Semi-raised bed

[keith44]

being situated on a hill top I find erosion control at the top of the list of gardening challenges I face.  With limited flat ground I started looking at terracing some of the hillside for garden plots.  This would be a north north west facing slope.  Last season I put in two small garden beds.  One was built like a raised bed with structure on three sides and just ending into the hillside, the other only had structure on the downhill side.  The Three sided bed produced well, but slow.  This I attribute to the northerly exposure, even though there was sun on the plot for most of the day during the growing season.  The plot with just down hill soil retention structure did not produce anything. (Well I got one bell pepper off of three plants, 1 pound of potatoes from two pounds of seed potatoes, and the sweet corn did not germinate in this plot)  This second plot I have re-worked to have three sides like the first, and I have structure in place for a larger third plot further down the hill side.  By Feburary I hope to have plots number two and three "double dug" and lime applied.  Some of the soil samples from the third plot were acidic (5.3 ph) but most samples from all three plots tested at 6.0.


Anyone else ready to see spring planting season roll around??  What are you doing to get ready?

[jvs]

A  7 ph is considered neutral in most vegetable gardens, so it seems like you are still a little acidic.
 
What you might want to try is to get some leaves or leaf mulch, and add a little more lime, and till it under to get your ph up to 7.  There is a ph guide in the sticky's at the top of this forum.
 
Adding a few pounds of Epsom Salts and some 10-10-10 will help your production.  You can leave out the 10-10-10 if ou dont believe in using it.  But definitely use the Epsom Salt... Peppers love it.  Walmart sells it in the garden section when it is open.  They also have it in big containers in the drug section.
 
Any garden should have not less than 6 hours of direct sunlight a day.  If you dont have that, it will hurt.
 
I will be doing nothing in my garden until Spring.  Winter is about to arrive.

[Old Syko]

HORSE APPLES!!!!   That's right horse apples and lime and wait until spring.  I like to cover everything with this stuff and let the winter rains and snow work it in.  Come next spring I should be ready to turn it over and plant.

[keith44]

JVS if you are going to reply at least keep up, I know it's acidic that is why I said:

... By February I hope to have plots number two and three "double dug" and lime applied.  Some of the soil samples from the third plot were acidic (5.3 pH) but most samples from all three plots tested 6.0

The productive problem with the number two plot is the washing out (leaching of ) amendments applied last year and since the ground was intensively planted with tobacco for many years before I took possession of it.  It took two years just to get earthworms  on the property, so synthetics, and salts are not on the list for now.  In previous posts I talked about the intensive use of leaves gathered out of the woods.

[keith44]

HORSE APPLES!!!!   That's right horse apples and lime and wait until spring.  I like to cover everything with this stuff and let the winter rains and snow work it in.  Come next spring I should be ready to turn it over and plant.

I wish I could!!  The Amish in the area either own or buy every bit of it.  I am able to use cow pies from my grandfathers farm though. 

[jvs]

Keith,
 
You said nothing in your original post that indicated to me that you knew that 7 ph was neutral.  You looked like you were struggling as to why your garden did not produce last year as you thought it should have.  I gave you suggestions as to what you could do to improve that condition.  I cant figure out why you didnt know last year that your ph was acidic before you even started.
 
Whether that is 'Horse Hockey' or not all depends on whether you have a blockade in the way you think.
 
If I were you I would do it your way and wait until it comes out as you want.  At least your planning isnt as poor as it was this time last year.
 
Good luck.

[Old Syko]

Keith you talk of using leaves from the woods floor.  This may not be the best thing for you.  Hickory leaves, as an example will do more harm than good.  I don't know the chemical compound that's to blame but I do know they will not help your situation from my own experience.  If you're thinking the nutrients are leaching away due to the slope of the ground then simply apply the stuff above your plot as well as in it.  As I said before, horse apples about 6 inches thick along with a good amount of lime (preferably dust rather than pelletized) and next year will be a different ballgame.  Wait until then to work the ground and it will be less likely to wash away. 

[keith44]

I can't remember the compound either, but I have Walnuts and Hickories only on the back 1/3 of the property.  The leaves in question are oak, maple, box elder, sassafras, dogwood, redbud and sycamore.  These are shredded and applied as a sheet compost along with grass clippings.  This can contribute to acidic soil conditions so lime must be applied when using these.  These make leaf mold and feed earthworms, that in turn feed the plants with their castings.  The worms also help loosen the compacted soil.

[blind ear]

One of the main reasons for raised bed is good internal soil drainage. Drainage, sounds like you already have that.
 
You can go with full time heavy mulch and not turn it under. 10 inches of mulch to control weeds, the mulch constantly feeds the compost on the bottom and the worms work for you.
 
You can check soil test and add what ammendments are needed. Where you want a row, pull back the straw, let it dry to working stage, add a little ammendment, plant, as the plants grow pull the mulch back to the plants and add baskets or stakes as you need them. ear

[keith44]

yup blind ear,

One of the main reasons for raised bed is good internal soil drainage. Drainage, sounds like you already have that.

too much of it, it is also used to help raise soil temps (since this is a northerly slope) I am hoping to control that drainage and slow it down a bit.  There is less than 1" of top soil there so it needs serious  soil building efforts.  The 10" of mulch is what I am trying in the first bed I built.

You can go with full time heavy mulch and not turn it under. 10 inches of mulch to control weeds, the mulch constantly feeds the compost on the bottom and the worms work for you.
 
You can check soil test and add what ammendments are needed. Where you want a row, pull back the straw, let it dry to working stage, add a little ammendment, plant, as the plants grow pull the mulch back to the plants and add baskets or stakes as you need them. ear

I was thinking trellising along the edge, and staking as needed, what would the basket be used for??  Cauliflower??

[keith44]

A  7 ph is considered neutral in most vegetable gardens, so it seems like you are still a little acidic.
 
What you might want to try is to get some leaves or leaf mulch, and add a little more lime, and till it under to get your ph up to 7.  There is a ph guide in the sticky's at the top of this forum.
 
Adding a few pounds of Epsom Salts and some 10-10-10 will help your production.  You can leave out the 10-10-10 if ou dont believe in using it.  But definitely use the Epsom Salt... Peppers love it.  Walmart sells it in the garden section when it is open.  They also have it in big containers in the drug section.
 
Any garden should have not less than 6 hours of direct sunlight a day.  If you dont have that, it will hurt.
 
I will be doing nothing in my garden until Spring.  Winter is about to arrive.

Well intentioned advice, poorly received. 


Here's why:


I have been involved with gardening for more than 40 years, so when I say the soil is acidic, I'm not guessing.  With acidic soil adding magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt) lowers the pH even further (makes the soil even more acidic) due to the sulfate (sulfur) component, commercial fertilizers also break down into salts and over time lower the pH also. 

Keith,
 
You said nothing in your original post that indicated to me that you knew that 7 ph was neutral.  You looked like you were struggling as to why your garden did not produce last year as you thought it should have.  I gave you suggestions as to what you could do to improve that condition.  I cant figure out why you didnt know last year that your ph was acidic before you even started.
 
Whether that is 'Horse Hockey' or not all depends on whether you have a blockade in the way you think.
 
If I were you I would do it your way and wait until it comes out as you want.  At least your planning isnt as poor as it was this time last year.
 
Good luck.

This past growing season was the first time I had worked the ground here, it was the first growing season after moving on to new property so poor planning does not apply as the soil tested at 6.4 pH which is where most plants grow best as there are more nutrients held in a state available for the plants to use.  So the "blockade in my thinking" was not posting the long version and assuming that anyone who would respond would have been aware of all of this.




So now that the miss understanding has been shown, I offer you an apology for not explaining my experience and goals and history with this ground and instead took the low road.  I am sorry JVS for my poor choice of words.

[longwinters]

I planted winter rye for something to till up in the spring.  We typically plant Memorial weekend.  I have drawn out the garden for what I will plant where.  My garden will be mostly raised beds 4-5 ft wide and 15-17 ft long, 12" high. I have 3 of them and will build 2 more in the spring.  Veggies are rotated yearly.  I also have areas that are permanently planted.  Blue berries, rasberries, grapes, asperagus and new this year black rasberries. Also I have 2 boxes for potatoes.  All winter I throw veggie scraps, egg shells, coffee grounds etc on the beds.  I'll check the beds in the spring for ph etc. 
 
I am already looking at what veggies worked well and what ones I will experiment with this coming year.  Also what flowers I want to grow to attract bees.  Can't wait til spring.
 
Long

[bilmac]

The thing about leaves is they are high in tannic acid. The species you mentioned are especially high.

[blind ear]

tomato baskets, bean steaks etc, nothing to do with the mulch. The trellis sounds good to keep the mulch from washing. If the trellis is pushed away by the mulch, terraceing must be the answer.
 
Is your soil mostly sand or clay? Clays have lots of nutrients but won't release them.
 
 IF you don't know you can dry a couple of cups of soil real well, grind to a powder, then put them in a quart jar full of water and shake it up real well. Then let it settle a couple of days and compare layers.
 
Or send a sample to your state ag college lab and let them tell you. They often do garden size samples for free.
 
 ear

[keith44]

well ear, the soil samples came back as medium clay loam, and Wilton Silt.  So I am hoping as the top soil is built I can get a better defination as to the composition of the soil.  With the heavy compaction and mixed results from the sample tests I am only sure that I do not have sandy soil 




So what you call a basket we call a cage, a cylinder of fence wire placed around a tomato plant for support.

[blind ear]

Yes on the tomato basket.
 
You may need to get someone to chisle plow  your soil 6 or 8 inches deep to get good root penetration. Makes amazing difference on clay base soils in plant developement due to root penetration. If you can't do it in time to get the 10" mulch on top just wait. Once it is wet it will be slow to dry. MIght try deep tilling a few spots with a shovel to plant to see what the response is. ear

[keith44]

The main garden responded well to "double digging" but I am not above hiring the neighbor to run a "bottoming plow" aka "sub soiler" over the area.  If I can get it done before the hard freezes come this will allow the natural freezing and thawing to help break up the soil.

[blind ear]

That sounds good. If you don't have them, get some hip boots. ha? ear

[keith44]

 

[keith44]

Keith you talk of using leaves from the woods floor.  This may not be the best thing for you.  Hickory leaves, as an example will do more harm than good.  I don't know the chemical compound that's to blame but I do know they will not help your situation from my own experience.  If you're thinking the nutrients are leaching away due to the slope of the ground then simply apply the stuff above your plot as well as in it.  As I said before, horse apples about 6 inches thick along with a good amount of lime (preferably dust rather than pelletized) and next year will be a different ballgame.  Wait until then to work the ground and it will be less likely to wash away.

I knew I would stumble across this eventually.  The chemical in Walnut, Pecan, and Hicory leaves, and especially the root systems of those trees is juglone.  It inhibits the germination of other plants.  The leaves should not be used as mulch, but can be composted with no ill effects.  Also you should not plant a garden near any of these, since this chemical is also present in the root system.