Author Topic: Does any country have the RIGHT to attack another to PREVENT a possible attack?  (Read 6822 times)

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Offline yellowtail3

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No one answered when and where Israel used Nukes.  Only two that I know of was against Japan and it was us that used them.


Well, I'll answer! They have not, so far as I know. I do believe that they possess them... which makes Iran's desire to have them less-than-unreasonable, from the Iranian perspective.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Can't blame Israel for having them.  They are surrounded.  If attacked, they can at least retaliate.  They can't always depend on us. 

Offline BBF

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.............

With all respect , open your eyes , 9/11 and such are not by the rules. They have paid dearly for that attack. We have been strong enough to repel most attacks and punish those who made the successful attacks so far.

Not considering that 9-11 may have been a conspiracy, those folks accused are not done yet.
 somewhat different in some way however old hates are not settled after years. Look what is happening in Baghdad,  16 explosion and 70 people dead plus wounded.
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Offline nw_hunter

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On a personal level, say your neighbor is constantly telling you he is going to beat the tar out of you and starts waving his fist in front of your face.  How close does he have to get before you hit him first?  What if he starts threatening your kids?


Depends! If he's telling me he's gonna beat me up, and he's a 90 lb. weakling like Iran. I'll laugh ;)
If he's 250 lbs of pure mean muscle and is a MMA fighter(like Russia or China), then I'm goin for my gun :o
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Offline BBF

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Good One !  @ NW hunter :)
 
BTW How many Nukes does Israel need if any to defend themselves against enemies that are in some case only an artillery shot away?
 
How to use a Nuke without endangering adjoining countries that have no part of the struggle?  Iran isn't an island in the Pacific.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Saying options are on the table is a far cry from we are going to nuke you. Hogwash is all Boyle is spouting.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Unless the other nations of the world are stupid they know "all options" are on the table . Any fool would know if attacked all weapons would be considered for use. So that statement is just what it is a FACT not a threat. And sure why would we or any other nuke posessing country want others to have them ? If they don't then we may not need to use ours. Treatys have been broken thru out history. In the end only the strength of a nation will preserve it . To allow this strength to be taken away is folly.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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You seem to have forgotten the Cold War With Russia .
So you/Boyle think by allowing nukes into the hands of crazy people and the weaking of the USA would make for a safer world ? If you do then again we disagree .
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Offline Gary G

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Imperialist USA is the biggest aggressor on the planet, spending more on military than all other countries combined. History confirms that if you are a small country, speaking a different language, and have natural resources, especially oil, then you are in danger of invasion. The message sent has been that if you have nuclear weapons, you are safe from attack, which historically has been the case. It is clear why they would want such weapons; what is not clear is if they are indeed pursuing one or is it war time propaganda.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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So do you suggest we wait until they set one off on U S soil ?
TM7, I just mentioned what it appears you are saying . I see we disagree .
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Offline SHOOTALL

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So do you suggest we wait until they set one off on U S soil ?
TM7, I just mentioned what it appears you are saying . I see we disagree .
.
If you're asking me, no I'm not suggesting that....but if 60 to 120 billion $$ intell budget doesn't know what is going on I suggest we are doomed from the git go... ::) What I am suggesting is this Iran nuclear scare is more NWO-Global Governance scenario. BTW, I see de facto US non-elected governmnet, i.e. the CFR, has been ratcheting up Iran war talk now blaming Iran for 9/11 attacks... ???
http://rt.com/news/world-government-conspiracy-therory-657/
See #6......fyi....TM7

The intel is a good point if the $$$ is spent in the right place.
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Offline Empty Quiver

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Imperialist USA is the biggest aggressor on the planet, spending more on military than all other countries combined. History confirms that if you are a small country, speaking a different language, and have natural resources, especially oil, then you are in danger of invasion. The message sent has been that if you have nuclear weapons, you are safe from attack, which historically has been the case. It is clear why they would want such weapons; what is not clear is if they are indeed pursuing one or is it war time propaganda.
If you act as a civilized nation, shut your pie hole about wanting to kill every American citizen, "the great Satan" if you will, you have little to nothing to fear. I'm not a scholar on the subject but I can't think of the last nation we went to war with who acted in a civilized manner.


Harboring terrorists, gets you the same treatment as being a terrorist. I do not buy the idea that there is nothing they can do about their in state problems. Put a bit of effort forward, ask for some help. As you can see we are more than willing to go kick over a hornets nest.
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Offline BBF

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If you haven't got a problem or hornets, we can find something that justifies an invasion as long as you have oil or a stable economy or  Israel wants something you have............... ..Right !!
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Offline powderman

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Quote
If you act as a civilized nation, shut your pie hole about wanting to kill every American citizen, "the great Satan" if you will, you have little to nothing to fear. I'm not a scholar on the subject but I can't think of the last nation we went to war with who acted in a civilized manner.



 
EQ. True, good post. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D
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Offline mcwoodduck

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If you haven't got a problem or hornets, we can find something that justifies an invasion as long as you have oil or a stable economy or  Israel wants something you have............... ..Right !!
Clearly everyone is talking about Iran.
But lets take Iran out of the equasion.  Let's say North Korea.
They have the 4th largest army in the world.  They have nothing else.  No food, no oil, no natural resources.  Nothing.
If the new leader is about to invade South Korea, and launch a missle attack on the Phillipines, Japan, and Tiawan.  If the world does not give them food, fuel, and arms.
Would South Korea, the Phillipines, Tiawan, and Japan be with in their rights to launch an attack to take out the North Korean missle sites or cripple the ability of the army to move South?
If a person is pointing a gun at you and says give me your wallet or I will shoot you, do you have to wait to be shot or shot at before you can shoot at them?  If they say they are going to attack you,  if they say do this or else, physical or deadly extortion allows you to protect your self or others.  Why would it not be OK to do the same thing nation to nation?
 

Offline BBF

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If nothing else, a person to person confrontation is not remotely the same as two or more countries going to war.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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If nothing else, a person to person confrontation is not remotely the same as two or more countries going to war.
Self defense is self defense.
Either state to state or person to person.
Deadly force is transferable.
If we looked at the nation to nation problem the same way we may not have rogue states that threaten and plot.
Clearly if you are confronted by someone in your house and he yells Do as I say or I will kill you, you are justified in killing them, if they are armed or not.  You definatly would do something if you saw him trying to load a gun.   If a rogue nation says we are going to kill you, and you discover they are trying to build a nuke why would you not use force to stop them to protect your self and your friends?

Offline Gary G

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Here is what Iran has repeatedly said:[/size]

"Iran argues that as a signatory to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and a member of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), it has every right to develop and acquire nuclear technology for peaceful purposes.
[/size]The IAEA has conducted numerous inspections of Iran's nuclear facilities but has never pointed to any evidence indicating that Tehran's civilian nuclear program has been diverted to nuclear weapons production."


Where the truth lies, we the people are not allowed to know. But, I do know that when we go to war in the middle east and oil prices jump, big oil, wall street banksters, the MIC, and congressmen make a lot of money at the expense of we the people.



 [/size][/font]
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Offline NWBear

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Clearly everyone is talking about Iran.
But lets take Iran out of the equasion.  Let's say North Korea.
They have the 4th largest army in the world.  They have nothing else.  No food, no oil, no natural resources.  Nothing.
If the new leader is about to invade South Korea, and launch a missle attack on the Phillipines, Japan, and Tiawan.  If the world does not give them food, fuel, and arms.
Would South Korea, the Phillipines, Tiawan, and Japan be with in their rights to launch an attack to take out the North Korean missle sites or cripple the ability of the army to move South?
If a person is pointing a gun at you and says give me your wallet or I will shoot you, do you have to wait to be shot or shot at before you can shoot at them?  If they say they are going to attack you,  if they say do this or else, physical or deadly extortion allows you to protect your self or others.  Why would it not be OK to do the same thing nation to nation?
 


I am glad you brought up N. Korea, they are one of the most misunderstood Nuclear countries, and they have NOTHING to lose.
However a counter point, if the largest army on earth was camped on our border would WE consider that an imminent  threat?
We have been camped on their border for 60 YEARS?????
Also the last time anyone was near enough to point a gun at us (and hit us) was the Cuban Missile Crisis, before that Pearl Harbor.  In the mean time we have invaded; Korea, Vietnam, Iran (hostage rescue), Bosnia, Sebia, Kuwait, Somolia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan (OBL kill) etc.
Who's pointing the gun at whom?
I am all for DEFENSE when the US or our CLOSE allies are threatened (for real).  You attack us, prepare for the end - no holding back in a PC war effort.


9/11 is a different case, and in my opinion DID NOT warrant invading Iraq or staying in Afghanistan.  Did we invade Michigan when Timothy McVeigh bombed the federal building?


I feel the NeoCons are leading us to war with Iran - but the ones who will profit are not the ones who will pay that price.
NWBear   

Offline scootrd

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TM7 ,
not sure why you state they were sold to China. See below

Germany is saying that the missiles are part of a legit arms transfer to South Korea.Germany has sold Patriot before to South Korea during times of high tension with North Korea.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/finnish-police-detain-ukrainian-captain-officer-in-missile-and-explosive-shipment/2011/12/22/gIQAMWPOBP_story.html
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Offline scootrd

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I' m not much on conspiracy theories.  Usually the most likely scenario is the true one. No. Korea are nut jobs. Militants to the extreme. There is a transition taking place and It would make more sense to me A message is being sent to No.Korea , That the south is beefing up defences.  Even So. Korea has acknowledged the legal sale.

  South Korea hopes that a shipment of Patriot missiles it purchased from Germany, currently impounded in Finland, will be turned over as soon as possible. The South Korean Ambassador to Helsinki told YLE he believes that the interruption of the shipment was the result of poor communication among the European parties involved. Long standing arms sales deals between Germany and South Korea got a new twist just before Christmas when the ship carrying the most recent shipment of missiles was held up by Finnish officials when it called at the port of Kotka.  The missile shipment itself was legal, but lacked the transit papers needed to be moved in and out of Finnish territory. The vessel, the Thor Liberty, is still in Kotka and the missiles it was carrying are being stored elsewhere. South Korean Ambassador Dongsun Park told YLE on Wednesday that his country would like to take delivery of the missiles without further delay. "The delay has caused some little inconvenience. Of course, we Koreans would like to have them as early as possible for the safety of the country and for peace of the country," said Park.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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I am glad you brought up N. Korea, they are one of the most misunderstood Nuclear countries, and they have NOTHING to lose.
However a counter point, if the largest army on earth was camped on our border would WE consider that an imminent  threat?

I would doubt it , the 2nd amnd. allows many Americans to be armed. This has surely kept even the largest of armies at bay .  ;)
 
In the case of NK they were pushed back to their present position
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Offline NWBear

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I am glad you brought up N. Korea, they are one of the most misunderstood Nuclear countries, and they have NOTHING to lose.
However a counter point, if the largest army on earth was camped on our border would WE consider that an imminent  threat?

I would doubt it , the 2nd amnd. allows many Americans to be armed. This has surely kept even the largest of armies at bay .  ;)
 
In the case of NK they were pushed back to their present position


Given this we should have no problem defending our BORDERS (MAINLAND USA) from Iran - WITHOUT going to Iran.  Also N. Korea can feel comfortable with the US Army camped on its border and NOT consider this an imminent threat - justifying a pre-emptive strike...

Offline SHOOTALL

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You need to think beyond conventional land war. there are cyber attacks from NK and china and others. There are other forms of attack that destory trade and oil flow . These are why it is silly to liken the attacks of nations to a hold up on the street.
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Offline epanzella

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You can bet your favorite rifle that as soon as Iran has functioning nuclear weapons, they will start planning their attack on Isreal. Does Isreal have the right to strike first to save millions of their people? Who cares? They certainly don't care what we or anyone else thinks or does in response to their doing a premptive strike. Their country is only 7 miles across and is surrounded by enemies that have refused to even consider Israel's right to exist. Any sanctions or blustering the world aims at them is nothing compared to being nuked. 

Offline scootrd

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I' m not much on conspiracy theories. 
Well you should be more of a conspiracy Reality Theorist on stuff like this.

TM , my source was Washington post .. Was your source main stream or a conspiracy site? please cite. Thanks
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Offline NWBear

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You need to think beyond conventional land war. there are cyber attacks from NK and china and others. There are other forms of attack that destory trade and oil flow . These are why it is silly to liken the attacks of nations to a hold up on the street.


On this we agree.  However the thrust of the last 10 years has been "conventional war" (at least as it exists today).  We should be developing non "boots on the ground" strategies to deal with these VERY REAL threats.  This is where we should be investing valuable resources, not worrying about Iran having a nuke to use against us.  As you said Israel will take care of a nuclear Iran.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Clearly everyone is talking about Iran.
But lets take Iran out of the equasion.  Let's say North Korea.
They have the 4th largest army in the world.  They have nothing else.  No food, no oil, no natural resources.  Nothing.
If the new leader is about to invade South Korea, and launch a missle attack on the Phillipines, Japan, and Tiawan.  If the world does not give them food, fuel, and arms.
Would South Korea, the Phillipines, Tiawan, and Japan be with in their rights to launch an attack to take out the North Korean missle sites or cripple the ability of the army to move South?
If a person is pointing a gun at you and says give me your wallet or I will shoot you, do you have to wait to be shot or shot at before you can shoot at them?  If they say they are going to attack you,  if they say do this or else, physical or deadly extortion allows you to protect your self or others.  Why would it not be OK to do the same thing nation to nation?
 


I am glad you brought up N. Korea, they are one of the most misunderstood Nuclear countries, and they have NOTHING to lose.
However a counter point, if the largest army on earth was camped on our border would WE consider that an imminent  threat?
We have been camped on their border for 60 YEARS? ??? ?
Also the last time anyone was near enough to point a gun at us (and hit us) was the Cuban Missile Crisis, before that Pearl Harbor.  In the mean time we have invaded; Korea, Vietnam, Iran (hostage rescue), Bosnia, Sebia, Kuwait, Somolia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan (OBL kill) etc.
Who's pointing the gun at whom?
I am all for DEFENSE when the US or our CLOSE allies are threatened (for real).  You attack us, prepare for the end - no holding back in a PC war effort.


9/11 is a different case, and in my opinion DID NOT warrant invading Iraq or staying in Afghanistan.  Did we invade Michigan when Timothy McVeigh bombed the federal building?


I feel the NeoCons are leading us to war with Iran - but the ones who will profit are not the ones who will pay that price.
NWBear   
Our so called invasions lets look at them.  Korea in 1950.  The leader of South Korea was a huge anti communist and the US feared he would invade the North and start the capitalist communist war and did not give him weapons for protection and instead acted as a protector.  When  an armed North Korea invaded the South trying to enslave them the US army filled the role of the protector and fought the North back to China at that point the Chineese invaded and attacked us.  We are camped there as the war hasd not ended.  It was a truce not a treaty ending the war.  The truce is a prolonged cease fire and that is why we are sitting there.  I had a SGT in military school that had just come back from Korea and had been on multiple ambushes in the south where he was in fire fights from invading NK troops.  In the 80's there was a tunne lfound under South Kora that streached about 20 miles behind the DMZ.
Viet Nam was a fiasco, we were there for the wrong reasons, the war was not winnable with too many restrictions and the lack of support at home that caused the enemy to act bolder.  Gen Giap said that he was about to surender but the Peace movement in the US  had a second wind to his campaign and if it were not for them he would not have won.
Panama, and Gernada   were p[olice actions.  One was a rescue operation the other was to arrest a drug lord that had taken over the country.
Kwait, was to stop Sadam and hios lust for power and protect a Westernized Arab country and protect Saudi Arabia, an other of our allies in the area
Bosnia, and Somolia were Clinton goofs in trying to use the Army  as meals on wheels.
Somolia - was an al Quida attack on the US Military directly and with Clinto pulling out made Al Quida stronger and bolder to attempt to kill more.
The failed attempt to rescue the hostages in 1979 was a reaction to an attack on US soil  the Embasy is US soil!  The occupation and taking of hostages was a direct attack on us.
The invasion of Afganistan was as a result of the 9/11 attack and the attempt to get the planners of the attack.  When the leadership of the country protected the terrorists we went in to get them.  We gave them every oppertunity to hand over the terrorists.  They said NO.
Iraq the second time was due to intelegence that both the Bush and Clinton administration understood that Sadam was developing weapons and the understanding that they were looking to work with the terrorists to hurt us.  On the flip side of that coin.  So far we have freed millions of poeple, torture is not longer the rule, rape rooms are no longer used..  You no longer have a dictator and his evil sons drivbing down the road picking this person or that and torturing them because they dared sneeze, there wife was pretty and they wanted her.   Reguardless of your political leanings both parties administrations said he was developing WMDs again.  That there are millions of people better off for he sacrafice that our military has made to free them.
I am not for war with Iran, but on the same note I do not think we should back down from them.  If we think they are building a bomb we need to stop it.  If we as a country say we are going to stop them, we are going to protect our allies.  And we are willing to fight them to stop theur agression.  They will back down.  If you have the Ron Paul crowd that says well even if we are attacked well as long ads they do not invaed ...... they will push their hate adgendas.  Be it Iran, North Korea, or the New Egypt, lybia or China.
 
 
 

Offline Gary G

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You are correct mcwoodduck. It has been a century of perpetual war for America and many tears for many unfortunate families not to mention the loss of wealth to the population.

Ironic, isn't it, that Costa Rico abolished it's entire military in 1949, spending the saved money building schools, and has lived in peace and prosperity ever since. Their idea was if they had no army, they would not be perceived as a threat to anyone and would be left alone.

Isn't it ironic too that Switzerland has not been in a war in over 200 years. Aren't they the ones that mind their own business and follow the policy of Jefferson..............(or Paul).


A century of perpetual war!
Do you reckon that just maybe we are doing something wrong? (just food for thought)
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Offline SHOOTALL

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If we are doing something wrong it may well be trying to keep the standard of living high in this country ( for some any way). The need for us to have raw materials and products at cheap prices requires a global control on our part. It seems our economy thrives on war. I don't condone it just pointing out the obvious .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !