Author Topic: Mortar tube design question  (Read 3132 times)

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Offline holychrome

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Mortar tube design question
« on: December 20, 2011, 07:15:09 PM »
Hi all,


I've been searching though the postings hunting for someone else playing with a similar construction method but with no luck.


I've got a giant helium cylinder 19" in dia. by 12 feet long and rated at 6,000 psi.  I've been itching to turn one end of it into a mortar tube but could never figure out what I was going to fire out of it.   Between figuring out how to make a projectile around 17" in dia (and what it would weigh) and the thought of how much powder a shot would take to hoist it upwards kept me from doing anything with this tank. 


Then I had a eureka moment:  nest an oxygen tank inside the helium tank.  The helium tank would then act as a containment vessel in case the inner tube ever ruptured.  I'd then make an end cap to fill the space between them, ie. a 19" circular steel plate with a 9" hole in the center.  Weld it all together and it can fire bowling balls and won't cost a fortune to shoot.


This design begged the question of what to do with the space between the two cylinders.  Concrete was my first thought but I worry that the concussion from firing would pulverize the concrete over time.  Then I thought about filling the space with compacted sand.  It could also be filled with water but there might be a risk of overheating and turning it into a steam bomb on top of corrosion issues. Or it could be left empty trusting the helium tank to contain a failure.  Based on the data stamped on the helium tank I've calculated that the wall thickness is around 1" but won't know for sure until I put a cutting torch to it.


I've been turning these choices around in my head for a couple of weeks now and still don't have a clear front runner to go with.  I'd love to hear some feedback of what ya'll think of the options I've outlined. 


Is there anything I'm not thinking about? 


Thanks Ya'll


Offline BoomLover

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2011, 07:23:47 PM »
Welcome to the forum, holychrome! That sounds like an ambitious project....stick around and you will get plenty of feedback! Haven't seen anyone on here with an idea such as you describe, but we have some pretty good cannon, mortar, and howitzer builders on here. I'm sure you will get some feedback.... BoomLover
"Beware the Enemy With-in, for these are perilous times! Those who promise to protect and defend our Constitution, but do neither, should be evicted from public office in disgrace!

Offline Winger Ed.

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2011, 07:41:18 PM »
That's gonna be a really cool project.
Since the Oxygen cylinder is OK for the bowling ball mortar all by itself-
I wouldn't think a liner between it and the Helium cylinder is going to be a real critical safety factor.
However; corrosion is a problem.  I'd leave a way to get between there to be able to clean & oil the gap.
 
You could make a slip on ring insert to fit between them that is removable for firing and/or cleaning.
If it fit flush with the end of the barrel-
you'd be 90% of the way to making a barrel that looks like the 'soup pot' design of the 13" costal defense mortars.
 
You may need to do some planning on the fuse liner.
Maybe ending up with a semi-permanant/'normal' one in the O2 cylinder for firing it.
Then a second, removable/fake one as a plug to fit over a access port in the Helium cyl. just for looks and static display.  Otherwise, you're gonna have a REAL long fuse hole liner to deal with.

With some planning and lots of work-
This thing could come out looking like a real historical replica.
"Gone are the days of wooden ships, and Iron men.
I doubt we shall ever see their likes again".
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2011, 09:48:25 PM »
Have you figured out how much it will weigh?  My bowling ball mortar, made from a 10,000 psi cylinder alone, is right at the threshhold of me being able to move it (it has gotten heavier every year.)  Your project sounds even heavier.

Arrrrgggghhh!!!!    :)
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2011, 01:07:46 AM »
HolyChrome -

WELCOME to the board!

Have you thought of using bowling balls as grapeshot?

Holy Bald Headed Cats!  You'd need a wrecker to move the thing around!

(I like folks that think BIG.)

Can't wait to see the pictures of smoke and flame!

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Double D

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2011, 03:49:42 AM »
Fill the space with concrete----what does it matter if it pulverizes

Offline holychrome

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2011, 02:05:48 PM »
As a matter of fact I have though about BB grapeshot :)  But in a cannon made out of the other end of the helium tank that will be about 10' long after I've harvested a mortar barrel off the end.


I've considered making up a kind of wood lathe to take a 2' long tree trunk and turn it down to the barrel dia. (16" =/-) and then making a nose on it.  Sort of a maxiball.


But I digress...


Based on the weight stamped on the cylinder, 1,496 lbs, I'm figuring that 2' off one end will come in at around 250 lbs and finished out with liner, cap and trunnions at 350 lbs. 


However I have an old bobcat skid steer with forks, the swiss army knife of equipment. 


With the frame and all, probably under 600 lbs.  If I filled it with concrete add another 200 lbs.


But on reading the feedback I've decided to not fill it with anything. 


My concern with concrete was that after pulverizing, it would repack differently and leave voids where the liner wasn't supported.  Then every shot might bulge that spot out and initiate a failure.


On interior corrosion, I was thinking about giving the interior a triple dose of the right type of paint/coating/bluing.  It has occurred to me that throwing in a dessicant bag to take up any moisture before sealing it up.


I'm planning on running a threaded rod between the two tanks as both have 1/2" holes already to do this and drilling out the rod for the fuze path.  With nuts on either end it will pull the two tanks together and secure the liner at it's base. 


While I don't know specifics  until I have both tanks cut open to measure I think I can keep this to within a 4" length for the fuze.


I'm going to go cut the helium tank tomorrow.  I'll take pics to post.


This is sooo much fun!


Thanks Ya'll!!!




Offline Double D

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2011, 02:34:46 PM »
 
 

My concern with concrete was that after pulverizing, it would repack differently and leave voids where the liner wasn't supported.  Then every shot might bulge that spot out and initiate a failure.
 

Thanks Ya'll!!!

I think you missing something here.  Your chamber will take the pressure.  The portion where the ball rides is an expansion chamber.  The liner should not need supported in the way you say.  If you develop enough pressure to bulge the bore, you are going to have a much more serious problem with the chamber failing.

Speaking of th chamber, have you given any thought to your chamber design and size?

Offline Winger Ed.

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2011, 08:24:58 PM »
On interior corrosion, I was thinking about giving the interior a triple dose of the right type of paint/coating/bluing.

On my CO2 tank mortar-- the build on it is here on a thread called 'Winger Ed's Winter project'
I primed & painted the inside of the barrel/powder chamber, but left the gap open.  Then hosed it off with spray can oil.  Every month or two, if I go by and it doesn't look wet, I hose it off with oil again.
If I ever see a rust dot, or blister in the paint:
I'll scratch off the loose crud--- hose it down every so often- until I make a 'real' fix. 
----
 
"Gone are the days of wooden ships, and Iron men.
I doubt we shall ever see their likes again".
Unknown US Coast Guard Commander on the upper US East Coast.  Circa 1920

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Offline holychrome

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2011, 09:25:17 PM »
Hi double D


To be honest I'm ignorant of the purpose of a powder chamber.  In doing searches I've seen some cross sections of Coehorn's that showed a large chamber below the tube, clearly to give a lot of room for powder beneath the ball.  But other cutaway's I've seen show what appear to be a small cup at the base of the tube.  I took these as ways to keep a relatively small powder charge together for ignition purposes.  I'd also seen a video where it appeared that the loader took a cup of powder and chucked it into the muzzle of a mortar without trying to hit anything in particular.


My only experience is with a 1.5" bore cannon, my avatar, that I've had about 20 years. 


I know to alway make sure everything's packed tight in my cannon.  I was told to do this by the man who cast the barrel, a family friend.  I've always done as told without really knowing why.


Now that you ask I can see you'd want a small area to hold the propellent to keep air voids to a minimum.  I don't understand the reason why though.


What's the low down on powder chambers?  I searched the forum for the phrase but didn't find anything.

Offline Double D

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2011, 02:00:17 AM »
Your question needs a lot more time to respond than I have right now.  I am getting ready to head out to Idaho for Christmas.  But I will try to give the short course and the others here will jump in and add more.

First the American Guns toss the powder in the bore loading technique---ignorant  that's not how it is done don't do it.

Following the safety guidelines we reference here, the powder chamber where you load the powder should have a wall thickness of no less than one caliber.  In other words if you have a powder chamber 1 inch in diameter then the walls of the chamber should also be 1 inch thick or 3 inches in total diameter.

Here is the working drawing for my  bowling ball mortar showing the  heavy walled chamber. 3.5 inch powder chamber diameter and 10.75 total diameter,



Go to our sticky Safe loads and construction and read that.  Be sure to open every link and look in those documents for additional information. 

If you use just an O2 bottle with no internal chamber with an 8.8 inch bore then the area over the chamber needs to have walls 8.8 inches thick or a diameter of 26.4 inches.  Also not just any O2 bottle will work.  Look in our Reference s sticky there is a section on bowling ball mortars and it tells specifically which tank you need.

Time for me to get busy...Merry Christmas









Offline dynomike1x1

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2011, 12:59:29 PM »
I wonder if he is building it for Pawn Stars.
There are very few probablms that can't be solved with explosives.
2/115FA

Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2011, 03:30:34 AM »
The sound of this project has Dictator model written all over it.  What is the profile of the top of the He tank?  Is it spherical? 

I would construct a BB mortar that would be placed inside of the outer shell.  Then I would support the inner barrel chamber assembly with welded plate, assembly would resemble a wagon wheel from the muzzle end.  This would then fully support the inner mortar and provide multiple chambers to be filled with concrete or sand.  I would most definitely use something like POR or expoxy type coating to minimize corrosion, but after welding and using the fuse hole to vent the enclosed space I would seal it up and really not worry about it.  I would build the BB mortar with a shrink to fit chamber plug and weld it to keep any products of combustion from entering into the annular space. 
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline holychrome

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2011, 10:10:59 PM »
I wonder if he is building it for Pawn Stars.


I'll just bet you dollars to dimes that anyone who tried to get hold of the pawn stars to sell their home made mortar would find that they've already got one and they're not interested in picking up any more.


Ever notice that 20 episodes later you can still see it sitting in the back room collecting dust?


I'm building one because it's going to be fun.  I also have a piece of land that's 1,001 yards deep, that I originally bought to have a place for my son to learn to ride dirt bikes but we don't really use it for that much lately and we're converting it into a long distance rifle range.  So now we'll have a mortar range as well.


Besides, I'm in Texas, I'd get better money for it here :)

Offline TAUREANHARE

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2011, 03:54:24 PM »
Responding to holychromes question about powder chamber.  Somewhere I remember reading a detailed discussion on the topic.  It may have been relative to handgonnes.  Simply put, the powder burns hotter and gives off more energy in a confined space.  Same amount of powder in a smaller diameter space gives off a bigger bang.  A longer skinnier powder chamber would work better than a shorter fatter chamber holding the same quantity of powder.  That's how I read the discussion.  Somebody please straighten me out if I'm wrong. RPG

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2011, 04:23:42 PM »
The construction methods are very much like that of Seacoasts Monster mortar..... to take up the gap between outer wall and inner tube they used a 22 barrel for the fuse hole...... you will need to do something like this also,  unless you are going to have a way of opening up the area between the tubes forget the dessicant bag all it will do is grab up the water and keep things moist since there will be no place for the moisture to go... I had a cannon years ago with a thin shell and heavy liner, the void was filled with concrete it was over  30 years old and was still solid when it was stolen.... so concrete would be one way to go..... hope this helps.
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2011, 03:41:40 PM »
Responding to holychromes question about powder chamber.  Somewhere I remember reading a detailed discussion on the topic.  It may have been relative to handgonnes.  Simply put, the powder burns hotter and gives off more energy in a confined space.  Same amount of powder in a smaller diameter space gives off a bigger bang.  A longer skinnier powder chamber would work better than a shorter fatter chamber holding the same quantity of powder.  That's how I read the discussion.  Somebody please straighten me out if I'm wrong. RPG

If you read about the shape of the powder chamber (included in the articles about the Tannenburg Hand Gonne) a long thin powder chamber gave higher pressures than a wide short one.

More powder, more engergy.  Finer powder, higher (peak) pressure.  One of the two gives you greater range. 

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline holychrome

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2012, 03:07:36 PM »
Hey ya'll I'm back!


Just after Christmas my 2 year long pending divorce went into overdrive and I finally got it settled but things like building a mortar had to go onto the back burner until it was all done.


An experience very much like being drunk........  from the perspective of the water.


Anyway that's why I disappeared from the forum for nearly 2 months.


So this morning my son and I went down and got the helium tank drug into a building and got it cut open.  Turned out to be 18" in dia. with a 3/4" wall thickness.  I put photos up on my hosted pics under the heading of Mortar-project.


Here's a photo of the tank going into the building:


https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/gallery.php?g=Mortar-Project&u=holychrome&i=drag.jpg


After the cut:


https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/gallery.php?g=Mortar-Project&u=holychrome&i=in2.jpg


https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/gallery.php?g=Mortar-Project&u=holychrome&i=diameter.jpg


And to home with our prize:


https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/gallery.php?g=Mortar-Project&u=holychrome&i=home.jpg


Tomorrow I'm off to hunt down the elusive 3AA2400 tank.  I was wondering what a reasonable price was to pay for a new one from my friendly neighborhood gas supply company???






Offline BoomLover

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2012, 04:48:12 PM »
That is one big tube! Going to make an interesting project, and great pics!
"Beware the Enemy With-in, for these are perilous times! Those who promise to protect and defend our Constitution, but do neither, should be evicted from public office in disgrace!

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2012, 06:20:46 PM »
holychrome quote:
 
Quote
I'll just bet you dollars to dimes that anyone who tried to get hold of the pawn stars to sell their home made mortar would find that they've already got one and they're not interested in picking up any more.


Ever notice that 20 episodes later you can still see it sitting in the back room collecting dust?
 
 

Truth is Rick and Craig (the seller) have been friends since long before stardom of Pawn Stars.  Craig is also a major mountain west powder distributor.  Anyway, Craig told me that Rick is not too much different than most of us on the GBO BPM&C board and really DOES NOT want to sell that mortar but regurlay (I suppose between episodes) gets out and shoots the puppy... ah yes... boom, fire and smoke IS TRULY VERY addictive.  :)   :D   ;D    Besides what better place to pick up on cheap, second-hand bowling balls than a pawn shop?  8)

Offline holychrome

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2012, 12:00:02 AM »
I have a good friend who for twenty years had a pawn shop here in town (College Station, Tx) who's just like them guys in Vegas. I think it's a breed trait with pawn shop operators to play with matches :P  The only thing odd about pawn stars is that they don't have an FFL, never seen a pawn shop that didn't have a wall full of guns. 


I was given a small cannon, the one seen as my avatar, 20 years ago by a family friend who ran a machine shop in San Antonio and cast tubes for fun.  I can't seem to wear the "new" off of this dude.  His used to bring his cannon out to our ranch on July 4th to shoot it.  While sorting and separating photo's the other day I found some pics of his pet.  Check these photos out:


https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/gallery.php?u=holychrome&g=PeeWees-Cannon


I'm the one grinning like a possum in the grey tee shirt......


Offline holychrome

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2012, 08:28:34 AM »
Here's the design for my powder chamber:





Unscrew the nut holding the powder chamber in place and attach the handle to remove from the expansion chamber for cleaning.


Fuse runs through the threaded rod that holds everything together.  No welds to get contaminated.


I just picked up a 3AA2400 bottle today 9.25" dia. as advertised, $351   Painful but worth it!


Construction on the chamber:  going to make a casting of the interior of the bottle and then measure it to see if it's spherical.  If it is then I'll have it CNC milled out of steel.


Comments???

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2012, 09:22:13 AM »
An interesting design; I assume that through bolt will be pretty large, 3/4" to 1" so the hole will not weaken it much.  I think you should think about something other than fuse for ignition as that is a long hole and could cause the fuse to go out as well as taking a long time for ignition.
GG
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Offline holychrome

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2012, 01:51:13 PM »
Yes, at least 3/4" for the connecting rod.  The bottle is going to have NPT so I can't use it's threads but I plan on drilling those out and fitting the connecting rod to the size I end up selecting.  The length is probably going to be over 8" but won't know until I cut the bottle and see what the profile I'll have to deal with.  The type of fuse I've always used would give a minimum burn of about 30 seconds @ 3 sec/in.  Figured that I'll have to have a pipe cleaner handy to keep the vent clear due to the length.


I hadn't considered electric ignition but had thought about a percussion cap/hammer but all my experience with those are with muzzle loaders and don't know if they'd produce a flame as long as I'd have to have with this design.  I'm about to get into reloading 50bmg rounds, what about a primer from that round?  OH! what if I used a .22 LR blank, or other caliber:  cut down a barrel and could use that for ignition?  I've got a couple of cheapo starter pistols.  It'll be hung off the bottom of the mortar and wouldn't really be seen.  Then I could load it up and have 6 primer shots at a time.  I'd just have to cut threads in the pistol barrel and in the rod to screw them together.  That would be really cool and have a built in safety.


Offline Double D

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2012, 02:15:40 PM »
I Under stand what you are trying do.  It seems you are thinking this out pretty good.  But I  am don't know what your thought process is so, I have some questions.

If you have the ability to machine a spherical end on the chamber, why don't do the  mouth of the chamber  spherical also? 

I don't like the placement of the vent.  Why are you  not doing the conventional system?

How are you going to attach the trunnions?

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #25 on: February 29, 2012, 02:18:24 PM »
I LIKE the insertability of your powder chamber!

Reminisent of the KIS principle, elegant -

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline holychrome

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #26 on: February 29, 2012, 04:24:14 PM »
I Under stand what you are trying do.  It seems you are thinking this out pretty good.  But I  am don't know what your thought process is so, I have some questions.

If you have the ability to machine a spherical end on the chamber, why don't do the  mouth of the chamber  spherical also? 

I don't like the placement of the vent.  Why are you  not doing the conventional system?

How are you going to attach the trunnions?


The design of the powder chamber was copied off of something I saw on one of the posts in the forum right down to the conical profile though I had wanted to ask if a cylindrical straight sided chamber would work just as good.  I hadn't thought about making the bottom of the chamber spherical because I hadn't seen it done by others.  I think I got the basic dimensions from a gomer chamber I saw that told me that it needed to have a minimum of 1 caliber thickness all around.


But then I read an article a while back about the handgonne and it showed a very deep powder chamber like a 10x depth to it's caliber and I believe it said that the deeper it was the better the chamber worked.


On the vent placement, that's just the easiest most direct way to get fuse to powder.  The diagrams I've seen on the forum have shown the vent coming in at an angle and that would require drilling into the O2 tank and the powder chamber and would require it to be welded into place and I've read that any weld should be avoided when possible due to the micropores inherent in all welds getting contaminates blasted into them and that there's no way to clean that: end result a corrosion weakness will eventually compromise the tube. 


Same deal with the idea of making the powder chamber removable, easy to pull apart to clean and no welds.


I had assumed that the only reason to have the vent come in from the side was that's the "traditional" place to have it for historical purposes and that it really wouldn't matter where it was located and since I already have holes through the base of the O2 tank and I need a connection point right there it was just the natural place to put it.  I'm not overly concerned on making this an exact replica of a civil war mortar.


Also, the stub on the end of the helium tank only appears to be there to have a lift point on each end.  Or perhaps it's there for it to sit in a rack and only be supported at the two ends.  This tank had been used in a lab doing superconductor research and maybe they had it heavily insulated?  In any event after looking at the inside of the tank I see that I can cut that off which would shorten the vent by 2.5".  Looking as my drawings I see that with that stub gone going straight up the back side would be the shortest path to the exterior.


However, I'm all ears to your concerns.  What worries you about this orientation of the vent?


It had also occurred to me that I could set a pair of electrodes in epoxy through the connecting rod and then have a capacitor deliver enough juice to make it jump the exposed gap where they came out in the powder chamber, a sort of home made spark plug.  I'm an old ham radio operator and so I'm all up on spark gaps :)  I'm N5NCV in case there's any op's in the forum.


On the trunnions I'm planning on using the discarded end of the O2 tank to make them.  I'll cut off two sections about 10" long and then cut the profile of the side of the helium tank into one end of the harvested section so that it sits flush.  It's high strength 1/4" steel and should hold the shear force from firing.  Figured I'd do a really deep weld on the inside of the trunnion and then go around with a mig and fill up the seam that will be visible on the exterior and then grind the external welds down with the idea of trying to make it look like the whole assembly was cast rather than welded up.  Then I'll cap the end with plate and weld that on and grind down flush.  If ya'll think this construction method might be weak I could take a piece of 1" x 8.75" flat bar and place it inside the trunnion oriented to be in line with the recoil force to beef it up.


9" trunnions look like the right scale for this size mortar.  Aside from collecting a lot of photo's of carriages I haven't started designing that yet.  I have about a hundred standing dead oak tree's from last summers drought here in Tx and know someone who has a mini saw mill who'll cut whatever sizes of timbers I want but that's about all the thought I've given to what I'm going to mount this on.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2012, 08:26:24 PM »
I think you should experiment with the spark gap before relying on it.  Black powder conducts electricity fairly well and high voltage sparks like barbeque ignitors will not ignite it.  You would need more like a welding arc.  Also, there is the question of an antique ignition system from the ATF perspective.

I was more thinking about using quills which are really fast and would easily work at the length shown.  You can also start them with fuse if you want a little delay.  A lot of delay is not so good as undesirable things can happen if there is too much time between the lighting of the fuse and the firing of the gun.
GG
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Offline BoomLover

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #28 on: February 29, 2012, 08:53:56 PM »
holychrome, your sitting on something called "unintended consequences"..." I have about a hundred standing dead oak trees from last summers drought here in Tx..." and you have a friend with a mini sawmill....that is a business opportunity waiting for you to take advantage of...Lots of guys here looking for oak for carriages, sleds, etc. for their cannons and mortars! Not to mention cabinet makers, furniture makers, lots of other uses....talk about being able to turn lemons into lemonade! (Notice to moderators....I did mention Cannons and Mortars, so I'm on topic!)  8) BoomLover   
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Offline Zulu

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Re: Mortar tube design question
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2012, 02:28:38 AM »
holychrome, your sitting on something called "unintended consequences"..." I have about a hundred standing dead oak trees from last summers drought here in Tx..." and you have a friend with a mini sawmill....that is a business opportunity waiting for you to take advantage of...Lots of guys here looking for oak for carriages, sleds, etc. for their cannons and mortars! Not to mention cabinet makers, furniture makers, lots of other uses....talk about being able to turn lemons into lemonade! (Notice to moderators....I did mention Cannons and Mortars, so I'm on topic!)  8) BoomLover

I know I need 3 1/2" X 3 1/2" oak material.  It's hard to find and too expensive to buy when you can find it.  And I'm in Texas too!
Zulu
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