Does any country have the RIGHT to attack another to PREVENT a possible attack?

[powderman]

HEATHER. I don't give a hoot if iran has elections or Americanizes in any way shape or form. It does bother me when they say we will kill you as soon as we get the bomb and can deliver it, then I do care. They can do whatever they want but when they threaten my country YES, I do take offense and think they need stopped in their tracks.
The Bible says those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed. God has used us and other nations to bless Israel, as he intended. If we turn our backs on Israel then we are no better than the millions of satans disciples who surround her and have sworn to anhilate her. In that day you will see us fall. POWDERMAN. 

[Gary G]

Well said Heather. Thomas Jefferson would have been proud of you. Now prepare to be attacked by the kool-aide sipping government propaganda believers. Know that the great majority of educated young people are with you and some of us old folks.

It seems to have been planned since at least 2001 and most likely before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBYv3HGyd7c&feature=player_embedded

[jimster]

Israel is capable of protecting themselves, are they not?  They could bury Iran if they had too in a big hurry all by themselves, there seems to be no need for us to do it for them.  In my opinion, if everyone wants to blow Iran off the map for them having nukes (which there is no evidence, same as Iraq) why are we not blowing several other countries off the map right now as we speak that actually do have nukes using this same logic?  And further more, since when lately have we actually treated war like it really is and totally destroyed the problem?  We just wind up policing another country and sending our soldiers to die each day for no apparent reason.
I would say to all who think we need to go to war, if you do this, at least do it right, if you don't have the stomach to destroy it all from the air which we are capable of and instead put our soldiers there to walk around and get shot at and blown up a little at a time over a decade...forget it and stay home.  For all who think we need to go to war, then go to war and stop messing around...for once do it and get it over with.  In my opinion it's time we butted out of all of this meddling and save our strength for a real war that we have to really win. 
For those that mention WW2 in this debate, keep in mind there were no innocents in WW2...that's how we won that war, and if you think there are innocents in war now, you'll never win another one.  We are not innocent here either.  Just my opinion.

[magooch]

Yeah, I remember when folks thought we should live and let live in reference to nazi Germany.  That worked out pretty well--right?
 
There were those who thought we were safe from imperial Japan, because they were so far away and besides, they are such a small country.  That philosophy worked pretty well too.
 
A lot of people don't remember that the Soviet Union collapsed after George Bush Senior routed Iraq's Soviet sponsored military in a hundred days.  Just a nice little side benefit.
 
I don't know what proof there is that our government conspired to allow Japan to attack us, but I have serious doubts about such a claim.  On the other hand, wouldn't it be insane to sit back and allow it to happen again from another even more nefarious aggressor (Iran)?  No, I wouldn't expect a full on attack from the likes of Iran, but anyone who thinks that they would hesitate to hand off nukes to their terrorist surrogates is living in a fantasy world.
 
And finally, once and for all, as evil as it might seem to the contrary, where is it written that women and children should be exempt from the ravages of war?
 
Nuke unto others before they nuke unto you!

[Gary G]

I don't know what proof there is that our government conspired to allow Japan to attack us, but I have serious doubts about such a claim.

Try the congressional record, minority report. It is there and available online.

[magooch]

TM, I think you tend to believe that the leadership in Iran operates with the same logic as we might.  I wouldn't want to base this country's security and safety on that assumption.  The type of people that Iran uses for it's dirty work have demonstrated that suicide is no problem for them at all.
 
I am not privy to what the alphabet agencies have prevented, but at least  some plots have been foiled by some gubmint folks.   

[mcwoodduck]

Pman/ mcwoodduck....do you have any references to those Iranian threats to isreal or the USA??...I would like to review...thanx...
.
.
Meanwhile:
.
.
[embed=425,349]http://youtu.be/1nBYZJ6hEag[/embed]
 
.
.....TM7
.

Do you understand John Stewart is a comedian!  He is not a real news caster, his whole act is to make fun of conservitives.
There are multiple clips of Akmadinajad saying he is going to wipe Isreal off the map.  That he considers the US his enemy.  The term the GREAT SATAN is what they call us.  The problem is most people in the US think what they saying is typical bluster to ralley their people and explain why they do not have this or that that the Government has stolen.  But they mean what htey say!  If they have the chance to attack Isreal and the US they will.  They believe that anyone killed in the Holly war is going to heaven and are more than willing to help their friends into heaven to destroy us.
 

[mcwoodduck]

ATTENTION: The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The whole world is going to collapse in on itself if we don't stop the crazy terrorist! Come on people, this is a REAL THREAT! WE MUST BECOME THE TERRORIST IN ORDER TO STOP TERRORISM! It is the ONLY way. If we don't kill them all then they are going to kill all of us!

I know that this may not be a favorable avenue for the bleeding heart liberals, BUT THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN CANNOT BE SPARED.  If we let them live, then they will only take over their fathers hatred for the American lifestyle. We must invade their country NOW and shove our way of life down their throats. We American's have all the answers on how to treat the people, how to run the Government, AND even the economy. WE MUST SPREAD THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE TO THE REST OF THE WORLD. IT is OUR way or DEATH!

Our troops spread all over the world battling 'terrorism' is MUCH MORE BENEFICIAL than having our troops at home controlling our borders and repatriating that money. It totally makes more sense to invade other countries and try to make them 'more American' so that we can control them, than to increase our National Security so that no matter what technology rogue countries acquire, America is safe.

So to answer the original post. NOT NO BUT HECK NO!!!! Who the heck do we think we are. Take a look around you. The American Government has no clue on how to run this country much less the WHOLE WORLD! IF we are taking care of things in our home, then who cares what they are doing elsewhere. AMERICANS can protect AMERICA FROM HOME!!!

AS FOR ISRAEL. The whole argument for protecting Israel is that they are God's chosen people and must be protected. I don't know what type of God most of you worship, but the God that I love is way more powerful than the UN or USA and can protect His people just fine. Not to mention they are strong enough to protect themselves!!!

ONE MORE POINT them I am off my rant. When a conspiracy theory comes from the 'people' you all call us wackos who are sipping on the kool aide. When the conspiracies come from the Government and the Media you all jump on the bandwagon and drink their kool aide!

I agree we need ot spread the American ideals, well the pre Liberal 1960's America.   Happy people wit jobs and families are less likely to follow a radical leader. The problem is there are people that want control, and are willing to kill millions or even billions to be incharge, to promote their beliefs.  What they say, they mean.  And a Nuke will help them acheive their goals.  No one feared the Soviet Union and their stock pile of nukes, as they had thousands of them to protect them selves, Iran has said they do not want a bunch but enough to use.  If htye want 5, they have 5 targets to use them.  Think of it this way.  They have a revolver but no ammo now, they do not want a box of bullets, they want three, because that is all they need to cross names off their list.  We need ot do what is needed to stop them from getting any of those bullets. 
I listen to what they say and I understand they mean what they say.  They are not blustering, it is not propaganda, it is what they believe and want.  I would not put it past them to request a meeting at the UN and load a bomb on the plane headed ot NY and detonate, as it is about to land.  We did nto listen to Osama in the late 80'sn adn early 90's and we can see the attacks he carried out that has lead to a 12 year armed conflict.
What will a nuke attack from Iran lead to?

[Doublebass73]

NO

[Gary G]

Nuclear Pots Call Iranian Kettle Black[/size][/font]

http://lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis267.html

[BBF]

In 1941, if we could have seen the Japanese fleet off Hawaii, would we have been in our right to attack them before they could launch their attack?

 
I believe some here would have waited til the first bombs exploded. POWDERMAN. 

You do understand that we (as in people in the government) knew they were going to attack us and they wanted it. It allowed the Military Industrial Complex to take control.


By your same logic any muslim has the right to kill you. You have publicly stated that you would like to see them all wiped out. What ever happen to "Whats good for the goose is good for the gander"?


And can someone please tell me why it is so many people are so worried about Israel ? Why is it that you put another sovereign nation above your own? Also how can a country that we do not have any sort of treaty with be our greatest ally? So if this country is our greatest ally why the hell do we need to protect them and give them billions of our dollars. Where I come from most would say with friends like that who needs enemies.


Matt

 
Re Pearl Harbor:  Agreed. How many here would agree ?
 
PM  Sinking their Carriers near Hawaii would have been a defensive action. Bombing Tokyo prior to their departure would be a different can of fish

[Empty Quiver]

I can liken this to a thug holding your wife with a knife to her throat. Is it okay to pull your pistol and shoot him? He has done no harm really simply a threat, why he hasn't even drawn blood. Probably a good kid on his way to choir practice just wanted some change for the collection box. Best to wait till you see blood don't you think?


Probably best to wait till the first couple weapons are released onto American soil before we do anything rash.


Their words and actions are what sets them apart from Israel, the United States, Britain, the Russians, and nearly every other country that possess nuclear weapons. They have maintained they intend to rid the middle east of a sovereign nation, by whatever means it takes.


The leadership of Iran would do well to shut their pie holes in regards to this matter, lest someone take them serious. 

[Empty Quiver]

Am I to believe EVERYTHING I have been told about Iran is wrong? Not a single thing is true? That whole Embassy hostage thing was make believe the Great Satan thing was taken out of context every single time? I wasn't born last night and certainly not in Tehran. Is the news in this country biased towards US? I hope so I'm really not interested in Iran's opinion.


The US is responsible for bringing the country of Iran kicking and screaming out of the middle ages. We exposed the population  to education, modern commerce, and a standard of living unheard of in that region of the world. The goat herders union and camel breeders assn. would not hear of it and raised hell till we were thrown out. Fine and dandy, oh by the way hows about all that modern oil equipment and modern air force equipment, gonna get rid of that too? Of course not, heck even a goat herder needs to fuel up the Mercedes, and dang but those are some pretty nice airframes you satanic SOB's produce.    Some century they will be able to produce spare parts Allah willing (reckon he ain't willing).


The simple truth is were they to shut their pie hole about (just say it JEWS) zionists they would be ignored. They want to be important, they want to feel needed, they want a hug from the UN. If they can't they are going to ruin the party for everyone. The simple truth is they have made themselves unimportant on the world stage. They have taken one of the most modern middle eastern countries and turned it into just another third world wanna be. They are jealous of the JEW neighbors who have taken a pile o' crap country and turned it into a jewel. When they see what HARD WORK can do it only high lights what laziness can't do. I have worked with several M.E. folks and to a man they detest any sort of labor and I mean any. The more I think about it it may be as simple as the JEWS embarrassing them with just how productive that region can be if you simply get off you dead #$$ and do something beside shout death to America at microphones.


The entire world figures they are too stupid to have nuclear weapons. Rather than insult them they sold them a do it yourself A-Bomb kit. Complete with instructions. Like the proverbial thousand monkeys with a thousand typewriters recreating Shakespeare they seem to be on the verge of completing the danged A-Bomb. I simply hope the adults get home before these children manage to burn down the entire neighborhood.

[yellowtail3]

Re Pearl Harbor:  Agreed. How many here would agree ?
 
PM  Sinking their Carriers near Hawaii would have been a defensive action. Bombing Tokyo prior to their departure would be a different can of fish

would have been hard to do. Had the battle line sortied and met Kido Butai north of Hawaii, we'd have lost a lot more men and as many ships. We didn't have enough carriers in the are to challenge the Jap strike force.

[powderman]

MCWOODDUCK, EMPTY QUIVER. Good posts guys. I wonder if some here would have disagreed when John Kennedy blockaded Cuba to keep Russia from establishing a missle base just a few miles from us?? I remember it well, tensions were indeed high. POWDERMAN. 

[nw_hunter]

MCWOODDUCK, EMPTY QUIVER. Good posts guys. I wonder if some here would have disagreed when John Kennedy blockaded Cuba to keep Russia from establishing a missle base just a few miles from us?? I remember it well, tensions were indeed high. POWDERMAN. 

LOL! You don't actually compare the Cuban Missile crisis to this so called Iran crisis do you?

We had a super power, who we thought at the time equal or superior to our own and camped just off our mainland. Even then Kennedy held off the Joint Chief's who wanted to fake a strike against one of our ships even killing some Americans to push us into Military action against Cuba.(Check out the Operation Northwoods papers) Secrete documents now after all these years made public.

I was part of a strike military Battle group.(26 Inf) that were brought home from Germany and placed on alert with other combat ready units to invade after the air strikes, that would have leveled Cuba.We were told this later at Ft Benning Ga, by then Sec. McNamara.

Operation Northwoods was a series of false-flag proposals that originated within the United States government in 1962. The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or other operatives, to commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities and elsewhere. These acts of terrorism were to be blamed on Cuba in order to create public support for a war against that nation, which had recently become communist under Fidel Castro.^[2] One part of Operation Northwoods was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington."
Operation Northwoods proposals included hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:
 

"The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere."
  Several other proposals were included within Operation Northwoods, including real or simulated actions against various U.S. military and civilian targets. The plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted; it was authored by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but then rejected by President John F. Kennedy.

[powderman]

LOL! You don't actually compare the Cuban Missile crisis to this so called Iran crisis do you?

YES, the enemy was Russia, not Cuba. The Russians wanted to establish a missle base there  right on our doorstep. The flight time would have then been minimal, we could not allow that. Other than cigars why would we invade Cuba?? POWDERMAN. 

[Hooker]

 
In order for something to be a Right it must never impede the Rights of others.
That being said we do have the Right to protect ourselves as do other countries.
If one country threatens another I believe that to be an open invitation for hostility. If a country is threatened I believe that country is justified in answering that threat by attacking the offending country or taking the appropriate steps neutralize that threat. Not doing so opens the door to more threats which will eventually embolden the enemy to the point that they do us harm. Not all threat need to met with violence but it must always be an option. It is the duty of the government to maintain our defense and the country's welfare. The government holds no Right to attack ,but is bound by duty to protect the country.

Pat

[yellowtail3]

YES, the enemy was Russia, not Cuba. The Russians wanted to establish a missle base there  right on our doorstep. The flight time would have then been minimal, we could not allow that.

Well, we were surrounding them with missiles, on their doorstep. Their move was not an unreasonable one.

[lgm270]

Under the Bush Doctrine, the Japanese were entirely correct and morally justified in bombing Pearl lHarbor in 1941 because the FDR administration was planning to attack Japan by bombing Japanese cities with B-17 bombers with American pilots and Chinese markings.   Under the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive war, the Japs were morally and legally justified in bombing us first.

All of these wars are bogus:


In 1916, we were told that dirty rotten Germans were going to conquor the world and take away our freedom. Admiral Byrd delivered a speech in Chicago in 1916 and said the Germans had "flying machines" that would enable them to bomb Chicago.  The following year we were in WW1. The truth:  Germany couldn't even defeat France and was bogged down on the Western Front in trench warfare. The Germans were no threat to the US. Bear in mind this was years before the Lindbergh first solo flight across the Atlantic Ocean in 1921. 
 
In 1940 FDR said American boys would not fight in foreign wars, while he was tirelessly working behind the scenes to get us into WW2 to prevent the dirty rotten Germans from conquoring the world.   Fact:  Germany could n't even get across the  English Channel to invade Great Britain or even achieve air superiority over London.  Germany was no threat to anyone except the torturers and murderers who ran the Soviet Union. IF Germany had won WW2,  there would have been no Cold War,  no Korean War, no Viet Nam War, no Communist Cuba, etc. 

Iraq War.  We were told Iraq was developing weapons of mass destruction, blah, blah, blah and that Iraq was going to conquor us and take away our freedom.  Truth:  Iraq  had a long war with Iran and couldn't even defeat that rival third world country.  Iraq was no threat to the US.

Iran?  Now we're told that Iran is going to conquer us and take away our freedom and destroy us, blah, blah, blah.  Fact:  Iran hasn't invaded another country in two centuries.  Iran has a flourishing, prosperous Jewish community that is represented in the Iran national legislature.  The US along with  Great Britain and the USSR invaded and occupied  Iran in WW2, and in 1953 the CIA helped depose a democratically elected head of state. More recently the US has engaged in acts of war against Iran with drones, sabotage and assassination.  Newt Gingrich, GOP presidential hopeful, openly called for "taking out" Iranian scientists.  This is openly advocating the  murder
of citizens of other countries without trial or any authority whatsoever.  The only other country I've ever heard of openly threatening to come to the USA and commit murders is our "ally", the Jewish state of Israel, which has always taken pride in its killing ability, just like professional criminals who brag about their "hits." 

These wars are bogus and always have been.  When are stupid, blind American sheep going to wake up?   The US is being invaded by Mexican vermin from across our undefended Southern border, not by Iranians.  Bring home our military, put them on the Southern border and start shooting Mexicans for a change.  They're the ones who are  stealing  jobs and tax payer funded  benefits from hardworking   Americans.   

 

[BBF]

....................
......................................

 Although part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted; it was authored by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but then rejected by President John F. Kennedy.

Did JFK fire the whole lot of them?
 
Considering their Oath they should have been Court Marshalled and sent to Leavenworth for Life.

[BBF]

Under the Bush Doctrine, the Japanese were entirely correct and morally justified in bombing Pearl lHarbor in 1941 because the FDR .................
............................................................................

 
OH MY !!
 
That is going to stir up the pot big time.
 
BTW. Nice post and in the 10 ring.

[magooch]

Igm270, at least you are more selective in who we should be at war with.
 
Some of what you wrote was new to me.  I don't remember anyone of any consequence saying that Iraq would conquer us and for that matter, I don't think many believe that Iran could conquer us.  However, they could cause us a lot of problems. 
 
I'm not sure how to take your assertion that many wars would have been averted if Germany had been allowed to win WWII.  Were you rooting for them?

[yellowtail3]

lgm270...re: post #59....that's about the size of it, good post.!

Yeah, except for that part about Lindbergh flying the Atlantic in 1921....

[Pat/Rick]

We as a nation do not have the right to dictate to another nation. Sovereigty is just that. We do have the right to defend ourselves or act upon aggression. Not until.
 
The US has been very intrusive and aggressive these past years and need to modify their stance to a more Jeffersonian philosophy of open with all for trade, but not to become involved with foreign entanglements.
 
Do we feel anymore threatened by ________, as they might feel the same towards us? If history is to be part of this, we may as well include "manifest destiny".
 
The pick and choose policy of the US, say iran and korea, is a sure sign of political policy, and empire building bravo sierra. All IMO of course. YMMV

[lgm270]

Igm270, at least you are more selective in who we should be at war with.
 
Some of what you wrote was new to me.  I don't remember anyone of any consequence saying that Iraq would conquer us and for that matter, I don't think many believe that Iran could conquer us.  However, they could cause us a lot of problems. 
 
I'm not sure how to take your assertion that many wars would have been averted if Germany had been allowed to win WWII.  Were you rooting for them?

I was not born until after ww2 and was not "rooting" for anyone. I was in the thick of the cold war, however,  and having studied WW2 as a kid I could not help but notice that as soon as the Germans folded in 1945  the West had to take up the war against communism that Hitler commenced.  It was not lost on me.   The Cold War of the next 50 years was us finishing the fight started by Hitler.  He was right. We were wrong in allying with Stalin.   The Germans were fighting for a Europe safe from Bolshevism.  We fought to make the world safe for communism. 

As a young person interested in history and current events, I met many Europeans  who had been in various countries during WW2.  Behind closed doors and in private, they disclosed that the real liberators of Europe were the Germans, especially of Russia.  I knew people from France and the Low Countries who said the Germans were much better behaved than the American "liberators" who were drunk most of the time and took whatever they wanted whether looting houses or raping women.  The Russian raping of German women is well known, but the Americans were disgusting in their treatment of the civilian populations of France and other countries as well.  They took what they want and shot locals who protested.  I met a French university  professor who was a teenager in occupied France.  He hated the German troops in his small town ...until the American arrived.  He said that in four years of occupation the Germans never looted a single house or assaulted a single French woman.  The locals never worried about the safety of their families or their wives and daughters under German occupation.  Young German soldiers would make goo-goo eyes at French girls, but that was it.  When the Americans arrived, however, all women over 12 were fair game.  He said that women would ask him to walk with them in public because a woman accompanied by a male, even a 16 year old, was safer from drunken  American GI's than if alone.  He also said it was well known that allied war planes would swoop down and machine gun French  farmers  in the fields for the sport of it on their way back from missions over Germany.   Bear in mind, the French were supposedly  our "allies."   

There is an ugly vicious underbelly of US cruelty and atrocities in WW2  that has been largely ignored and covered up, although some books are beginning to trickle out, half a century later. 

Hitler had no designs on the British or the USA.  Hitler admired the British and offered them generous peace terms after Dunquirk....they were refused by Churchill who had some personal reason for wanting the world to be safe for Communism.  Even Churchill said, after WW2, that "we killed the wrong pig."   George Patton said we fought the wrong people.    As I sweated out the Cuban Missile crisis and other Cold War incidents it  occurred to me that none of that would have been necessary if Germany had been allowed to wipe out the USSR.   

 It is no longer reasonably subject to dispute that FDR and Churchill were spoiling for war with Japan and FDR had plans to bomb Japan with American planes and pilots marked with Chinese insigna.   

It's time to get over the lies and propaganda that have poisoned the issue of the history of the two WW's.  Both were frauds and we should have stayed out of them.     

[Bob Riebe]

Igm270, at least you are more selective in who we should be at war with.
 
Some of what you wrote was new to me.  I don't remember anyone of any consequence saying that Iraq would conquer us and for that matter, I don't think many believe that Iran could conquer us.  However, they could cause us a lot of problems. 
 
I'm not sure how to take your assertion that many wars would have been averted if Germany had been allowed to win WWII.  Were you rooting for them?

I was not born until after ww2 and was not "rooting" for anyone. I was in the thick of the cold war, however,  and having studied WW2 as a kid I could not help but notice that as soon as the Germans folded in 1945  the West had to take up the war against communism that Hitler commenced.  It was not lost on me.   The Cold War of the next 50 years was us finishing the fight started by Hitler.  He was right. We were wrong in allying with Stalin.   The Germans were fighting for a Europe safe from Bolshevism.  We fought to make the world safe for communism. 

As a young person interested in history and current events, I met many Europeans  who had been in various countries during WW2.  Behind closed doors and in private, they disclosed that the real liberators of Europe were the Germans, especially of Russia.  I knew people from France and the Low Countries who said the Germans were much better behaved than the American "liberators" who were drunk most of the time and took whatever they wanted whether looting houses or raping women.  The Russian raping of German women is well known, but the Americans were disgusting in their treatment of the civilian populations of France and other countries as well.  They took what they want and shot locals who protested.  I met a French university  professor who was a teenager in occupied France.  He hated the German troops in his small town ...until the American arrived.  He said that in four years of occupation the Germans never looted a single house or assaulted a single French woman.  The locals never worried about the safety of their families or their wives and daughters under German occupation.  Young German soldiers would make goo-goo eyes at French girls, but that was it.  When the Americans arrived, however, all women over 12 were fair game.  He said that women would ask him to walk with them in public because a woman accompanied by a male, even a 16 year old, was safer from drunken  American GI's than if alone.  He also said it was well known that allied war planes would swoop down and machine gun French  farmers  in the fields for the sport of it on their way back from missions over Germany.   Bear in mind, the French were supposedly  our "allies."   

There is an ugly vicious underbelly of US cruelty and atrocities in WW2  that has been largely ignored and covered up, although some books are beginning to trickle out, half a century later. 

Hitler had no designs on the British or the USA.  Hitler admired the British and offered them generous peace terms after Dunquirk....they were refused by Churchill who had some personal reason for wanting the world to be safe for Communism.  Even Churchill said, after WW2, that "we killed the wrong pig."   George Patton said we fought the wrong people.    As I sweated out the Cuban Missile crisis and other Cold War incidents it  occurred to me that none of that would have been necessary if Germany had been allowed to wipe out the USSR.   

 It is no longer reasonably subject to dispute that FDR and Churchill were spoiling for war with Japan and FDR had plans to bomb Japan with American planes and pilots marked with Chinese insigna.   

It's time to get over the lies and propaganda that have poisoned the issue of the history of the two WW's.  Both were frauds and we should have stayed out of them.   

This is opinion or heresay and not much more.
FDR gave away Eastern Europe, the NAZI party in the US faded because of WWII, if the rape of Nanking is not hideous then the Japanese were not such bad people either.

[magooch]

Let me see if I've got this straight; FDR and Churchill were evil monsters and Hitler was a benevolent pacifist.  And here I've been so misinformed for all these decades.

[yellowtail3]

Let me see if I've got this straight; FDR and Churchill were evil monsters and Hitler was a benevolent pacifist.

I've not seen that position laid out anywhere in this thread... where did you find it?

And here I've been so misinformed for all these decades.

That I'm willing to believe.

[Dixie Dude]

I've read the other day that Iran has an agreement with Venesuala to put missles there capable of reaching the United States.  Three well placed EMP bombs could devistate the US.  The have threatened to block the Strait off the Arabian Sea cutting off the oil supply going to most of the world.  They have threatened us and Israel.  Do we take it seriously, or do we allow it to happen?  At least the Soviets tried to be secretive with their ambitions.  Iran just blerts it out.  If an EMP bomb hits over the US, about half the vehicles would die, including trucks, trains, buses, and cars.  Only vehicles in Parking buildings, or garages might not be harmed.  Our food supply is based on shipping.  Grocery stores only have about a two week supply of food without frequent deliveries.  Would banking transactions be messed up?  How about our power grid?  If the grid goes down, lots of people will die.  Those depending on life support systems, dialysis, that have pace makers fried by the EMP, etc.  The special on the Discovery Chanel said as many as 100,000,000 Americans could die within 6 weeks without power.  No refrigerated food, no food deliveries to stores, no modern medicines or equipment to keep people alive.  Phone system would be down including cell phones.  Congress is aware of this and did appropriate $100 million to begin protecting the power grid with Faraday cages.  This is a real, but not much publicised threat.  Only military equipment is protected.  Problem is how about military supplies?  Without the supplies being delivered to the military, how long can they operate?  They have to have food, ammunition, and fuel.  Private companies produce these.  Are they protected?  How about their workers, the workers means to get to work if their vehicle electronics are fried.
 
Threats today are far worse than 200 years ago.  Civilians can be annilated.  The whole society can be brought back to 1900 conditions.  Only the real serious survivalists and the Ammish are prepared for this for long term.