Does any country have the RIGHT to attack another to PREVENT a possible attack?

[NWBear]

In another topic the issue of our (US or allies) right to attack Iran to prevent them from getting nuclear arms was brought up.  I personally don't feel we have the right to attack another country because of something they are doing within there own country.  If we believe in this philosophy then ANY country can attack any one and blame it on the fact that they felt threatened.  This is a spiral I would not like to imagine going down.  China apparently has an Aircraft Carrier - should we attack?  Why haven't we attacked N. Korea - they have a nuclear program, have clearly threatened the "West", and WE ALREADY HAVE TROOPS IN S. KOREA!!! 


I would like to hear some logical arguments for or against my position.  I don't have the answers, just ideas, and I am open to a good discussion.

[powderman]

I believe in preventive maintenence. Iran has stated many times that they want to destroy us and Israel but thus far have not had the means to do so. It only makes common sense to me to make sure they never get the means to do so. It's been way too quiet about the destruction of their nuke facility, don't know for sure what happened there. POWDERMAN. 

[nw_hunter]

Not unless you have (proof positive) an attack is planned against the country being threatened.
That said! We know that Adms. will make up reasons like weapons of mass destruction and other things to scare the masses.

[yellowtail3]

Fans of preventative maintenance - better known as surprise attacks against smaller countries - only like that applied one way. It comes with being the biggest power on the block.


They wouldn't like it applied to their country.


Japan attacked the US when they felt threatened, presented with an economic stranglehold unless they gave up their ambitions in China and kowtowed to US demands. They'd have done better if they'd have had something more than barely 7% of our industrial capacity.

[jimster]

I don't think any country has the right to tell any other country they can't have nukes or anything else, when they have them themselves.
That being said...if they point them at us, then wipe em out...it's no different than someone pointing a gun at you.  We have the technology to tell if something is pointing at us I think?  Same goes for us. We don't point them.  Maybe we should all point them at the ground. They are not going away, same as guns. 
 
So yes...if they point something at us, shoot them first if you can.  Other then that, no...let em pack their weapons cause we have them too. We obviously do not have the power to tell anyone what they can have or not have anyway.  We only pick on small third world countries on stuff like this.  We ain't tellin China nothing...cause they can probably whip us.  That should leave a bad taste in your mouth.  I'd rather our country would not tell anyone anything, and be silent for awhile.  Kick butt all at once if we have to with massive destruction, get it over with, and go back to being quiet. Anyone complains about doing it that way, just tell them to not point anything at us, and we ain't sayin it twice. 
Why can't we do it that way?  It's simpler.  Probably not as hypocritical either.

[Gary G]

Do I have the right to murder the man across the road because of his blusterous speech and the fact that he just bought an AK47?


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But Iran, like Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, has nothing to do with perceived threats; it is all about control of the worlds oil. The Iraq invasion was planned before 9/11.

[Gary G]

Another thought: I don't want others messing with me; should I support my government messing with others?

[m-g Willy]

Very thought provoking question.
Let's see,,,, neighbor stands in front of my house in the street with a gun  and says he is going to kill me.
I watch him load his gun.....
WHAT TO DO??
 1.I wait for him to take aim?
2. I wait for him to fire the first round?
3.I drop him as soon as I know his intentions before he can even load his weapon.
I choose option -- 3 -- !
 
 
 

[powderman]

Very thought provoking question.
Let's see,,,, neighbor stands in front of my house in the street with a gun  and says he is going to kill me.
I watch him load his gun.....
WHAT TO DO??
 1.I wait for him to take aim?
2. I wait for him to fire the first round?
3.I drop him as soon as I know his intentions before he can even load his weapon.
I choose option -- 3 -- !

 
MG_WILLY. YEP, iran in a  nutshell. No doubt imanutjob will attack us and Israel like he has said he would just as soon as he gets the means to do so. POWDERMAN. 

[Matt]

NO

[Graybeard]

Very thought provoking question.
Let's see,,,, neighbor stands in front of my house in the street with a gun  and says he is going to kill me.
I watch him load his gun.....
WHAT TO DO??
 1.I wait for him to take aim?
2. I wait for him to fire the first round?
3.I drop him as soon as I know his intentions before he can even load his weapon.
I choose option -- 3 -- !

Iffen ya do then the jury is gonna find ya guilty. There is no other verdict they can have. If everyone who blustered and threatened was shot based on that threat our prisons wouldn't have room for all the pot heads and other drug users.

[nw_hunter]

Very thought provoking question.
Let's see,,,, neighbor stands in front of my house in the street with a gun  and says he is going to kill me.
I watch him load his gun.....
WHAT TO DO??
 1.I wait for him to take aim?
2. I wait for him to fire the first round?
3.I drop him as soon as I know his intentions before he can even load his weapon.
I choose option -- 3 -- !

 
MG_WILLY. YEP, iran in a  nutshell. No doubt imanutjob will attack us and Israel like he has said he would just as soon as he gets the means to do so. POWDERMAN. 

Yea! Perhaps in the year 2111 Lets see, You and I and old Imanutjob will be around...UH! Well not sure but we will be old dirt by then.

[magooch]

As someone else reminded us, John Kennedy told Cuba they couldn't have missiles.  Ronald Reagan demonstrated that we wouldn't allow Granada to do whatever it was they were doing.  George Bush told Panama they couldn't keep Noriega.  Bill Clinton wasn't happy about what Serbia was up to, so he bombed the Chinese embassy there.  He also bombed the hell out of an aspirin factory in some Middle East shirt hole.  Obama has continued along the same sort of path in Afghanistan and even Pakistan, so it goes on and on.
 
Let's get one thing straight; our attack on Iraq was not a sneak attack.  Iraq had months of warning of what was going to happen if they didn't comply with what we and our allies said had to happen.  Iraq was in noncompliance with a ceasefire agreement they had signed.
 
Of course there is going to be disagreement with whatever foreign action this and other countries do that they think is in their best interest.  None of it is analogous with what you might do to your neighbor.
 

[SHOOTALL]

Preventative surprize attacks is a recent invention of George Bush, Jr. 
 
..TM7

 
This is a joke  ? right ?
Lets not go back to far as they existed long before . But DEC 7th , Regans attack on Lybia , Clinton's attack on the drug factory , Maybe you never heard of a clear and presant danger ?
 
To compare a country to and indivisual in a case like this is silly. Is there a an American alive that feels if we had hard evidence about Dec 7th that a first strike was not in order ?
 
I do seem to remember some saber rattling from Iran. Keep in mind if you see intent to harm , ablity to do so and an action that appears to be the start of carrying out an attack you have a right to defend your country or self. So with the saber rattling , work on the nuke it would only seem right to defend ones self if things looked like they were getting ready for attacking someone.

[powderman]

Let's get one thing straight; our attack on Iraq was not a sneak attack.  Iraq had months of warning of what was going to happen if they didn't comply with what we and our allies said had to happen.  Iraq was in noncompiance with a ceasefire agreement they had signed.

 
YEP, their word was worth nothing. Some of you feel content to draw the wagons in a circle til you are completely surrounded and helpless, I don't. Decisions would have to be based on a lot of things, whether to nip it in the bud or let it grow. The iranian nutjob is not stable or rational, also a muslim which means he is bound by his cult to lie to us to get what he wants. Agreement or treaties with scum like that are worthless, look at all the pacts that Israel has signed with the you know what palis, not one has been kept. I think it foolish to allow a madman to build nukes capable of destroying us and wait til he fires them before taking action. Like I said, there are variables that would vary the proper response. POWDERMAN. 

[SHOOTALL]

If you find yourself in a fair fight your tatics suck stump water . Clint Smith first offered this idea in a similar way.

[SHOOTALL]

I see we disagree once more , I can live with that.

[subdjoe]

Very thought provoking question.
Let's see,,,, neighbor stands in front of my house in the street with a gun  and says he is going to kill me.
I watch him load his gun.....
WHAT TO DO??
 1.I wait for him to take aim?
2. I wait for him to fire the first round?
3.I drop him as soon as I know his intentions before he can even load his weapon.
I choose option -- 3 -- !

Iffen ya do then the jury is gonna find ya guilty. There is no other verdict they can have. If everyone who blustered and threatened was shot based on that threat our prisons wouldn't have room for all the pot heads and other drug users.

Maybe, maybe not.  Depends on the state and the other circumstances.  In CA, given what is stated, you would have at least an even money chance of being let off.  If you neighbor had a history of violence and erratic behavior, and you aren't in San Francisco, your chances on not being charged with anything go way up.

[SHOOTALL]

So what some are saying is if you know someone ( OK TM7 lets use people here ) is going to shoot you , hit you or stab you , you think it is only fair to wait until they make the first move    . Guess the crowd that always cries "if I get to my truck you will be sorry" works on that principal  .

[BBF]

 
 
                                                                      NO !

[Gary G]

Actually, Iran historically (the last 200 years anyway) has been much more peaceful than the country that you are most familiar with. I believe the only war would be with Iraq.


Now, if they eventually learn how to make enough gasoline for themselves, they may pose a danger to someone.
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It seems that our greatest threat is an un-payable debt from wars and welfare.!

[lakota]

Count me in the "no" crowd. Preemptive strikes just smack of "big brother" to me. Hitting a country just because they have or may have a weapon is really no different than a tac team hitting my house because I may or may not have a gun or I may or may not have sevin or some other chemical in my shed that I use in my garden.

[powderman]

LAKOTA. I understand what you are saying and agree, but concerning iran we are not dealing with rational minds or govt. The destruction of one of their nuke sites is way too quiet. I don't care how it happened if it has at least stopped, or greatly delayed  them from building nukes capable of destroying us and or Israel. POWDERMAN. 

[woodchukhntr]

On a personal level, say your neighbor is constantly telling you he is going to beat the tar out of you and starts waving his fist in front of your face.  How close does he have to get before you hit him first?  What if he starts threatening your kids?

[mcwoodduck]

In certain situations I say yes.
In the case of Iran, they have said they are going to wipe Ireal off the map.
They have called us their sworn enemy.
I think the question is, are we willing to kill 2 to 3,000 Iranians at a test facility to keep them from killing 2 or 3 million Americans?
In 1941, if we could have seen the Japanese fleet off Hawaii, would we have been in our right to attack them before they could launch their attack?

[powderman]

In 1941, if we could have seen the Japanese fleet off Hawaii, would we have been in our right to attack them before they could launch their attack?

 
I believe some here would have waited til the first bombs exploded. POWDERMAN. 

[Matt]

In 1941, if we could have seen the Japanese fleet off Hawaii, would we have been in our right to attack them before they could launch their attack?

 
I believe some here would have waited til the first bombs exploded. POWDERMAN. 

You do understand that we (as in people in the government) knew they were going to attack us and they wanted it. It allowed the Military Industrial Complex to take control.


By your same logic any muslim has the right to kill you. You have publicly stated that you would like to see them all wiped out. What ever happen to "Whats good for the goose is good for the gander"?


And can someone please tell me why it is so many people are so worried about Israel ? Why is it that you put another sovereign nation above your own? Also how can a country that we do not have any sort of treaty with be our greatest ally? So if this country is our greatest ally why the hell do we need to protect them and give them billions of our dollars. Where I come from most would say with friends like that who needs enemies.


Matt

[mcwoodduck]

In 1941, if we could have seen the Japanese fleet off Hawaii, would we have been in our right to attack them before they could launch their attack?

 
I believe some here would have waited til the first bombs exploded. POWDERMAN. 

You do understand that we (as in people in the government) knew they were going to attack us and they wanted it. It allowed the Military Industrial Complex to take control.


By your same logic any muslim has the right to kill you. You have publicly stated that you would like to see them all wiped out. What ever happen to "Whats good for the goose is good for the gander"?


And can someone please tell me why it is so many people are so worried about Israel ? Why is it that you put another sovereign nation above your own? Also how can a country that we do not have any sort of treaty with be our greatest ally? So if this country is our greatest ally why the hell do we need to protect them and give them billions of our dollars. Where I come from most would say with friends like that who needs enemies.


Matt

I sreal is one of our Allies.  We protect our allies and they protect us.
But with Iran saying they are going to kill them and us why would we want to let them get a bomb knowing once htey do they are going to try to explode one here.  Are you willing todo something before a bomb goes off in one of our sea ports?  Having an airplane explode while landing at any airport in the US.
Once they get a bomb and threaten, accept Islam or die!  The leaders of Iran are willing to have millions dead to bring about the global kalifate.
I do not understand why some are willing to allow evil to exist, and why we do not take them at their word.  The Radicals said they were at war with us and we ignored the 1st trade center bombing, we ignored the attacks on the African embasies, we ignored the Black Hawk down in Somolia, and the Cole.   We saw them as isolated insodents, each time we ignored the attack, Had a president that went on TV wagged his finger and swore to bring those resposible to justice, Until9/11 when we had a president that did nto wag his finger but acted. And while Iraq did not attack us, Sadam vowed to get even, and he thought he had WMDs even if it urned out that he did not, With  a terror network wanting those weapons we needed to make sure they did not fall int their hands.
If we thing Iran will have a bomb, the leaders will not be reasoned with, they need to be stopped.

[powderman]

You do understand that we (as in people in the government) knew they were going to attack us and they wanted it. It allowed the Military Industrial Complex to take control.



MATT. No, I don't know that or believe it.
 
 

 
By your same logic any muslim has the right to kill you. You have publicly stated that you would like to see them all wiped out. What ever happen to "Whats good for the goose is good for the gander"?



Like it or not we are in a war with  islam, a you know what cult of hatred and death. They murdered people in 24 countries last month alone, the war is not just with us it's worldwide, or the Global War, On  Islam, aka GWOI.
 
 
If you knew anything about the Bible you would know that Israel is Gods chosen nation. They are a mere dot in a sea of millions of muslims dedicated to anhilating them, but every time they try Israel kicks butt. Still, there are some who can't seem see Gods hand on Israel. Islam is dedicated to controlling the entire world for satan himself and must be treated as the cancer it is. I hope the world wakes up before it's too late. We can't just circle the wagons and wait for them to keep getting stronger til they are able to attack and kill us all. POWDERMAN. 

[Heather]

ATTENTION: The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The whole world is going to collapse in on itself if we don't stop the crazy terrorist! Come on people, this is a REAL THREAT! WE MUST BECOME THE TERRORIST IN ORDER TO STOP TERRORISM! It is the ONLY way. If we don't kill them all then they are going to kill all of us!

I know that this may not be a favorable avenue for the bleeding heart liberals, BUT THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN CANNOT BE SPARED.  If we let them live, then they will only take over their fathers hatred for the American lifestyle. We must invade their country NOW and shove our way of life down their throats. We American's have all the answers on how to treat the people, how to run the Government, AND even the economy. WE MUST SPREAD THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE TO THE REST OF THE WORLD. IT is OUR way or DEATH!

Our troops spread all over the world battling 'terrorism' is MUCH MORE BENEFICIAL than having our troops at home controlling our borders and repatriating that money. It totally makes more sense to invade other countries and try to make them 'more American' so that we can control them, than to increase our National Security so that no matter what technology rogue countries acquire, America is safe.

So to answer the original post. NOT NO BUT HECK NO!!!! Who the heck do we think we are. Take a look around you. The American Government has no clue on how to run this country much less the WHOLE WORLD! IF we are taking care of things in our home, then who cares what they are doing elsewhere. AMERICANS can protect AMERICA FROM HOME!!! 

AS FOR ISRAEL. The whole argument for protecting Israel is that they are God's chosen people and must be protected. I don't know what type of God most of you worship, but the God that I love is way more powerful than the UN or USA and can protect His people just fine. Not to mention they are strong enough to protect themselves!!!

ONE MORE POINT them I am off my rant. When a conspiracy theory comes from the 'people' you all call us wackos who are sipping on the kool aide. When the conspiracies come from the Government and the Media you all jump on the bandwagon and drink their kool aide!