.410 brass blackopowder shot shell reloading.

[thejanitor]

I know many here will not do it, but for those of you loading Brass 410 shells with black powder which powder do I need? I have FFg and FFFG do I need the CTG powder or can what I have be used? If so where did you get the info, I would like to look more into this since I have shot and maybe powder already.... Thanks for any help. thejanitor

[darkgael]

Loading BP into .410 shotshells is problematic to begin with as there are no published dram equivalents for the little hull. Using brass hulls is even more of an issue - not necessarily dangerous, just more to figure out - because the interior of a drawn brass hull is larger than a plastic hull. Standard components are too small.
Circle Fly Wads offers a selection of properly sized traditional wads for .410 brass hulls.
You should be able to use FFFg  propellant. how much you are going to use depends on how much shot you are going to load and the wad column that you will build. That wad column will probably have a 1/8" Nitro card, fiber wads, about 1/2" or less of that, shot, a tight fitting overshot card glued in with Duco cement. You can make your own OS cards from a milk carton and a 7/16" punch.
If you use 1/2 oz of shot, you can "backfill" an  empty hull and see what space is left and how much powder it will hold.
I have used 35 grains of FFFg (that is about 1 1/4  drams) and 1/2oz of shot for a VERY full brass hull and minimal wadding - don't recall the height of the wad column.
Pete

[thejanitor]

Thank you, Circle fly was very helpful in telling me what all had to go into the hull, (what size I needed for true sized cases or the "off sized" mag tech)  I was just concerned as to which powder to use. I read "on line" which requires more research to confirm... that I can anneel and use 303 british brass and fire form it if I want it longer (better rim fit) than 444 brass (smaller rim that could miss the ejector but is shorter that 2.5 inches) Or buy magtech.  Rockymountain actually turns the brass from stock so it is the exact size of a plastic hull so modern components work and can use smokeless, but at 60+ $ for 25 cases I was trying to find an alternate route. Thank you for the reply. thejanitor

[darkgael]

Last time I checked, RMC was $68 for 20 .410 2 1/2" hulls. Worth every penny. Take reasonable care of them and they will out last you. And...they are true to gauge (or bore in this case.)
.303 British cases can be used. They are shorter when done as noted and the head does not blow out completely. You must anneal them before trying to fireform. About five grains of Bullseye, a wad and cornmeal to the case mouth. Seal with wax. Fire. If you get 50%, you are good.
  Loading. You cut down a plastic wad and seal the case with a .45 cal fiber or cardboard wad and Duco cement. Modern wads are preferable ( though BP melts them) because you get the maximum amount of shot in - still less than 1/2 oz. I suppose that one could use a thin fiber wad over  the powder and a Wonder wad atop that for another option. I haven't tried that (but I will).
Pete

[Swampman]

I'd use .444 cases....FF...FFF...or any of the subs will work.  It's very easy.

[thejanitor]

Thanks guys this is the stuff I need to know! If there is a little less shot in the case but the recipe is ok with it then no biggie for me, my son is getting a .410 barrel this christmas for his H&R and I really hate how they price .410 shells. If they costed the same as 12 ga I would be fine with it, but 3x the price is stupid- they can keep them.
Question on cutting down a plastic wad- if the wad/shot cup is skinnier than the case won't it be ruptured upon firing anyway? And will lead shot really hurt the bore? I shoot lead shot (even copper) in my muzzle loader and I don't think it has been any worse for wear.
Does anyone have any black powder load data (printed) for the .410? I am going to do this this way so will figure it out, but if I saw it in a load book I would sure feel better trying it. Thanks thejanitor

[darkgael]

Does any one have any black powder load data (printed) for the .410?

I have never seen any in a load book.
There is, however, useful data in Ronald Gabriel's :"American and British .410 Shotguns". Chapter three discusses the ballistics of the shell and includes proof house data from the turn of the Century. This data is in the form of BP dram references and so is useful for loading.
The range of acceptable loads is from 3/4 of a dram of BP (about 21 grains)  with 3/8ths ounce of shot to 2 1/4 drams BP (about 61 grains)  with 3/8ths oz. of shot.
There is a whole series of references for 2.5 inch hulls.  The most common one is similar to my earlier suggestion of 35 grains and 1/2 oz. of shot. The reference is to 1 1/4 drams (34 grains) of BP and either 1/2 or 9/16ths ounces of shot. This proofing requirement was later (1911) changed to 1 1/2 drams of BP (about 41 grains)  for 11/16ths oz. of shot in a 2.5 inch hull.
The ISBN # for the book is 0-87349-679-5.

Pete

[Swampman]

I'd just use a shot card or a pinch of hornets nest over the powder and over the shot.  Equal volume of powder and shot.

[darkgael]

I'd just use a shot card or a pinch of hornets nest over the powder and over the shot.  Equal volume of powder and shot.

Yeah...that'll probably work; it does in muzzleloaders.

Pete

[thejanitor]

OK I know when we load Muzzle loaders Black powder is measured in volume grains in stead of weight grains.... is that how the 34 grains number was established? I can measure either way I just do not want to be 4 gr off by weighing it instead of going by volume. Thanks guys! thejanitor

[Swampman]

It's by volume.  Get a blackpowder measure and use equal amounts of shot and powder.

[darkgael]

OK I know when we load Muzzle loaders Black powder is measured in volume grains in stead of weight grains.... is that how the 34 grains number was established? I can measure either way I just do not want to be 4 gr off by weighing it instead of going by volume. Thanks guys! thejanitor

It's by volume.  Get a blackpowder measure and use equal amounts of shot and powder.

I beg to differ. The loads to which I referred are from data established at the Birmingham Proof House. We are not discussing muzzleloaders here despite my earlier reference vis a vis the hornet's nest wadding. These are shotshells and have a different set of rules.
When this data was established, they were not loading by volume, they were weighing the charges.
The good news is that, if you were four grains off with BP, it wouldn't matter a whole lot, if at all.

Here is what happens when you load equal/equal by volume (and I know this because I just did it). If you weigh out 1/2 oz. of # 7.5 shot (218  grains), you  will find that it fills precisely a 2.8cc Lee  dipper. If you then take that same dipper and use it to measure a BP charge, you will get a charge of 40-41 grains (depending on the brand of powder and the granulation). The standard for 1/2oz BP loads is 1 1/4 drams or 34 grains.
Pete
Pete

[Swampman]

All I know is that equal volume works great, and that hornet's nest doesn't set the woods on fire.

[thejanitor]

Thank you guys, I just wanted to verify the volume/wt thing.  I appreciate the help and hope to get the stuff I need after Christmas.   thejanitor

[Froghunter]

Janitor,
Here is a link and good read that maybe helpful to you in your BP 410 reloading!
Enjoy the Holiday!
Froghunter
http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

[darkgael]

Thanks for that link. I was happy to see his table concerning the differences in the weight of various powders at the same volume. Reading that led me to other links, one of which produced this table which compares more powder weights at a more standard volume. This one mirrors my own experience with Swiss and Goex.

Here's the weight of the b.p's I have on hand with the powder measure set to dispense 40.0 grs. of Swiss FFG:
Lightest to heaviest
KIK 2F.............33.7
GOEX 3F..........35.6
GOEX 2F......... 35.8
SCHUETZEN 2F 37.0
SCHUETZEN 3F 37.2
SWISS 1 1/2 F..39.0
SWISS 3F.........39.3
SWISS 2F.........40.0

So....if you and I were shooting together and everything else was the same, excepting that I was using KiK BP and you were using Swiss, every time that we loaded our guns using only volume as a guide, you would be using nearly 16% more powder than I. Kinda explains why Swiss has a reputation as a Hot powder. It is denser, there is more in the charge.
Relate that to the shotshells in question. A 35 grain load of Goex is right on the money. Use the same measure for Swiss and you will have more powder in the hull, same volume but more weight.
Pete

[Swampman]

It's not really important.

[bilmac]

I used to make shells out of 30-40 Krag too. If I remember right I had to thin the rim a bit. I thinned the underside but with a drill press and file it wasn't hard. A little bigger rim made me more confident they would extract every time.

You guys must live where there are a whole lot of hornets, if I had to depend on them I would have about 5 shots a year. Dad hunted with a muzzle loader shotgun when he was a kid, said they just used newspaper for wadding. I guess if that has a reputation for starting fires I would treat some paper with fire retardant, or try to locate fire retardant paper. I'd bet the paper facing off wall insulation is treated.