45-70 reloading question EDIT Range Results, sorta

[BKS]

  I loaded up 20 rounds for my 4570 tonight with my lee handloader.
  10 with Hornady 350 round nose   54.7 grains of Varget
  10 with Remington 405 JSP          42.4 Grains of Varget
 
   Both sat deep as possible before rolling a crimp into the cannelure.
 
   Both are lightly touchin the rifling. Had to snap rifle closed.  I dont think I can seat them any deeper in the case
 
   I shot one of each and cant see any obvious pressure signs, course these loads are mild
 
    I did look at the FAQ and stickies after I discovered this.
  Should I shoot the rest of them or pul them apart?
 Should I pull the bullets and reload the cases with 300 hp for now till I can order a reamer?
 
   How do these guns shoot the factory 405s without trouble>
 
 
 
 

[Jimbo47]

Having to force the action closed by snapping it is probably setting back the bullet, and jamming the bullet into the lands can cause a pressure spike, so just get a good caliper, and set your COL for 2.55 and you can load any bullet and be just off the lands.

[keith44]

Having to force the action closed by snapping it is probably setting back the bullet so just get a good caliper, and set your COL for 2.55 and you can load any bullet and be just off the lands.

+1


I do not understand what you are asking BKS.  What did you see in the sticky?

[JB White]

+1 on the above info. Additionally it would be worth it to chamber the rounds then visually check for signs of engraving at the ogive.
 Might not be an issue, but also look to see if perhaps your roll crimp is a tad excessive and distorting the brass below the crimp. That could simulate a tight chamber symptom under certain conditions.

[Swampman]

I usually check my first loaded round in the chamber of my gun before I load the rest of the box.  In repeaters I check to ensure they'll feed from the magazine.  Learned the hard way.

[BKS]

  I blacked the bullets and you and see where the rifling is engraving the bullet. I dont have a caliper but it appears the cannelure on the bullets is almost inside the case mouth. I am going to break them down with my bullet puller and try to seat them a little deeper.
 
  FAQs have a threat talking about how short the chambers are in the 45-70s and how it is hard to load the 405s and 350s in most rifles.
 
EDIT:  I just found several threads on the internet that say this bullet(405) has to be loaded so that the crimp is on what looks like a shoulder closer to the tip of the bullet?  Would somebody please post a pic of where they are loading this combination.

[cwlongshot]

Also check your brass length.  If long your OAL will be long.

I have three 45-70s and none have short throats... Handis generally have long throats/leades. Most cannot seat a bullet to touch rifling.  ( I haven't loaded a 45-70 for mine for some years.  Simply because I find a loading it likes then load a bunch and move to another caliber) So going by memory here. I load Speer and Remington 400/405s

Swampy is correct, a prudent loader will make a dummy round to set up that bullet for loading. Test it for function. Then like Swampy I will run them thru my action on the range as well. (Talking repeaters there) A SS kinda negates function testing.

CW

[Jimbo47]

  EDIT:  I just found several threads on the internet that say this bullet(405) has to be loaded so that the crimp is on what looks like a shoulder closer to the tip of the bullet?  Would somebody please post a pic of where they are loading this combination.

That shoulder it is talking about is anywhere between the cannelure and where the bullet starts to taper toward the bullet nose.
A picture won't do you a bit of good!    You need to go down to the auto parts store and buy a cheap caliper and measure the seated bullet to 2.55" which is from the case head to the bullet tip, and you will be good to go.
Other than that you will have an inconsistent COL and just be guessing where the seated bullet should be.
 
Also your brass case overall maximum length should not be over 2.105"

BTW, I load that exact bullet and I was having your same issues, so I'm just giving you information that helped me!

[BKS]

Will do, thanks.
I trimmed the cases with a lee case gauge and trimmer.
 
 

[Jimbo47]

I also load some hard cast lead bullets that are 405 grains but they have a fast taper from the cannelure to the tip and I don't have any issues at all with them crimping in the cannelure, but those Remington and Speer jacketed bullets have those fat shoulders, and the shallow throat won't allow crimping on the cannelure.
 
Also you can set up a dummy round like suggested using that bullet, with the brass trimmed just enough where you can crimp on the cannelure, with the bullet will still measuring at 2.55" overall length, that will work also.
You just can't exceed the overall bullet and case length of 2.55" or risk digging into the lands.

[cwlongshot]

The Speer bullet has two canalures. You can seat to either and still crimp.



CW

[quickdtoo]

Remington factory 405gr ammo has a COL of 2.538" and for good reason, at 2.55" it wouldn't chamber in several of my H&R 45-70s, I have 6 and just ordered number 7, I expect it to be short throated too.  A LOT of H&R 45-70s have short throats, it's been the topic of discussion many times. I throated three of mine, you can use the Lee factory crimp die to crimp where ever you want if you want to crimp and the cannelure is in the wrong place.

Tim

[Jimbo47]

Remington factory 405gr ammo has a COL of 2.538" and for good reason, at 2.55" it wouldn't chamber in several of my H&R 45-70s, I have 6 and just ordered number 7, I expect it to be short throated too.  A LOT of H&R 45-70s have short throats, it's been the topic of discussion many times. I throated three of mine, you can use the Lee factory crimp die to crimp where ever you want if you want to crimp and the cannelure is in the wrong place.

Tim

Exactly!
That is why you need to pay more attention to the COL moreso than where the crimp groove is located on these bullets, and you may just have to back off to 2.358" especially with these shallow throats, as I was using the Speer bullet in the photo, and it still dug into the lands crimped at the top cannelure groove on the bullet and thus the reason you need to know your COL for your rifle.
 
It's not much though, and you might have to trim the brass just a little and then you'll be able to crimp in the groove, but you have to pay special attention then to the COL, and keep track of your brass that you will use with that bullet, or just trim all your brass to the same length.
 
Personally I don't even worry about the groove on the bullet, and just trim my brass and calibrate my COL with these bullets and apply just a very light crimp, and I'm good.

[Swampman]

As soon as I get my Handi back from my friend, I'm gonna rechamber it to .45-90 to eliminate this problem.

[av-doctor]

Almost every manual tells you how to measure chamber length, i believe its in the faq's as well. I think sometimes we skip the basics when starting with a new rifle especially if we already load for the same caliber in another rifle. remember every rifle is different you should tailor loads for that rifle if they happen to work in another thats just a bonus.

[BKS]

 Ok, I admit it, I'm a dummy. God watches over idiots and Angels and I'm sure not an Angel. I took the loads apart tonight with my bullet puller till I can pick up a set of calipers, and start over again.
 
  I figured they put a cannelure there, it must be the right spot to crimp it 
  Guess I'm lucky I didn't blow me and my gun up.
 
  Thanks again for the help.
 
     

[Swampman]

I've shortened more than a few rounds just by adjusting the seater plug.

[diddlyv]

assuming you have purchased a dial caliper (Harbor Freight Cheap), one solution is to use the eraser end of a pencil to gently push the bullet into the chamber until it stops, measure the distance to the base of the bullet with your caliper.
Add the length of the bullet to that measurement to get the Cartridge Overall Length that is right for the bullet to touch the rifling.  Make rounds x number of thousands less to be off the rifling by x.  Neck tension sould be fine.  No real need for a heavy crimp in a single shot rifle.
 
One is need for a tube mag gun big time and to a lesser degree a box mag gun.

[quickdtoo]

Or just make the SIMPLE COL GAUGE as shown in the FAQs. 

Tim

[Jimbo47]

Good idea!
 
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,112672.msg1098350243.html#msg1098350243

[MSM]

  BKS, sorry for the late response. There is a lot of sound advice here, but I would say the Remington .458 405 grain bullet is the only bullet I am aware of that should not be crimped in the cannelure. It is a predictable mistake.
  I have wondered if the Remington bullet is not a very old design, before the 1972 Marlin to present '95 action was around. I think I have read that the '86 Winchester action can handle longer cartridges, and that before Marlin brought out their current .45-70 the Winchester and various single shots set the standard for acceptable over all cartridge lengths. This would seem to explain the odd cannelure placement but I could be wrong.
  The Remington 405 is a good bullet when seated to correct/contemporary specifications. I have used it on deer and pigs with good results. It opens well, and always makes two holes..in and out, for what it's worth.


  Thanks,


   MSM

[BKS]

 Ok guys, I pulled all those loads down with a bullet puller. I reloaded them with 54.7 grains of Varget and a 300 Hornady JHP. I bought a caliper and discovered that my OAL were all over the place, but none over 2.55. I think that was because I didn't resize the brass after I pulled the bullets(?)
 
 Anyay, took it to the range today, rushed for time, no scope, just the open sights on it, I was able to shoot several 2" groups at 50 yards from an improvised rest. I know it will do better. Recoil was brisk but nothing unmanageable
 
 These are dipped charges according to the lee powder measure chart too. I am gonna clean and resize my brass and load it again, gonna back it down to around 40-45 grains (Load recommended by someone on here)
 
 My 357 Handi printed several 1" groups at 50 yards with a cheap little BSA 4x scope. 158 Hornady JSP with 13.8 grains of 2400. Loaded on a Lee loader with dipped charges too. Seemed like a cap gun after shooting the 45-70.. I guess it would be potent enough to kill a deer
 
 Had 1 other person at the range and he was shooting his wife's 243, printed some clover leafs with it.

[JamesIII]

FWIW, I check the max COL for every bullet I buy. I write the max col and gun/barrel on the the inside of the box lid. I just transfer the info if I buy a new box of the same bullet. My 45-70 is long thoated, 2.646 to the lands with a Rem. 405 gr. sp.. This is just part of reloading that makes it fun!  JamesIII

[tacklebury]

Personally, on most firearms, I throw the book COL out the window, because every chamber is different.  I actually load up the first one by slowly recessing the bullet in until it will close and not be marked by the lands.  Once this happens, I measure the bullet and subtract .002 from the length and that is my COL for that firearm if the loads prove out.  Typically they will be close, but book COL has been exactly book only on 1 firearm I have and that's my EAA Witness Match .45ACP.