Author Topic: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle  (Read 4372 times)

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Offline petemi

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.35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« on: December 15, 2011, 03:58:27 AM »
I have long thought about reaming a .357 Handi to .35 Remington.  Dinny's recent post on his custom Handi in .356 Winchester sparked my curiosity.  I did a little research, and I'm now building a .356.  Here are the reasons I chose it over the .35.  First of all, it is a rimmed case which is considered by most here to be superior to rimless in a Handi.  The .35 is rimless.  Brass can be fire formed from .307 Win. or purchased new.  Bullets are the same.

The below load data example is from Hodgdon:  .356 Winchester:

180 GR. SPR FP  Hodgdon  H4198  .358"  2.565"  40.0  2441   

.35 Remington:  180 GR. SPR FN  Hodgdon  H4198  .358"  2.470"  28.0  1971   

I realize the above is somewhat mixing apples and oranges, but the fact remains the .356 outperforms the .35 by almost 500 fps in the above example.
Here's the ballistics on the two:

.35 Remington:
Max Point blank range is 186 yds when zeroed at 159 yds.
Range
yds
Path
in
ComeUp
clicks
Velocity
fps
Energy
ft/lbs
Momentum
lb ft/s
ToF
sec
Windage
in
Windage
clicks
Optimal
Game Wgt
Muzzle
-1.5
Infinity
1971
1553
50.68
0.000
0.0
NaN
372
25
-0.2
3
1895
1435
48.72
0.039
0.0
0
331
50
0.6
-4
1821
1325
46.81
0.079
0.0
0
293
75
0.6
-3
1748
1222
44.96
0.121
0.0
0
260
100
0.0
0
1678
1126
43.16
0.165
0.0
0
230
125
-1.4
4
1610
1037
41.41
0.211
0.0
0
203
150
-3.7
9
1545
954
39.73
0.258
0.0
0
179
175
-6.8
15
1482
878
38.11
0.308
0.0
0
158
200
-11.0
21
1422
808
36.57
0.360
0.0
0
140
225
-16.2
27
1365
745
35.11
0.414
0.0
0
124
250
-22.6
35
1312
688
33.73
0.470
0.0
0
110
275
-30.3
42
1262
636
32.45
0.528
0.0
0
98
300
-39.3
50
1215
590
31.25
0.589
0.0
0
87

.356 Winchester:
 Diameter   Wind Speed Altitude     Clicks/MOA Sight Height Max Range Range Interval    Sectional Density Muzzle Velocity Bullet Weight  Ballistic Coefficient  Temperature   Zero Range Ballistics Calculator 
Max Point blank range is 226 yds when zeroed at 193 yds.
Range
yds
Path
in
ComeUp
clicks
Velocity
fps
Energy
ft/lbs
Momentum
lb ft/s
ToF
sec
Windage
in
Windage
clicks
Optimal
Game Wgt
Muzzle
-1.5
Infinity
2441
2381
62.77
0.000
0.0
NaN
707
25
-0.5
8
2355
2216
60.56
0.031
0.0
0
635
50
0.1
-1
2271
2061
58.39
0.064
0.0
0
569
75
0.3
-1
2188
1914
56.27
0.097
0.0
0
509
100
0.0
0
2107
1775
54.19
0.132
0.0
0
455
125
-0.8
2
2028
1643
52.14
0.169
0.0
0
405
150
-2.1
5
1950
1520
50.15
0.206
0.0
0
360
175
-3.9
9
1874
1404
48.20
0.246
0.0
0
320
200
-6.4
12
1801
1296
46.31
0.287
0.0
0
284
225
-9.6
16
1729
1195
44.47
0.329
0.0
0
251
250
-13.4
21
1660
1101
42.68
0.373
0.0
0
222
275
-18.1
25
1593
1014
40.95
0.420
0.0
0
196
300
-23.6
30
1528
933
39.28
0.468
0.0
0
173

I'm not the greatest at putting data together, but I think the above information gets the point across.

Pete
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2011, 04:30:32 AM »
It all makes sense to me, Pete. I think the ability to load it 'down' and shoot lead bullets like a 357 or Maxi load as well should make it shine as an all rounder.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2011, 04:38:03 AM »
I completely agree Peter!!

The 307/356 are excellent calibers for a single shot like our Handis!

I have been a long time 35 cal proponent. IMHO it's where the big bores start. From the little 357mag on up to the big 35 magnums. I like them all.

The 356 never really took off. The 35 Rem has been here a long time and effectively and efficiently done most everything asked of it. Paper ballistics shi it's better, but they can deceive too. Many times we have seen calibers go leaps and bounds above what one would surmise based on paper ballistics. This is the case for the 35 Rem AND the 356 Win!
In the fifties when Winchester created a line of calibers based off the 7.62x51 military caliber. They had a real winner!! The 243, and 358 Winchesters are still going today. Later on Remington and later still Federal jumped on with the 7mm/08 and the 338 Fed.

My first "deer rifle" was chambered in 358 Winchester. My father, uncles all touted the 308 as all that was needed. Grandpa was a '06 and 8MM Mauser man. The first deer I killed with a rifle fell to one of his 8MMs. I am proud to have been left that rifle on his passing some years ago.
With that 358 I killed many deer, still to this day,over 35 deer seasons, I still have never seen deer killed faster or more effectively than they died after being hit with a 200g 358 bullet.

All this talk finds me watching the classifieds for a 35 cal to have my own!!

Good luck to both Dinny and you Peter. I think you have and will have excellent times with these new handi chamberings.

CW
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Offline bikerbeans

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2011, 05:20:29 AM »
Pete,
 
With the 35 Rem being offered by Illion would have to go the with the 356.  Maybe rechamber to 356 and buy a 35 Rem barrel and do a little Coke/Pepsi challenge with then on your back porch?
 
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2011, 05:36:37 AM »
Probably the biggest advantage is solving the 35 Remington FTF problems with H&R's.  Larry
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Offline petemi

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2011, 06:21:26 AM »
Pete,
 
With the 35 Rem being offered by Illion would have to go the with the 356.  Maybe rechamber to 356 and buy a 35 Rem barrel and do a little Coke/Pepsi challenge with then on your back porch?
 
BB

Tom, as much as I like.....no....it's more like revere....the old .35, I think the .356 would walk away from the old girl leaving her flat footed on the back porch. 

Living, shooting and hunting on our farm as I do, I think I'm going to sight in the .356 an inch high at 40 yards which should be about 3 high at 100, on again at 200 and 5 low at 250.  That'll handle about any situation I'm liable to run into here.

Probably the biggest advantage is solving the 35 Remington FTF problems with H&R's.  Larry

Larry, that's true.  I hadn't thought about it.

Pete
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline silver surfer

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2011, 06:22:59 AM »
Have you considered a .358 Win?  I have long been a fan of a .35 cal and can attest to there versatility and lethality.  Here's an Excerpt from Ryan Ryals article on the caliber.  Notice "Handy Rifle"  (maybe Brian is reading :D ).
 
CONCLUSION
 
The large-case magnums typically have the advantages of faster velocity, flatter trajectory and higher energy than standard cartridges. The magnums have been used by many folk to take a variety of game. It would be irrational to argue against their effectiveness.
 
Their downside is that they require longer barreled, heavier rifles and generate enormous recoil and muzzle blast. Since many install muzzle brakes to tame their heavy recoil, the muzzle blast can become literally deafening. Many hunters do not mind carrying long, heavy rifles and can endure heavy recoil and muzzle blast. For them the magnums may be a great choice. However, for many of us a shorter, lighter rifle is a welcome thing.
 
[font=]The .358 can be built as a short, handy rifle, unlike the .300 and .338 magnums. Yet the cartridge is powerful enough for the largest animals on this continent, while not being too much for deer. In fact, the .358 fits neatly between the standard .30 calibers and the grand old .45-70 and offers the best of both worlds. It provides killing power similar to the classic big bore and at the same time has a trajectory that is close to the .308 and .30-06. It will provide a maximum point blank range of 230 to 260 yards[/font], which would be a long shot for me (and the great majority of hunters) under field conditions.
 
I believe it is an outstanding blend of bore size, killing power, reasonable trajectory and moderate recoil that can be had in a compact all-around rifle for North American hunting. To quote a famous Alaskan guide, Hal Waugh, the .358 Winchester is one of the "finest little big guns" ever to come along. The great mystery to me is why so few seem to agree.
 
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Offline petemi

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2011, 06:34:43 AM »
The .356 and .358 are almost twins.   The differences are the .358 has a little more case capacity and is rimless.  Most of the Handiholics around here choose rimmed cartridges when possible for their Handis.  That is why the .356 is more favored.

Pete
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
[size=7.4 pt]PLEASE DONATE TO THE GBO SERVER FUND  We're closer to the goal but not there yet, we can still use more donations, thanks

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2011, 07:08:29 AM »
The .356 and .358 are almost twins.   The differences are the .358 has a little more case capacity and is rimless.  Most of the Handiholics around here choose rimmed cartridges when possible for their Handis.  That is why the .356 is more favored.

Pete

Here is a old topic; http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=3001.0

Yup, the exterior dimentions are identicle. So much so the same dies are used for both! Just a different shell holder is needed!

Inside the rimmed 356 has less capacity than the semi rimmed 358. (as Pete said) starting loads can be used but top loads are reached quicker.

The 358 is very much reveired by those taking the time to buy and use one.  It's very efficient and even works well from shorter barrels. There is many well known writers who call it favorite!

CW
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Offline silver surfer

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2011, 07:28:10 AM »
I have no interest in cranking up a " ___ VS. ___" debate. That's not my intent :-X .
  I think the .356 would be a better choice for a Handi Rifle because of the rim, but my druthers point to the .358 because the brass of the ever available .308 brass is easy to get.  I reload so that definately shades my desire.  Man would I love a handi barrel @ 24 inches to go walking and stalking with.  I dearly love my 45-70 BC and it is a bad motor scooter with handloads, but that .358 with some custom loads would take alot less brain power for longer shots.   :)
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2011, 07:38:55 AM »
but that .358 with some custom loads would take alot less brain power for longer shots.   :)

Since you're gonna have to do a rechamber to get either, then consider the 35 Whelen Improved, it trumps the 356/358 in performance.  ;)

Tim
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2011, 07:41:08 AM »
If you cut the rim properly in the Handi and use the proper ejector/extractor, you can fire either the 307 or 308 brass out of the same chamber and barrel, load either one and shoot it.  So you could size some 308 brass to the 356 winchester and shoot it rimless or size the 307 brass and shoot it with a rim.  I've made up two 307/308 combo barrels and they work perfect.  Larry
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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2011, 08:12:32 AM »
I find this post very disturbing...........it's got me to thinking.  :(   
Therein lies the problem.  ::)
 
I've barely started playing with my 35 Rem barrel and know I'm thinking about reamimg.  :o   ;D
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2011, 08:25:18 AM »
Not much reaming to turn the 35 Remington into a 356 Winchester, you could probably do it by hand in about 15 minutes.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline petemi

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2011, 08:29:15 AM »
If you cut the rim properly in the Handi and use the proper ejector/extractor, you can fire either the 307 or 308 brass out of the same chamber and barrel, load either one and shoot it.  So you could size some 308 brass to the 356 winchester and shoot it rimless or size the 307 brass and shoot it with a rim.  I've made up two 307/308 combo barrels and they work perfect.  Larry

Larry, I know what you're saying is true.  I assume they head space off the shoulder?  If that's correct, I doubt it cold be be done with the .356/.358.  My guess is one claw wouldn't work for both and you'd have to change extractors or ejectors from one to the other.

Pete

Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
[size=7.4 pt]PLEASE DONATE TO THE GBO SERVER FUND  We're closer to the goal but not there yet, we can still use more donations, thanks

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,191112.msg1098959491.html#msg1098959491

Offline trotterlg

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2011, 09:20:23 AM »
The claw works for both the rimmed .307 and the rimless .308 with no problems at all.  The 307 head spaces on the rim (if you want it to)  and the 308 head spaces on the sholder.  Larry
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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2011, 10:25:29 AM »
Just doing a little reading on the .356; brass is available at ~ $40 for 50, all things considered it a duplicate of the .358, but it would require one less step in the reloading process.  The need to full case size is (generally) negated because of the head spacing off the rim leaving only neck sizing to crimp the bullet.  This process is very similar to reloading my .303 Brit and I have been able to fire brass in upwards of a dozen times.  Some more than that, and never a case head failure. 
I know by reputation the Handi's like full length sizing, but with the right combo who knows?  Pete you've got me thinking.....
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Offline Jason F

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2011, 04:22:19 PM »
Like tim said just go with the whelen,i use 30-06 brass necked up pushing a 200 grain bullet at 2500 and thats not even maxed out
handi rifles- 22 mag      22 hornet    223      7mm-08      308 chip shot     30-30 x2     30-06 shorty      358 cheez whiz     357 max     35 remington     375-08    410 rifled slug     454 casull     460 s&w     45 smokeless muzzleloader x2     45-70    50 huntsman    50-70 government shikari     20 ga.ush     12 ga.ush    12 ga.3 1/2     10 ga.imp.cyl. slug gun

Offline Graybeard

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2011, 06:08:11 PM »
Your numbers even if from a loading manual are very misleading as to the real world relationship between these two rounds.

Normal velocity for the .35 Remington with a 200 grain RN is around 2000 fps. Personally I see no reason to use any other bullet in the .35 Remington and I don't. From a .356 Winchester you might get 2350-2400 fps with a 200 whether RN or SP.

I like the idea of the .356 Winchester and would buy a lever action so chambered if I ran across it and likely will one day have a .35 Remington rechambered to it if not. But for a single barrel like the handi rifle an even better choice is the .358 JDJ tho I'm not sure who you'd get to rechamber it for you as SSK Industries will not work on handi rifles. I know I tried to get JD to do one for my best friend many years ago and he just wouldn't do it. From my TC 14" .358 JDJ I was able to get 2300 fps with Nosler 225 BTs at one grain less than SSK's max charge using AA2520.


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Offline blind ear

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2011, 07:09:37 PM »
Yall ort not to do this to me.
 
Don't have my max shooting and am already wanting to ream it to 356W.
 
Glad that I have 2 max barrels. ear
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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2011, 01:11:11 AM »
A 356 win will do anything a 35 Wheelan will do with the same weight and type bullet. Put your bullet in the right place and any critter in North America will not notice the actual velocity difference.
If anyone wants a barn burning 35 cal with a rim,  there is a 358 White Improved available. It is a 444 Marlin based offspring.The same unmentionable gunsmith also has another 35 caliber based on the 9.3X74 case available in standard and improved versions.These are Very Impressive Looking. The 358WE is 3rd from the left.308 Win is on the right
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2011, 01:38:22 AM »
I often wondered about wildcats off that case. Problem is its scarce and when found expensive!

Bill,
My own 358 will better than 2600 with a 200g bullet and a 22" barrel. I see no good reason a 356 out of a Handi would not beat 2500fps, safely loaded. Especially when considering today's better powders. Also remember Tim's Super 35 data, a hot loaded 35 Rem will do better then 2200fps with a 200g.

BUT for me that's not the reason for this caliber. For me I have seen what a 35 cal 200g Hornady does to deer at 2500 and I'll tell you nothing will kill faster. I not just talking DRT or bang flops. I'm talking dead before they hit the ground. Amazing to see. Now I know full well conditions dictate the results and perfect bullet placement on a calm animal would likely do exactly the same with about any hi power "deer gun". My point is like many of you, I have shot a few deer and so far only seen it with the 358 shooting 200g Hornady's at 2550 fps.

I too am seriously looking at this. I also have two Maxis and really don't need two... Maybe I need to rent that reamer and talk to the GS... After the holidays.

Merry Christmas to all,
CW
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2011, 09:10:46 AM »
Hey SS, I dont much hear anybody mention Hal Waugh anymore, thanx for reminding me of him!  ;) Real man, real world experience you could bank on.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2011, 09:41:54 AM »
Also remember Tims Super 35 data, a hot loaded 35 Rem will do better then 2200 with a 200.


Closer to 2400fps than 2200fps.  ;)

Tim

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Offline Dinny

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2011, 02:59:09 PM »
Glad I could help!  ;D    8)




Thanks, Dinny
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2012, 05:12:26 PM »
Well it's almost two months since this post.... Today I bought a 35 Rem and should see it in a week...

Gonna order the reamer. Doubt I will even fire it as a 35 Remington!!!

Thanks guys!!!

CW
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Offline giddens1972

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2012, 05:44:07 PM »
SSK did a rechamber for me in 358JDJ...I don't know if I just caught them on a good day or what, but I am thoroughly satisfied with mine.  $90 plus shipping!  Here's the first group I got out of it at 100yds.
John

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2012, 06:11:11 PM »
It is strange how these things mutate, you start with a 357 mag, an excellent low cost to load round, ubiquitous case availability, not overly powerful, can be interchanged and fired in millions of revolvers.  I have a whole stable of more expensive to load, larger, more powerful, longer range rounds that can do that. Why do we do this? You have even corrupted me, I broke down and picked up a set of 357 Herrett dies. I used to have one in a contender, killed my first handgun deer with it, a little 8 pointer that hangs on the wall behind me as I type this. My last kill was with my 357, a huge feral tom cat that has been ripping into my trash and roughing up my old 14 year old mouser that stays on my porch. The thing weighed over 15 pounds and was in great shape, he was king of his territory. I have several deer rifles I could have used, but that would just not have been right. Too dangerous, to much range, too much power. The 125 gr 357 was just right.
I still may get another 357 barrel and do the Herrett in a shorty, but the standard 357 is here to stay. Unless they make a 32/20. Then it will become a Herrett.
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Offline gunther66

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2012, 03:17:57 AM »
CW you did good. I am also a lover of the 35 cal.  Eveything from 38 special to 35 whelen.My go-to is almost always the 356 winny,although the Max and 35 Rems are available. The Whelens just kick too darn much! recoil is more like a very hot 444 or 45/70. G66
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Offline bikerbeans

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Re: .35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2012, 03:34:57 AM »
CW,
 
Good to hear your found your 35 Rem!   Keep us posted on your project.
 
giddens,
 
Stop posting on that 358 JDJ! :o    You are going to be responsible for me having my Talo Trapper rechambered. :P    Glad your new barrel is working out for you.  I have 308x444 based on the 444M cartridge and the 358x444 is mighty tempting.
 
BB
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