · « **Reply #25 on:** December 14, 2011, 03:34:18 PM »

Did your dealer who looked at it use a Go/No Go Gauge? That should solve the mystery fast.

semperfi1970 · « **Reply #26 on:** December 14, 2011, 05:52:05 PM »

Yes the gunsmith used a go no go guage. This whole thing has me baffled.

ratdog · « **Reply #27 on:** December 14, 2011, 08:16:20 PM »

on your reloads back of your sizing die 1/16'' don't full size case check to see if action will close if it does finish reloading round then fire make sure latch is free of oil first if this does not fix problem send it back to remington they will fix it good.good luck.that barrel length on that 270 will do the job my 30.06 shoots 1'' groups easy at 100 yards the 270 should as good or better.

semperfi1970 · « **Reply #28 on:** December 15, 2011, 03:43:55 PM »

Thas a very good point ratdog about backing the die off. I neck size and that is probably why I have not had issues with my reloads.

bajabill · « **Reply #29 on:** December 22, 2011, 01:19:37 PM »

when I had my 243 handi, I had to limit my number of reloads to about 3, so I would get 4 total shots out of each one. I think the more necked down the cartridge is, the harder it is on brass. I think there is too much pressurized frontal area has to be held back by the lockup mechanism and any bit of poor fitup is quickly exposed. Hence, I have abandoned my 243 and 25-06 in the handi rifles.

And 4 layers of clear office tape (what is called scotch tape) sounds like too much, when I switch/reinstall savage barrels, I only buy a go gage and use 2 layers of tape on it to mimic a nogo gage. With the bolt guns, I can close hard on one layer and not close the bolt on 2 layers.