Grapes, grasses, Rabbits, Deer, Squirrel, Wildlife Food Plots, Rooting

[keith44]

I have an area I am clearing of brambles. The area, like most of my property, has a bit of slope to it.  This will be parallel to a powerline right of way that I am seeding to grasses for rabbit and deer.  Now this is where I may be getting foolish, but I would like to put in a grape arbor.  Grapes I have no experience with, so the reason for this post is mostly about the grapes, but the fact is rabbit, deer and squirrels frequent this area, alot. 


So usda zone 5, clay silt loam soil on a slope, in presumed unfarmed reclaimed from nature ground that is most likely acidic.  I want a good bunching table grape that can also be used for wine making.  I am wanting early and late season varieties 3 or 4 vines each.  What varieties should I look at? How much room do each need?  Since wild grapes grow well in surrounding areas does this mean cultured varieties should grow well??  What types of grasses will be best used around the vines (vines will have mulch around them, but I need grasses to grow to hold the soil from erosion.  The grasses also need to be rhyzome free (I want to hunt healthy rabbits) for the native wildlife to feed on.  Will the grape vines need some kind of protection from the local wildlife??

[jvs]

I put in Concord Grapes 3 years ago.  From what I read they are supposed to be native to America.  I have harvested grapes for the first time this year and came out fairly well.  I expect to be taking a whole lot more in the next few years.
 
I also have Deer, Rabbits and Squirrels in the vicinity most of the year and have had absolutely no problems with them at all.  They visit from local wood lots. 
 
However, Birds are another story.  I will be buying netting next year for the Grape crop.  Catbirds -particularly are a big problem.
 
Is your area prone to Acid Rain?  I know Pennsylvania's rain is somewhat acidic because of the coal fired power plant smoke stacks west of this state, and can be a problem for acid conditions for the forrest, the farmer and the gardener.

[keith44]

there have been no announcements about acid rain, however there are three coal fired generation plants (electricity generators) and four aluminum smelters within 100 miles so I am sure there are acidic compounds in the rain we do get.


Concorde is a red grape isn't it??


I put in some blueberry bushes in September, and have been warned that the deer will eat the bushes to the ground if not fenced (warned by a neighbor)  So I had planned to fence them and put bird netting over the top of the enclosure.  I'll just buy extra to put over the grape vines (mini-vineyard)

[jvs]

Normally, Concord Grapes are more deep purple than red, but if the experts want to call them red, that's ok with me.  I think someone fooled around with them genetically and may have come out with a Green Concord, but I am not sure.
 
Concord Grapes are great table fare, good winmakers and perfect for jelly and juice.  A good all-around grape.  The only thing 'bad' about them is they are NOT seedless.
 
You are correct, Deer will chew Blueberrys to the ground if given a chance.  A deer fence may be needed to keep them out.
 
As far as grasses go for around your grapes, I used black weed fabric and mulch around the bases.  It works.

[Graybeard]

Deer are no problem for my blueberry orchard. From time to time we'll see droppings from deer in the orchard but they seem content to eat a few berries and move on. Squirrels take more berries than deer from us. Birds take a heavy toll each year.

Personally I'd not worry much about deer damaging your blueberries. Around residential neighborhoods where there are too many deer and little to no hunting they might be a problem but around here they just don't mess with our blueberries that much.

[Old Syko]

The deer tend to walk around the blueberries to get to the strawberries around here.  Don't matter.  Got plenty of both.  The blasted birds tend to annihilate blueberries, grapes, blackberries and raspberries unless we take drastic measures.  The most effective measure is to play predatory bird recordings through a speaker in the general vicinity but it drives you nuts to hear all day.  I've had starlings find a way to get under netting and eat their fill then leave the same way they got in.

[blind ear]

for young sprouts, new grape vines, seedling trees, you might want to protect them with a circle of wire or something to keep the rabbits from cutting them off until they are too big to bite through, even for cotton patch rabbits.
 
Rabbits will normally scrape some berry briar stems like black berries but cause no real harm. Cotton patch rabbits won't do much harm unless food is scarce.
 
Swamp rabbits will normally feed on the soft inner material of vines, stems and twigs. thus the name "cain cutter". Doesn't sound like your local is cain cutter habitat, thick cutover with lots or hollow logs, vines, briars and heavy low transitional growth areas.
 
ear

[reliquary]

I'm in lower Zone 8, East Texas.  Lots of experience with grapes, some good.      I place the black weed-preventer fabric around the roots and mulch heavily.  FWIW, I don't let my vines set fruit for the first couple of years, may not be really necessary, but I like to give them an extra chance to put out roots.  Too many fruiting things will overload themselves and do themselves harm, if not tended.  I've planted clover around a couple, and that seems to be okay.
 
Don't overlook the desirability of taking cuttings or rootings from productive, native vines in your area.
 
Concord is the old reliable of grapes.  I have two varieties, commercial variety and from a local vine. The commercial variety is more weather-sensitive; the country vines even produced well in this year's drought. Both kinds normally do well here. They are more blue-purple than red.
 
Lakemont is an excellent seedless combo table/preserving grape.  This was its first year to produce and I got about 20 pounds off it.  I've had the Thompson seedless in the past but this area is a little too warm for them.
 
I have one Black Spanish that I let produce one cluster to see if I like it.  It's a keeper.
 
I have one bronze muscadine vine over 10 years old, produces 6-8 gallons of fruit every year.  Don't overlook those.
 
Rabbits are not a problem ( I'm fenced).  Birds are a problem, but they don't really eat enough for me to buy netting.  Deer are a problem.  They love the fruit and will even eat the leaves.  Coons, possums, squirrels, and stray children come by to snack, also. 
 
Here's what you have to consider:  There's no such thing as planting vines, and expecting them to produce very much without tending.  If left to themselves, they will tend to just keep growing and not produce much fruit.  Prepare yourself for tending and pruning.
 
 

[keith44]

reliquary, thanks that is the same kind of information I have been reading about all grapes, pruning, tending, and different methods of training.  Looking like Concorde will be the first I try, are they "self pollinating"?

[reliquary]

As far as I know, they are.  I've had "single vines" and they seem to do okay.  Most sources of info say about the same thing...amazing, huh?
 
My supports are mostly scavenged.  Drill pipe in sackcrete, crossbar with clothesline wire, etc. In fact, one set of support posts IS scavenged clothesline poles.
 
There are several methods of training, but the simplest and least labor-intensive work well for me. I let each vine run about 5-6' in each direction, keep it to one main vine, trim all the "bearers" back close to the main vine in Dec.  I have to continually trim extra limbs  and terminal growth from the main vine throughout the growing season, maybe a once-a-week job, and cut off the clusters that I don't want to grow. 
 
The muscadine goes about 10' in either direction, but I'm going to trim it back after this season.  Found a producing wild vine, blue, that I have a cutting from, that will be mature enough to reach the support wire this coming season.  A nurseryman friend told me that 90% of all wild vines are sterile, so it's difficult to find one that is useful to take a cutting from.
 
Even with the critter problems, we harvest way more than we can easily use.  One neighbor makes a decent wine from some of the excess.

[blind ear]

Reli[uary;
 
I have heard the 90% steril also. How about about saving seed and planting them and then grafting from the produceing vine onto the seed root stock?  I think it would work and be worthwhile in building an orchard.
 
ear

[bilmac]

I don't understand your grass with rhyzomes comment. Rhyzomes are an offshoot that roots and produces another plant. The disadvantage of plants that spread this way is that they are very tough and hard to get rid of. The advantage is that they are very tough and hard to destroy.

It sounds like you live in the north east. I don't know the grasses well enough there to recommend anything, except that a brome would probably work about anywhere.

[reliquary]

Very few, maybe one or two, of the vines that I've let run wild that have come up from seed have been producers.  I don't understand that either.  The easiest is just to get a cutting from a producer and root it.
 
The commercial varieties of grapes are often grafted onto a "wild" rootstock, just as with fruit trees. That's one good use for sterile vines.  My commercial Concord sent up a runner from its roots this year from where I tilled too close to it; it had one cluster that looked & tasted like a Mustang.  I cut it loose and have it running up a persimmon tree in the back yard.  WTH. 
 
I've thought that maybe some of the wild vines nearby have just "gone to branches", so I cut them back, but none have ever produced.

[blind ear]

reliquary;
are muscadines easy to root?
Thanks, ear

[keith44]

I don't understand your grass with rhizomes comment. Rhizomes are an offshoot that roots and produces another plant. The disadvantage of plants that spread this way is that they are very tough and hard to get rid of. The advantage is that they are very tough and hard to destroy.

It sounds like you live in the north east. I don't know the grasses well enough there to recommend anything, except that a brome would probably work about anywhere.

while I am growing fruits and veggies and excluding the wildlife from the planted areas as best I can, the native grasses here in Ky are "clump" grasses, propagated by seed only and not rhizomes.  The clumping types are preferred for wildlife habitat, the longer wider blades of these grasses also are great for mulching.  Even though the rabbits and birds are the most likely to steal the fruits or damage the vines I also want to keep them around.  Gives the Beagle something to look forward to  the non-native grasses just do not provide the cover and food for them to survive.  Think field and hay grasses.

[jvs]

Maybe a Wildlife Food Plot would work, as long as you are in the planning stages.
 
I understand they work well.  Kind of lets the wildlife know where they are welcome.
 
here is a website concerning wildlife food plots:
 
 http://ohioline.osu.edu/w-fact/0019.html

[keith44]

Maybe a Wildlife Food Plot would work, as long as you are in the planning stages.
 
I understand they work well.  Kind of lets the wildlife know where they are welcome.
 
here is a website concerning wildlife food plots:
 
 http://ohioline.osu.edu/w-fact/0019.html

hmm, I guess I am hoping to be able to kinda do both in the same area.  I think I need to stop and study this for a bit.

[jvs]

Maybe in the same general area.  Wildlife wont recognize boundries between what can be eaten. 
 
I would have an open space between what can be theirs and what is yours. 
 
I think overall the concept of a food plot is a pretty good idea.  As long as you can get the seed in small enough batches without having to buy in bulk.

[blind ear]

If you can raise rabbits with the cover you have, with an ample food supply you can raise deer. the addition of the right native foods will promote quail also. The rabbits and quail may need protection from coyotes like brush piles, hollow logs or three stack log pyramids and preadator hunting to protect nests and small animals. ear

[reliquary]

Ear:  muscadines root just like grapes for me...they're just thickskinned, later-in-the-season grapes.
 
Take about a 4"  new growth in the spring from last year's bud, dip  cut bud end in hormone, put in potting soil.  More than half the things I set out this way will root.
 
FWIW, there are several things that a homemade rooting hormone works better on.  Take a slick-bark willow limb (new growth), trim a handful of the bark off, steep the bark in a quart jar of rainwater for a few days.  You can either dip the cut end of whatever is to be rooted in the brew and then put it in the potting soil, or just leave it in the brew till the rootbuds appear and then put it in the potting soil. 
 
This works really well for me for rooting "tree" cuttings.  I would say "woody", but some might misunderstand. 
 
 

[keith44]

Ear:  muscadines root just like grapes for me...they're just thickskinned, later-in-the-season grapes.
 
Take about a 4"  new growth in the spring from last year's bud, dip  cut bud end in hormone, put in potting soil.  More than half the things I set out this way will root.
 
FWIW, there are several things that a homemade rooting hormone works better on.  Take a slick-bark willow limb (new growth), trim a handful of the bark off, steep the bark in a quart jar of rainwater for a few days.  You can either dip the cut end of whatever is to be rooted in the brew and then put it in the potting soil, or just leave it in the brew till the rootbuds appear and then put it in the potting soil. 
 
This works really well for me for rooting "tree" cuttings.  I would say "woody", but some might misunderstand. 
 
 

That information would be good to put in a sticky.

[jvs]

Believe me, there are alot of topics that would make great sticky's.  There are only two problems that see for expanding the sticky's farther than the Forum Overview that is presently there.
 
1.  They only load to the top.  Which means any new sticky would be above the ones already there.  I would prefer that they load in Chronological order by later date.  They do not.  I have been told basically that "That's the way it is".  I can accept that.
 
2.  By the time I  got all the sticky's in that 'really belong', I would probably have 2 or 3 pages of sticky's to wade through to get to the most recent posts in the most recent threads.  I know that I dont want to do that, and I dont think many other members would either.
 
A few years ago, Graybeard himself had a thread about Blueberrys.  It is quite a Knowledge Base for Blueberrys. It is not a sticky. 
 
If I had my choice, I would definitely have more sticky's regarding some pretty substantial information about some subjects, but I can also see where it would have no end.  For now I prefer only the Forum Overview as sticky's.
 
I suggest if anyone needs to find out if any subject has been covered in depth over the years, the Search feature at the top of every page of the website should work just as good, as it is only a click away... 
 
and makes good reading.
 
 

[keith44]

good points

[reliquary]

 
Rooting stuff isn't rocket science.  Any commercially available hormone works on most things.  The basic info is on almost any gardening site or the label of the bottle.
 
Things like gardenias, azaleas, camelias, most roses...just cut or break off the tip end of a limb and stick it in the ground under the dripline of the parent plant (when new growth appears in the spring)...out of a dozen cuttings, 3-4 usually root for me, sometimes more.  Without hormones.
 
With the hormone and sticking the cutting in potting soil, almost all will "take." 
 
Another way that works with grapes/muscadines is to "ground root" a runner or sprout.  Just lay it on the ground, pile dirt over it, come back in the fall, and it will have taken root under the dirt.  Then cut them loose from the parent, prune them, and dig them up & plant them in early spring.
 
I give away a lot of plants.
 
 

[Cornbelt]

  To keep rabbits away from our blueberry bushes and saplings, we put barrel rings around them. Just a 55 gal bbl cut into about three sections.
 
 For keeping birds off, the berries can be sprayed w/unsweetened grape coolaid. Trouble is, it washes off in the rain.
 

[keith44]

  To keep rabbits away from our blueberry bushes and saplings, we put barrel rings around them. Just a 55 gal bbl cut into about three sections.
 
 For keeping birds off, the berries can be sprayed w/unsweetened grape coolaid. Trouble is, it washes off in the rain.
 

That gives me an idea...
we get mineral feed for the cattle (on my grand fathers farm) in 30 gallon tubs.  If I cut the bottom out of some, and set those around the plants it would also keep mulch and nutrients in place, and help prevent frost damage.  A little bird netting can be used over the top.


Great idea,  thanks

[keith44]

I wonder how much longer the title of this thread is going to get, I think someone keeps pouring miracle grow on it 

[bilmac]

I cut the beads out of old tires, about midway in the sidewall, both sides. A sawsall works pretty good but a sabresaw will do it to. I have a south facing slope so I buried the north side of the tires, and leave the south side exposed. I did 30 of them and plant my maters in them. I saved the beads and lay them about where they would normally fit to mulch and warm the ground a bit more. By cutting about half the sidewall off it makes it easy to get the dirt up against the tread that is exposed to the sun for the warmth.

[blind ear]

Keith44, you probably know it but useing the bucket to keep the mulch close, don't let the mullch pile up against trees and vines that are long lived with bark. The decaying mulch will cause fungus to infect the bark. Keep a few inches of space. On trees and vines that have roots that rise up  as they grow be sure to keep them clear also.
 
ear
 
I like the new title, or has it been that all along? ear

[jvs]

The Title has grown as the subject matter has wandered.