Buds Guns Straw Purchase for a Handi

[RIF]

My wife recently 'won' a handi on Gunbroker from Buds Guns for my Christmas gift.  I am a rookie as far as the online auctions go.  On top of all that I am having issues with my gmail email account, the one that gunbroker sends their emails through.  Another computer got into that account and sent everyone who had sent me an email an email back.  And now that account is frozen. 

Sooooo, I could not get into it to email Buds and set up payment.  So I did the logical thing, I called them and had the auction number and my credit card.  They asked if I was my wife.  I said no. The gunbroker account is in her name.  They said well we cannot ship a gun to your dealer as that would be a straw purchase which is a felony.  I said that it would not be a felony because the gun was not transferred into anyones name yet!!  Until it reached to the FFL and I did the background check, then (in my state) after they Feds ran my background and I came up clear the gun would be in my name. 

If I were to then give the rifle to someone that could not otherwise pass the background check then that would be a straw purchase. 

Buds said no, it was a felony just to ship it to the dealer since my wife had won the gun! 

I think they are washed up and think they know things they have no clue about.  They said that if they were doing something illegal they would lie, not saying that I was lying or anything.  I said I understood that, but I was not doing anything illegal.  The gun would be transferred into my name at the dealer. 

For some reason I thought that was what the FFL dealer on my end and the background check were for.

So I said fine.  Forget the one that my wife won, just order one in my name and we will sort the other one out later once I get the email account going.  They said that was the last one they could get.  I said I thought they did drop shipments direct from the manufacturer as I thought they did not actually stock most of the guns they have for sale in their personal warehouse. 

Is this the sort of run around treatment Buds usually gives customers? 

I am about to wash my hands of these jerks. 

If I am spreading fud and washed up myself PLEASE let me know I do not have a problem eating crow. 

End of rant. 

Thanks

[quickdtoo]

I've ordered several guns and a couple barrels and scopes from Bud's, while they're a little slow, they always come thru just fine with no problems, they just shipped a 45 Colt Carbine today that I ordered on the 4th, but they're back logged in shipping due to the 4-day UPS shutdown for Thanksgiving.

Tim

[45-70.gov]

buds   is making a  ''dealer to dealer'' transaction


any one thinking this is or could be a  ''straw purchase''  is an  idiot!!


maybe  if  buds  had reason to beleive your FFL guy was the straw purchaser
in that case  he should contact  the ATFE or local law


he may  suspect you are  up to a straw purchase  once it reaches  your dealer
and  if so should pass his suspicions to your local dealer  to be on the look out
or  contact your  local  police


MAYBE  HE THINKS YOUR PART  OF  ''FAST AND FURIOUS''
WORKING WITH  OBUMER AND  HOLDER AND THE MEXICANS

[keith44]

with the heavy regulations on the gun trade in general I can't say I am surprised at this.  With the sale tied to an e-mail account and one persons name, then someone else calls and tries to offer payment over the phone...well I would have been suspicious.   Have the wife call and try it herself, that may work better.


Good luck, be patient.

[quickdtoo]

with the heavy regulations on the gun trade in general I can't say I am surprised at this.  With the sale tied to an e-mail account and one persons name, then someone else calls and tries to offer payment over the phone...well I would have been suspicious.   Have the wife call and try it herself, that may work better.


Good luck, be patient.

+1, don't give up yet,  Bud's has a lot to loose gambling on a possible illegal sale, they aren't going to take any chances, loosing their license would be catastrophic to the business.

Tim

[jy951]

I think Buds seems reasonable on this.  If you have one person purchase a gun and another one pick it up, that appears like a straw purchase.  The facts are; One person pays for it and a different person is picking it up.  Try doing that at your local gun shop and see what they say.   

The easiest solution is for your wife to call buds and have them ship it and her pick it up.  Then have her transfer it to you in a legal manner.

[JB White]

This may be due to the fact you initiated the transfer in someone elses name (your wifes), and aren't the FFL holder. Any FFL transfer I have ever done had to be done by direct FFL to FFL contact prior to shipping. Even if it's as simple as a fax with confirmation they were willing to accept the firearm.
To clean things up now that Bud's is aware of the circumstances, try having your wife go through your FFL and have them contact Buds with all pertainent information. That way Bud's knows they are releasing the correct firearm earmarked for the correct person via dealer tranfer. These things must be neat and tidy with no loose seams.

[bikerbeans]

It ain't just Buds.  I once bought some bullets from Grafs and tried to ship them directly to a friend of mine as part of a trade.  The phone was real busy for a day or two before the bullets finally were shipped to my friend. 
 
BB

[45-70.gov]

can  anyone tell me how a dealer to dealer transaction
can be construed to be a ''straw purchase''??
i really want to know   as i do several internet sales a month


i can  understand them  ONLY  dealing with the owner  of the gunbroker account
for  a number  of reasons.......but  not shipping to another  FFL   is not a reason


so  just let the  actual person  whose account it  is deal with them

[quickdtoo]

It ain't just Buds.  I once bought some bullets from Grafs and tried to ship them directly to a friend of mine as part of a trade.  The phone was real busy for a day or two before the bullets finally were shipped to my friend. 
 
BB

That had more to do with the shipping address not matching the credit card billing address which is a Grafs requirement, I've had the same problem with them since my CC billing address is a PO Box, but Grafs "free" shipping won't go there, so I had to make arrangements with them first. FWIW I've ordered stuff from Midway and had it shipped to an alternate address with no problems, they didn't care.

Tim

[dave29]

It ain't just Buds.  I once bought some bullets from Grafs and tried to ship them directly to a friend of mine as part of a trade.  The phone was real busy for a day or two before the bullets finally were shipped to my friend. 
 
BB

That had more to do with the shipping address not matching the credit card billing address which is a Grafs requirement, I've had the same problem with them since my CC billing address is a PO Box, but Grafs "free" shipping won't go there, so I had to make arrangements with them first. FWIW I've ordered stuff from Midway and had it shipped to an alternate address with no problems, they didn't care.

Tim

That happened to me today with a Grafs order.

[jy951]

can  anyone tell me how a dealer to dealer transaction
can be construed to be a ''straw purchase''??
i really want to know   as i do several internet sales a month


i can  understand them  ONLY  dealing with the owner  of the gunbroker account
for  a number  of reasons.......but  not shipping to another  FFL   is not a reason


so  just let the  actual person  whose account it  is deal with them

This is not dealer to dealer transaction.  If it were, one dealer would pay the other dealer for the gun.  This is a situation where one person won (same as paid for) a gun.  The receiving dealer did not purchase the gun for resale.  He is just taking delivery for the person that won it.

[Hit or Miss]

I think it is BS, Bud's people are wrong on this one.  Here's why I think that.  Your wife set up an online account with Gunbroker to bid on this gun from Bud's.  How have they verified that it was actually her that set it up?  How do they even know whether or not it was some dude from anywhere who set up the account?  My point is that this is an anonymous transaction between 4 entities, only one of whom can actually verify who the end purchaser of the gun is.  That would be the shop where the gun is shipped to who will have the 4473 filled out and the NICS check ran.


Now, I can see where they wouldn't ship the gun based on a phone call (even with the correct information on the auction).  That would have nothing to do with a straw purchase though.  They would just be protecting themselves from shipping the gun to the wrong person with the right info.

[dant]

I "won" a Encore frame from Buds as well. Same situation, gunbroker account in my wifes name. They didn't want to sell/ship to me either, I just paid with my wifes debit card and had it sent to my dealer in her name. He had no problem doing the paperwork and PICS in my name.
 
 

[gcrank1]

This is a classic CYA situation, Bud's doesnt need any trouble and is not even going to get close to trouble. Would you for someone you dont know from Adam?
Yes, it is aggravating, and yes, there are ways to make this work. Take a deep breath, do it as needs to be done and once it is all over you smile and have some shooting fun.

[45-70.gov]

can  anyone tell me how a dealer to dealer transaction
can be construed to be a ''straw purchase''??
i really want to know   as i do several internet sales a month


i can  understand them  ONLY  dealing with the owner  of the gunbroker account
for  a number  of reasons.......but  not shipping to another  FFL   is not a reason


so  just let the  actual person  whose account it  is deal with them

This is not dealer to dealer transaction.  If it were, one dealer would pay the other dealer for the gun.  This is a situation where one person won (same as paid for) a gun.  The receiving dealer did not purchase the gun for resale.  He is just taking delivery for the person that won it.

buds  ships   his product to a FFL....like myself
then  that dealer  is respncible for  making a legal trans action
unless  bud  KNEW  that dealer  was going to break the law
and  of corse  that dealer  is basicaly a legal straw purchase


buds  is  not allow to sell guns  out  of state to ant one
only to another FFL
there for no straw purchase

[tobster]

FWIW- I was in a local gun shop where a guy was in the process of buying a handgun. He casually mentioned he was going to give it to his wife for Christmas. The dealer promptly refused to continue the transaction. I can understand Bud's position if your wife was the person who won the gun and they knew it was going to end up in your hands. If I owned a gunshop I would error on the side of the ATF. A gunshop without a FFL isn't much of a gunshop.

[GWC]

 45-70, you're exactly right. More here than meets the eye or the boys at Bud's need a little schooling on how this works. The FFL recieving the gun is responsible for the paperwork/background checks as the gun becomes his inventory when it comes into his possession, that's why you have to ship to a licensed dealer(FFL).

[JB White]

Gentlemen, I see it as Bud's making sure they are directing the rifle to the actual  person who paid for it and delivery isn't being hijacked somehow. There are just too many possibilities when other people start to get involved.
 They might believe everything but simply aren't going to take chances. All it takes is one little mishap to have the books audited. Even if there are no violations found the audit can stop business for a couple of days. Happened to a local dealer here. For two days his inventory was frozen while his books were checked. No firearms sales or deliveries. Now he double checks to make sure all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed even if you've been a 30 year customer.

[RIF]

We emailed them yesterday after having changed our gunbroker contact email to a working one.  No reply so far. 

Anyway...

We then changed the owner name on the gunbroker account from my wifes to my name.  It took a few seconds is all. 

I just called an paid for it even though she only had the old info she gladly changed the purchaser to my name!  The lady I dealt with did not see this as any kind of straw purchase.

Holy smokes how hard did that have to be!

[OldSchoolRanger]

We emailed them yesterday after having changed our gunbroker contact email to a working one.  No reply so far. 

Anyway...

We then changed the owner name on the gunbroker account from my wifes to my name.  It took a few seconds is all. 

I just called an paid for it even though she only had the old info she gladly changed the purchaser to my name!  The lady I dealt with did not see this as any kind of straw purchase.

Holy smokes how hard did that have to be!

I think you got someone who actually understands how to read the definition of "straw purchase".  45-70.gov is correct, the transaction between Bud's and your FFL, is exactly that an FFL to FFL transfer.  Your FFL is the responsible party in making sure there is no "straw purchase".

I think it is BS, Bud's people are wrong on this one.  Here's why I think that.  Your wife set up an online account with Gunbroker to bid on this gun from Bud's.  How have they verified that it was actually her that set it up?  How do they even know whether or not it was some dude from anywhere who set up the account?  My point is that this is an anonymous transaction between 4 entities, only one of whom can actually verify who the end purchaser of the gun is.  That would be the shop where the gun is shipped to who will have the 4473 filled out and the NICS check ran.


Now, I can see where they wouldn't ship the gun based on a phone call (even with the correct information on the auction).  That would have nothing to do with a straw purchase though.  They would just be protecting themselves from shipping the gun to the wrong person with the right info.

Gun Broker requires you to provide a credit card account number and the billing address to verify your identity, before they allow you to set up a Gun Broker account.

[RIF]

We emailed them yesterday after having changed our gunbroker contact email to a working one.  No reply so far. 

Anyway...

We then changed the owner name on the gunbroker account from my wifes to my name.  It took a few seconds is all. 

I just called an paid for it even though she only had the old info she gladly changed the purchaser to my name!  The lady I dealt with did not see this as any kind of straw purchase.

Holy smokes how hard did that have to be!

I think you got someone who actually understands how to read the definition of "straw purchase".  45-70.gov is correct, the transaction between Bud's and your FFL, is exactly that an FFL to FFL transfer.  Your FFL is the responsible party in making sure there is no "straw purchase".

I think it is BS, Bud's people are wrong on this one.  Here's why I think that.  Your wife set up an online account with Gunbroker to bid on this gun from Bud's.  How have they verified that it was actually her that set it up?  How do they even know whether or not it was some dude from anywhere who set up the account?  My point is that this is an anonymous transaction between 4 entities, only one of whom can actually verify who the end purchaser of the gun is.  That would be the shop where the gun is shipped to who will have the 4473 filled out and the NICS check ran.


Now, I can see where they wouldn't ship the gun based on a phone call (even with the correct information on the auction).  That would have nothing to do with a straw purchase though.  They would just be protecting themselves from shipping the gun to the wrong person with the right info.

Gun Broker requires you to provide a credit card account number and the billing address to verify your identity, before they allow you to set up a Gun Broker account.

You are right they want a credit card...the one she used to set it up is in MY NAME!  LOL.  This is not meant to replace a background check...And they only want a credit card IF you are a seller.  If you are a buyer no credit card is needed.  We sold a gun when we first set it up and needed the pertinent info.  Gunbroker wants their money, and in the event of fruad they need the digits for that. 

Anyway, I got frustrated yesterday.  Today I really did not care one way or the other and was about ready to write them off.  And it was no problem.  Perhaps it is just another life lesson. 

This was really the fault of an employee that did not know what was going on.  I will try to not use Buds in the future as I think they are too big to really care much about little ol me. 

[jy951]

Glad you got your problem solved without too much hassle. 


I think that if the payer is not the same as the person picking up the gun, then it can be construed as a straw purchase.  It does not matter if it is shipped to another ffl.


Imagine this scenario:  Your local gun shop sells something at gun auction to Joe Blow.  Joe Blow makes payment and then instructs gun shop that John Smith is going to pick up the gun.  Do you think your dealer will let John Smith pick it up? 


Now lets say Joe Blow sends payment for the gun and tells the local gun shop to ship it to another FFL for John Smith to pick up.  Is there any difference?  Just because it is shipped to another FFL does not mean it can't be a straw purchase.  Yes, the local FFL has to run the background check, but that does not mean it's not a straw purchase.  The facts are you have one indivual paying for an item and another picking it up.   

[jeff686]

Glad you got your problem solved without too much hassle. 


I think that if the payer is not the same as the person picking up the gun, then it can be construed as a straw purchase.  It does not matter if it is shipped to another ffl.


Imagine this scenario:  Your local gun shop sells something at gun auction to Joe Blow.  Joe Blow makes payment and then instructs gun shop that John Smith is going to pick up the gun.  Do you think your dealer will let John Smith pick it up? 


Now lets say Joe Blow sends payment for the gun and tells the local gun shop to ship it to another FFL for John Smith to pick up.  Is there any difference?  Just because it is shipped to another FFL does not mean it can't be a straw purchase.  Yes, the local FFL has to run the background check, but that does not mean it's not a straw purchase.  The facts are you have one indivual paying for an item and another picking it up.   

It doesn't matter who pays for it, how they pay, or how much they pay.  Neither does it matter who ships it or where your FFL is located.  A straw purchase occurs if the person on the 4473 is not the intended owner. 

When I got my birthday Handi, my family went to the store's gun counter.  I completed the 4473, got the background check completed, and approved.  They then walked me to the checkout stand, shook my hand and said farewell.  I could have paid the gum chewing pony-tailed checkout girl using my good looks, if she would accept it.  In this case, my wife wrote a check.

[OldSchoolRanger]

Glad you got your problem solved without too much hassle. 


I think that if the payer is not the same as the person picking up the gun, then it can be construed as a straw purchase.  It does not matter if it is shipped to another ffl.


Imagine this scenario:  Your local gun shop sells something at gun auction to Joe Blow.  Joe Blow makes payment and then instructs gun shop that John Smith is going to pick up the gun.  Do you think your dealer will let John Smith pick it up? 


Now lets say Joe Blow sends payment for the gun and tells the local gun shop to ship it to another FFL for John Smith to pick up.  Is there any difference?  Just because it is shipped to another FFL does not mean it can't be a straw purchase.  Yes, the local FFL has to run the background check, but that does not mean it's not a straw purchase.  The facts are you have one indivual paying for an item and another picking it up.   

That's not what a straw purchase is.  You can look up what a  "straw purchase" is, directly on the BATF website.

http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/episode-4.html

[RIF]

Glad you got your problem solved without too much hassle. 


I think that if the payer is not the same as the person picking up the gun, then it can be construed as a straw purchase.  It does not matter if it is shipped to another ffl.


Imagine this scenario:  Your local gun shop sells something at gun auction to Joe Blow.  Joe Blow makes payment and then instructs gun shop that John Smith is going to pick up the gun.  Do you think your dealer will let John Smith pick it up? 


Now lets say Joe Blow sends payment for the gun and tells the local gun shop to ship it to another FFL for John Smith to pick up.  Is there any difference?  Just because it is shipped to another FFL does not mean it can't be a straw purchase.  Yes, the local FFL has to run the background check, but that does not mean it's not a straw purchase.  The facts are you have one indivual paying for an item and another picking it up.   

That's not what a straw purchase is.  You can look up what a  "straw purchase" is, directly on the BATF website.

http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/episode-4.html

So let me get this straight I am Bobby, my wife is Mr. Thomas, Buds is Mr. Lucas, and the salesman was Carla? 

So let me ask the rocket scientists at the ATF a question.  WHO THE H EEEEE DOUBLE L is my dealer in this scenario?

I will call him Mr. Gin

Mr. Lucas  "Is this the owner of Guns For Grannies?"
Mr. Gin:  "Yes this is he."
Mr. Lucas: "Bobby called and wanted to pay for the gun Mr. Thomas had won on gunbroker"
Mr. Gin: "What!?"

This isn't crazy is it?

[45-70.gov]

FWIW- I was in a local gun shop where a guy was in the process of buying a handgun. He casually mentioned he was going to give it to his wife for Christmas. The dealer promptly refused to continue the transaction. I can understand Bud's position if your wife was the person who won the gun and they knew it was going to end up in your hands. If I owned a gunshop I would error on the side of the ATF. A gunshop without a FFL isn't much of a gunshop.

THIS  IS A LEGAL  SALE
you can buy a gun as a gift providing the recipient is not restricted
....in  these  cases  i prefer to let them have the box and  have the intended person pick it up
those  are my rules......not  ATF
i convince the cutomer it will avoid futre complications


ATF  audits have never hindered me in any way
in  fact  i like the occasional visit  to make sure  i am doing it right

[OldSchoolRanger]

So let me get this straight I am Bobby, my wife is Mr. Thomas, Buds is Mr. Lucas, and the salesman was Carla? 

So let me ask the rocket scientists at the ATF a question.  WHO THE H EEEEE DOUBLE L is my dealer in this scenario?

I will call him Mr. Gin

Mr. Lucas  "Is this the owner of Guns For Grannies?"
Mr. Gin:  "Yes this is he."
Mr. Lucas: "Bobby called and wanted to pay for the gun Mr. Thomas had won on gunbroker"
Mr. Gin: "What!?"

This isn't crazy is it?

Without a doubt.  Nobody said the BATF knew what they were doing.    Just gave you the site, so you could do the research, and drive yourself nuts. 

[OldSchoolRanger]

FWIW- I was in a local gun shop where a guy was in the process of buying a handgun. He casually mentioned he was going to give it to his wife for Christmas. The dealer promptly refused to continue the transaction. I can understand Bud's position if your wife was the person who won the gun and they knew it was going to end up in your hands. If I owned a gunshop I would error on the side of the ATF. A gunshop without a FFL isn't much of a gunshop.

THIS  IS A LEGAL  SALE
you can buy a gun as a gift providing the recipient is not restricted
....in  these  cases  i prefer to let them have the box and  have the intended person pick it up
those  are my rules......not  ATF
i convince the cutomer it will avoid futre complications


ATF  audits have never hindered me in any way
in  fact  i like the occasional visit  to make sure  i am doing it right

+ 1 , your a 100% correcto!