Author Topic: The Benefits of Pure Lead  (Read 2775 times)

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Offline RandyWakeman

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The Benefits of Pure Lead
« on: January 16, 2004, 03:44:59 PM »
The Benefits of Pure Lead, and Having a Ball without Them

Conflicting information sets abound in muzzleloading, only natural as the information presented by various manufacturers and manufacturer-sponsored shooters bears more than a casual semblance to catalogues and ad copy. Pure lead projectiles have long been taken for granted, and the reasons for the inclusion of jacketed bullets in the first place has long been ignored. Elemental lead has long been held as an ideal bullet material, as it is readily available, easily formable, extremely dense, uniform, and soft enough to expand inside game animals.

Who Needs A Jacket?

Jackets were put on the bullets of cartridge guns primarily to protect the bullets from the damage inflicted by rifling, which can strip the lead from soft lead bullets at velocities over 1400 fps. Once “leading” occurs, accuracy is lost in a Mexican minute, and rifling grooves work best when they are not filled up with soft lead. Lead erosion, vaporization, and flame cutting at the base are a known problem. Successful blackpowder, pure round ball loads, with muzzle velocities of over 2400 fps are well-documented in the literature; however—the pure lead balls used in these loads are protected by cloth patches. Referring to Lyman (Blackpowder Handbook and Reloading Manual, 2nd Edition, published in 2001) you can find a .32 caliber rifle load, a bit larger than the bores of the most popular centerfire hunting rifles, launching a its projectile at a surprising 2,488 fps muzzle velocity. Sadly, this speedy little wonder ball has a dismal ballistic coefficient of .043, and sheds its small amount of kinetic energy with astonishing aplomb. At 100 yards downrange, over 80 % of its energy has vanished, leaving only 111 ft./ pathetic pounds of energy. Our mouse that roared is now a pipsqueak. A factory .22 Hornet cartridge, actually same bullet weight, has over four times that amount of energy left at the same 100 yards. Whatever level of big game animal you might feel a .22 Hornet is good for, our roundball is good for a lot less. Good for nothing seems appropriate. Just how bad is a roundball, you might be wondering? A 545 grain, 75 caliber roundball launched by 120 grains of blackpowder has a more substantial 1432 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Great if a disgruntled caribou charges you, but many of us are forced to take animal at longer distances than the end of our muzzles. Hitting the paper 4 inches high at 60 yards, we can hope to be on the paper at 100 yards. By 150 yards, the same 100 yard zeroed bullet hits 14.49 inches low, and at 200 yards— 41.17 inches low, with less than the recommended 800 fpe ethical minimum for harvesting deer-sized game. Trivia buffs and varmint fans alike will delight in knowing that our now wonderless ball, after over 2 seconds of flight time, will hit with a calculated 300 foot pounds of energy at 500 yards. Naturally, we have cleverly, commendably compensated for our coyote capable ball, with a touch of hold-over for the additional 588.62 inches of drop. Those unhappy with the recoil generated by this load will likely find comfort in the .58 caliber, 566 gr. Lyman conical with 140 grains of Pyrodex RS. Our muzzle energy is now a whopping 2274 fpe at the muzzle, and our lust for pain is satisfied. The energy to whack deer at 250 yards now exists. The accuracy known as trajectory is lacking, with a 6 inch Maximum Point Blank Range of 129 yards despite our passion for self-abuse. Despite our penchant for pain, the ballistic coefficient of .160 inhibits our long range gain. While pure lead has long been proven, the velocity-shedding round ball was a major handicap, finally universally declared obsolete with the bloody remains of some 3.5 million Americans that fell to the first major conflict to exploit aimed fire and conical shaped projectiles—the U.S. Civil War.

When The Sabot Fits, Wear It

In 1985, when Del Ramsey invented the modern muzzleloading sabot, the velocity and windage limitations attributed to conical projectiles in muzzleloading rifles vanished, and the need to externally lubricate them went down the drain with the last Pine-Sol scented batch of “Bore Butter.” The hard to manage, loopy trajectory limitations of the bore-sized conical bullet vanished as well—and now, due to the even far greater ballistic coefficients per grain weight allowed by the smaller caliber, the form of accuracy known as trajectory improved. Lead always meant dead, now it was possible for the average shooter to extend his effective range—without beating his head. No one can shoot a modern saboted projectile through his muzzleloader today, without a big “thank you” to Del Ramsey. That holds true whether the choice is jacketed pistol bullets, or pure lead offerings.

Jacketed Jabberwocky

Several potential problems with jacketed pistol bullets have manifested themselves in one way or another. Used in the beginning merely because they were pre-existing, cheap, and available—the jacketed pistol bullets were never designed for the higher muzzleloading speeds. With a flat base that does not obturate, jackets that can also separate, brittle skins of twenty percent bullet weight, thick petals on sabots they can not tolerate, having cannelures of a sticky plate, hard brittle cores with voids unknown of late, the lack of expansion has sealed their fate. The main problem with jackets on bullets is simply what they are not—and that is lead. Sorely needed with smokeless cartridge guns and high velocity center-fire rounds, the need for jackets has been negated in muzzleloading applications by Del Ramsey’s sophisticated sabotry.

Despite the lyrical exposition of some possible jacket problems referenced in the above, dementedly disjointed prose, they are real issues; while the accuracy of any given jacketed bullet speaks for itself. Aside from the velocity and energy robbing low ballistic coefficients exhibited by many of these projectiles, naturally more pronounced at longer ranges, the issue of core separation persists. So detrimental and widely acknowledged as problematic is core separation from the jacket that every major bullet manufacturers has attempted to address this one way or another in various bonding and framing schemes. Mass is quickly lost as a core separates from its jacket, and massive amounts of energy along with it. In a common mass-produced work hardened bullet, the jacket can split and peel way, finally flattening itself against the shank of the projectile. In the process the newly exposed core breaks off, spinning away from the rapidly rotating bullet. That leaves just approximately 60 % of its former mass to continue on inside the animal. This newly lightened bullet might be recovered just under the hide on the far side, but if it exits little massive blood trail can be hoped for, as the bullet’s retained expansion is minimal.

Lead Advantages

Soft pure lead maintains the uniformity and lack of brittleness (molecular cohesiveness) that has always made it an ideal bullet material. By swaging the lead, the hidden voids and uneven core problems of cast lead jacketed bullets are gone. Swaged lead bullets can be more consistent in weight than cast jacketed, machine made counterparts. Pure lead swaged saboted bullets shorten and belly out upon firing, allowing the use of thicker petals than their non-jacketed counterparts, including double (duplex) sabots. Smaller calibers employed for a given bullet weight offer dramatically higher ballistic coefficients. Muzzleloading bullet diameters are smaller than bore-sized automatically in sabot use. By reducing the bullet size to .357 - .40 caliber (still huge in center-fire land) the flat trajectories are further, and more dramatically improved.

The cold-forming process allows for lead bullets with easy to seat, ballistically superior boat tail or stepped bases. Contingent on sabot, the compression formed lead gives us the option of cylindrical belts, steps, or longer boat tails that allow the bullet to shed its sabot quicker than possible with only flat bases. The shoulder busting, .58 caliber, 566 gr. Lyman conical mentioned above has a ballistic coefficient of .160. No known jacket muzzleloading bullet has a ballistic coefficient of better than .240 in a 250 grain weight—no jacketed bullet in common muzzleloading use today breaks the .300 level regardless of weight. Even the smaller caliber conicals of 460 grains or so do not exceed .300 G1 ballistic coefficient threshold; despite the inherent edge given to their ballistic calculations due their slow muzzle velocity. Yet, .35, .40, .44, and .45 caliber pure lead sabots are available today with ballistic coefficients higher than .350—in as light a weight as 195 grains, that can be fired from .45 or .50 caliber muzzleloaders. These all-lead game getters have been proven accurate inclusive of a velocity limitation of 2350 fps, contingent on specific gun. One contemporary example is the Precision Rifle Dead Center .357, 195 grain saboted pure lead bullet, fired with Triple Seven loose powder at 2280 fps, has Maximum Point Blank Range of over 225 yards with a 6 inch kill zone. At that range, the bullet is still zipping along at over 1800 fps, with over 1400 foot lbs. of kinetic energy available at that range.

Some have historical interest in the arbitrary and ballyhooed John Taylor “Knock Out” value based on observations of charging African game. The KO value is found by multiplying bullet weight times caliber times muzzle velocity and then divided by the 7,000 grains in a pound. The resulting number is Taylor’s “power value” assigned to each load. Proponents feel it has value assessing the killing power of a specific load since it doesn't give as much value to velocity as kinetic energy does. Though the likelihood of being charged by “Afro-Bambi” seems remote to me, this load is deemed “Good” by the Taylor value on deer and sheep out at 800 yards, “Good” on caribou and elk at 400 yards, and “Good” on moose to 300 yards. Had Mr. Taylor not been so distracted by his pachydermial pursuits, the possibility exists that he would have noted more difference between elk and reindeer.

In any case, for one to think that this load could be construed as insufficient for whitetail, the factory .30 / 30 Winchester 170 grain loads offer a lighter, smaller diameter, lower ballistic coefficient bullet with a 25 yard lesser point blank range—with over 30 % less energy on target at 225 yards.

It is the consistency of pure lead, its expandability over a wide velocity range, and its inclination to remain in one contiguous 200% expanded mushroom inside the body cavities of game animals that makes it the superior muzzleloader hunting projectile.

Lead Limitations

All bullets have limitations, and soft swaged lead has a few as well. Despite the new capabilities offered by sabots, 2200 – 2300 fps muzzle velocities are close to the limit where the lead itself can deform in flight due to nose pressure, contingent on specific lead projectile. Soft lead requires more care in seating and handling—nicking up the base of a lead bullet is a proven prescription for a flyer. For African game, the soft lead that performs so superbly may need to be enhanced by soft jackets that can flow with the bullet of .025” to .065” thickness, while giving the deep initial penetration indicated to get through thick, armored hide in the first place.



Quote
“…  It is a fact of life that nobody needs a rifle. He wants a rifle, and he is happier wanting a good example than a poor one. And certainly nobody needs an armory full of rifles.” --Jeff Cooper, 2003.


The thought provoking Mr. Cooper makes good points. The fact of the matter is; nobody needs a muzzleloader at all, much less an accurate one. No one really needs good muzzleloading bullets, much less the best. Need does not factor in to the equation at all. Satisfaction does, though, which is an individual thing. Some of us perhaps are too easily satisfied with equipment performance to suit others, but one’s own vision of satisfaction will always remain just that. Nevertheless, anyone reading this far is not so easily satisfied, and perhaps more interested than most in exploring the potential of their muzzleloading terminal performance. Your entire hunt came come down to only where you place a bullet, and what it is able to accomplish thereafter.

There’s a lot I don’t know. I can’t say how a specific bullet out of a specific gun at a specific velocity on a specific animal at a specific range will perform. We ask a lot from our bullets; we expect them to expand yet penetrate, when most of us know that maximum expansion and maximum penetration cannot be found in the same package—when the former always inhibits the latter. Whether a specific mass-produced jacket bullet might have casting voids or other problems is unknown unless you cut one apart and then they just aren’t much good. It is also hard to say if a cheap jacketed bullet is the best choice in a .50 caliber inline. Most brands only offer two or three choices in bullet weight. You, your gun, and your game either accept that weight, or not.

What I can say is that pure, swaged lead is the most homogenous, consistent muzzleloading projectile material available. It is also available with the highest air-defying ballistic coefficients, and by far the largest variety of bullet weights to suit you, your gun, and your game. At velocities up to 2300 fps or so on North American game animals, there has never been anything to disprove that pure lead is not the very best performer in terminal performance, and mountains of evidence to suggest that it truly is.

There has long been an unfortunate propensity for manufacturers to present guns and ammunition in terms of muzzle velocity and energy. The problem with that is that no game animal is shot off your muzzle. The only thing that matters is what is applied to your animal at the range you are bagging him at. What your bullet might theoretically be doing before and after that point is meaningless. If you have a passion for muzzleloading hunting, there is little excuse for not settling for the very best performer in the only thing your trophy will ever “not see”—the bullet that does all the work for us. No bullet material has been shown to be better than pure, swaged lead for that purpose.



© 2004 by Randy Wakeman

Offline Roger_Dailey

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Re: The Benefits of Pure Lead
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2004, 04:33:42 PM »
Quote
All bullets have limitations, and soft swaged lead has a few as well. Despite the new capabilities offered by sabots, 2200 – 2300 fps muzzle velocities are close to the limit where the lead itself can deform in flight due to nose pressure, contingent on specific lead projectile


I believe some long range and slug gun competitors use paper patching (sabots) and two piece bullets to overcome leading and and bullet slump.  The rear of the bullets are made with soft lead, the streamlined noses are made from harder material.  I suspect the same could be done with soft lead and plastic, but the balance may be better using all lead.  There will be lots of advancements in the next few years.

Offline sheephunterab

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The Benefits of Pure Lead
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2004, 09:36:29 PM »
Bla, Bla, Bla. Once you have driven enough bullets through animals to actually comment, then maybe I'll listen but with your limited experience Randy, how do you come to these conclusions? Jackets are an advantage in a number of situations, especially when you start exceeding 1,900-2,000 fps for accuracy and close-range bullet performance. You just haven't killed enough critters to make blanket statements like these. There is something to be said for the real world. I've been there, done that and come to the conclusion that jackets are a definate advantage in certain situations and I've never felt disadvantaged using them. Killing two or three animals does not make you an expert on real-world hunting bullet performance. Quote all the experts you want and I'll quote mine but the fact remains that your experience if very limited with bullets actually hitting bone or flesh.  Mine is not. We've been down this road before and it's a dead end...for you at least.

Offline RandyWakeman

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The Benefits of Pure Lead
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2004, 09:43:00 PM »
Quote from: sheephunterab
Bla, Bla, Bla.


Isn't that "Baa, Baa, Baa"? Glad you enjoyed the article. :roll: Just what does your experience, that you feel is not "limited" tell you about the performance of pure lead? Ever had swaged pure lead saboted projectiles perform inadequately for you? Is it coincidence that have not named one advantage of jacketed bullets in muzzleloaders yet?

Some statements in the article you feel are inaccurate?

Offline Triple Se7en

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The Benefits of Pure Lead
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2004, 04:13:27 AM »
Randy

What Sheephunter is referring to resembles my experiences using hard cast bullets of lead vs copper clad.

My inexpensive, bulk leaded hard cast ones would keyhole with magnum loads of 777... not so with either Sierra or Speer identical-shaped, flat, soft-pointed copper-clad sabot/bullets.
............. Keep Your Powder Dry ...................

Offline RandyWakeman

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The Benefits of Pure Lead
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2004, 04:53:20 AM »
There is no doubt that hardened lead is a different animal, and can become brittle. It can be hardened to the point where you can shatter it with a hammer.

Frustrated walleye fisherman T. J. Schwanky just enjoys the entertainment value of being contrary for its own sake. I'm just glad I can be of help to him in that regard.

Offline sheephunterab

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The Benefits of Pure Lead
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2004, 05:25:53 AM »
Quote
Frustrated walleye fisherman T. J. Schwanky just enjoys the entertainment value of being contrary for its own sake. I'm just glad I can be of help to him in that regard.


Not at all Randy nor did I say lead was not a good choice. Let's not turn this into a lead versus jacketed debate again because, at least to me, that's not what this is. It's just that lead has a much more limited performance envelope that jacketed bullets. Stay within that envelope and they work excellent.

Offline RandyWakeman

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The Benefits of Pure Lead
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2004, 06:06:23 AM »
Quote
It's just that lead has a much more limited performance envelope that jacketed bullets. Stay within that envelope and they work excellent.


Some might actually think we disagree about that. That of course, is only because we do. There are severe restrictions to both projectiles in muzzleloading use, the minutiae of which may be of interest to only a very, very few. It is all clearly documented right here:

Offline woodseye

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The Benefits of Pure Lead
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2004, 06:22:46 AM »
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Is it coincidence that have not named one advantage of jacketed bullets in muzzleloaders yet?


I'll name the biggest single reason...........CONTROLLED EXPANSION when contacting bone or flesh at close range and high velocity. Its a major reason for jackets and when you hit velocities of about 2900 or more BONDED jacketed become increasingly important also. With the higher powder charges combined with 2300fps and above MV the jacketed bullets will become increasingly popular.

    woods
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Shoot Straight - Shoot Often - Shoot Smokeless - Shoot Savage!


Offline sheephunterab

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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2004, 07:38:00 AM »
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With the higher powder charges combined with 2300fps and above MV the jacketed bullets will become increasingly popular.


Not only popular but necessary!!!!!!!

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2004, 08:19:15 AM »
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I'll name the biggest single reason...........CONTROLLED EXPANSION when contacting bone or flesh at close range and high velocity. Its a major reason for jackets and when you hit velocities of about 2900 or more BONDED jacketed become increasingly important also.     woods


Thank you, Woodseye-- when you can discuss pros and cons, then you have what the Internet is good for: the exchange of ideas.

There can be jacketed bullet advantages, of course. Though I can't name all of them off the top of my head, one of the biggest is that of logistics. With comparatively little care in shipment, packaging handling, loading-- a jacketed bullet still looks like a bullet. Soft lead that is shipped loose, in rattle-prone boxes, bounced around by truck / rail, and thrown up on shelves can easily distort to the point where it does not appear close to a proper bullet. If you can scratch it with your fingernail, it does not take much to compromise the bullet in handling or loading. If anyone wants to prove this to themselves, just put a generous gouge in the base of a few pure lead bullets-- and then try to get them on the paper.

The velocity limitation of pure lead is there, which varies by caliber, powder charge, etc. Lubed, naked, bore-sized lead turns to mush in the 1425 fps area. Saboted lead overcomes this-- to 2200 fps or so, though some have had MOA groups at 2350 fps. Above 2400 fps, even the strongest pure lead proponents admit that the bullet nose can deform in flight, and no longer groups effectively.

The obturation of the lead base that makes it so forgiving (and allows high BC .40 or .429 diameter bullets with thicker petals and accuracy) requires additional considerations in sabot design. The black .45 / 50 MMP sabots built for boat tail lead bullets have a support built in for the boat tail. The boat tail nets a few BC points, gives you a longer bullet, and is easier to load due to the smaller bearing surface. But, without that supported base-- you can have column collapse with hotter loads. You'll see stepped bases, not boat-tails, or cylindrical belts to get the bullet out of the sabot quickly in several .40 / 50 configurations as a result.

Those who want exit wounds are not as likely to find it with a pure lead bullet. Expanding to 200% of its size and causing massive damage though the animal, pure lead forms a thick pancake with no sharp edges. The whacks the hide like a ball peen hammer on the far side. It may exit, it may not-- a heavier jacket bullet is far more likely to-- either due to lesser expansion, or sharp edges when the jacket peels back like a banana. Scissors cuts paper.

Everybody looks at thing differently, as it should be. I've never been in the "majority" for much of anything in my life-- and would actually start to worry a bit if that suddenly became the case. I don't buy into the tortured case for roundballs and rapid velocity  shedding-- even a .72 caliber RB has a BC of .096, if one wishes to go that route.
 
The heavy conical crowd can have it-- there is no evidence that a 495 slug  kills deer family game any quicker / better than a faster 300 grain sabot, and a  lot of evidence that they do not. Sure, I know they work-- if you want to put up with long flight time, and a snowball from hell trajectory. Trajectory and accuracy are the same thing as far as I'm concerned.
 
The "I wanna exit wound" crowd can also have it. You just can't have "maximum" penetration and maximum expansion at the same time. Sure poorly built jacketed bullets  exit-- when they either don't expand well, or produce those cookie cutter sharp edges that slice  though hide, rather than pummeling it on the far side with a lead ball peen hammer.
 
I'll always take the side of reliability and repeatable accuracy. Nothing  particularly good happens without it. All that said, I don't care what anyone cares to shoot-- not my choice to make. But I do care about what I shoot, and for my money-- pure lead is the ticket. Maybe denatured uranium will come down in price one day? Or maybe the Alberta Mafia of T.J. and Richard will show that all this pure lead talk is nonsense?

I do like the quick expansion of this poor soul's head: If his cartoon cranium was jacketed, I believe his expansion would be inhibited.

Offline sheephunterab

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The Benefits of Pure Lead
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2004, 08:28:00 AM »
Quote
Or maybe the Alberta Mafia of T.J. and Richard will show that all this pure lead talk is nonsense?



Not nonsense at all Randy. Lead has its place as do jacketed bullets, just keep them in their respective envelopes. It just happens that the jacketed envelope can carry a little more mail.

Offline sheephunterab

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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2004, 08:30:34 AM »
Quote
Those who want exit wounds are not as likely to find it with a pure lead bullet.


Doesn't this contradict much of what you have said in the past about Dead Centers and what is still written on their web site? Are they not, acording to whoever wrote the text for their web site, designed for pass throughs?

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2004, 08:34:28 AM »
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Doesn't this contradict much of what you have said in the past ?


No. :eek:

Offline sheephunterab

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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2004, 08:47:40 AM »
So, they are not designed for pass throughs?

Offline woodseye

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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2004, 08:49:19 AM »
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Sure, I know they work-- if you want to put up with long flight time, and a snowball from hell trajectory.  


I liked that analogy and the pic it brings to mind is priceless. lol


Quote
do like the quick expansion of this poor soul's head:  If his cartoon cranium was jacketed, I believe his expansion would be inhibited.


Now I believe that if his head was hurled into a large shoulder bone at about 2300-2400fps that the inhibiting factor would be of a positive nature and allow his brains to splatter in a slightly more controlled manner  :wink:

Agree with you on different strokes for different folks Randy........we aren't far apart on the lead vs jackets debate, I just feel the time for thicker sabot bases and higher velocities is here and the jacketed bullets are about to come into their own.

I Know  I Know.......I'm just a velocity fruitcake and like to buzz them 250's a bit but it gives it more of a lazer beam than a snowball trajectory  8)  

Take care and keep on coming up with things to debate.......it beats the trash slinging contests on other ML'er forums  :shock:

      woods
PUT GOD FIRST
Shoot Straight - Shoot Often - Shoot Smokeless - Shoot Savage!


Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2004, 08:54:43 AM »
Full credit is due to Mr. Underclocked for his clever "snow ball" line, adding to his crud ring invention, and numerous other innovations.

Offline woodseye

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« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2004, 09:09:34 AM »
Well said there UC.......although I did use to think the "crud ring" thing was another of those crazy piercings the kids are doing........sorta like scope eye brow.

I'm just getting to the point where his avatar don't make me laugh out loud when I see it.

     woods
PUT GOD FIRST
Shoot Straight - Shoot Often - Shoot Smokeless - Shoot Savage!


Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2004, 09:14:33 AM »
Quote from: sheephunterab
So, they are not designed for pass throughs?


Understanding that you are not a Dead Center fan, and have only a casual interest-- I'll answer in general terms, as Cecil of Precision can give you more precision. Several bullets are designed for complete energy dump, like the Keith nose. QT's were released prior to the higher velocities of T 7, and expand violently when they hit hide. The chance of an exit wound is remote, but can still happen.

Dead Centers do not expand as violently, and exit more often than not. Coupled with that is the fact that they are made from 175 to 340 grain weights, the amount of powder an individual gives them varies, the angle of the shot varies, the distance to game animal varies, and the weight of the game animal varies. I believe I'm trying to say it varies. I'm also wondering why this conical does not exit:

Offline sheephunterab

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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2004, 09:30:46 AM »
Randy, I'd love to continue this facinating dialogue but I'm holding a stag for a buddy of mine today, so it's off to the range to blast away with 9mms, then some laser tag and then just a bunch of fun, so I'll leave you to your own devices here. I'd like to say I'll be thinking of you but I'm guessing I won't. Anyhow, keep your powder dry and please don't take my silence as lack of interest. I'll be back!

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2004, 01:26:52 PM »
The basics of harvesting game animals has not changed for over a hundred years. Of the some 20,000,000 animals harvested annually in North America, no individual can make the claim that they alone have taken a hugely significant number of them. Everyone’s personal experience is “limited” to a severe degree, as for as one’s knowledge—that seems to more of a matter of personal choice.

Anecdotal evidence is one of the lowest forms of study there is, just as “eyewitness” accounts are problematic in a courtroom. While some may feel that pulling a trigger alone is art, it cannot be science. One can learn just as much (perhaps more) witnessing a game harvest than just being the one pulling the trigger. Who actually pulls the trigger is trivia, what follows is not. To think that the only evidence there is with validity can somehow start with a personal pull of the trigger is wrongheaded, for no matter how hard one hunts or shoots in an individual lifetime—statistically, it is meaningless. To set aside the preexisting decades of research on bullet performance is anyone’s choice, but the wisdom of that is debatable.

Those interested in bore-sided lead performance can avail themselves of many resources, even if you are not particularly studious. One need go no farther than this forum to add to their knowledge, if adding to knowledge is what truly is being sought. Veral Smith of Lead Bullets Technology (LBT) is right here to offer insight as to what can be achieved with cast bullets. In his forty years of experience, he has proven that you can indeed have “jacketed performance with cast bullets” in many cases, and has authored a book with the same title to show it.

Lead is the bulletsmith’s element of choice; that is fundamental. Paper-patching, cloth-patching, and metal-patching were all introduced to protect it. “Sabot-patching” is at the highest level in muzzleloading it ever has been, and addresses the same issues. Ballistician Donna Kline is right here on GBO, moderating the swaging forum to explain the subtleties of bullet design, the mysteries of metplat and ogive alike to anyone with sincere interest. As far the article being a “ pure lead versus jacketed” (or anything else) debate, of course it is. That much should be clear by its title.

Offline Underclocked

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« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2004, 01:32:38 PM »
whut?

Not statistically significant but the only statistics that count to each of us are our own.

Gold is too expensive.
WHUT?

Offline RandyWakeman

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The Benefits of Pure Lead
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2004, 01:54:33 PM »
Due to your intense allergic reaction to plastic, most of your proclivities are understandable.

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the only statistics that count to each of us are our own



The "but it didn't happen to me" syndrome is lamentable, if understandable.

Offline bomtek44

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The Benefits of Pure Lead
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2004, 03:33:22 PM »
Good exchange of information and good points made.

Lead has good cohesiveness. It wants to stay stuck together. Lead and gilded jacket material do not really want to stay together. That leads us to premium (bonded) bullets. I have a good half dozen .490 Hornady swaged balls that were recovered from the skin on the off side of unfortunate ungulates. They retained two thirds of their weight and expanded to nickel size. The other 12 deer I killed with these didn't stop the balls.

I also have about 7 260 grain lead Knight hp sabot projectiles that all mushroomed perfectly to double caliber and produced that little bump under the hide on the far side. The other 24 of these bullets killed landscape beyond.

One 260 grain Platinum tip separated. I recovered two tentacles and a bit of lead core material. However, the deer's neck was broken, ribs were broken, and the deer was very dead.

If SST/Shockwaves, PR Dead Centers, or even the lowly 348 grain PB Aerotip shoot the best from my rifle, and I know where to hold, I will hunt with the best shooter. If the best shooter has the best BC then I am really a winner.

Accuracy and terminal performance make the difference for me. They don't look the same when you fire them into gelatin.

Thanks,
bomtek44

Offline Omega

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The Benefits of Pure Lead
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2004, 05:59:28 PM »
Excellent point Bomteck and really the only thing that matters is not what the bullet is made of just whether or not it shoots accurately for you. I can only get pure lead to shoot with any semblance of accuracy at sub 1800 fps. Even at that doddering pace it isn't near as accurate as several other bullets are at much higher speeds. Lead maybe the perfect bullet material, just wrap mine in a jacket so it performs! :)
"Beware all undertakings that require new clothes."

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2004, 08:33:57 PM »
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lowly 348 grain PB Aerotip shoot the best from my rifle,




Even a 348 PB is hardly "lowly" at the ranges muzzleloaders are normally used. There likely will never be consensus as to what is best, as very few shooters come anywhere near trying all their options-- and less hunters. Some feel BC does not matter, that "handgun bullets have no BC." The round ball has long proven that it does matter a great deal at 100 yards.

Much is self-fullfilling prophecy, as the combinations of available bullets and sabots available are either bewildering or unseen by most-- less apparently care. If any 1:28 twist is otherwise an accurate gun, I'd question anybody who says that either jacketed or pure lead sabots cannot shoot accurately. Most try a bullet or two, then quickly move on.

Velocity alone does not tell the whole story-- a .45-70 Government factory cartridge with a 405 grain bullet is only a 1330 fps muzzle velocity round. To say there is a deer family animal it can't dispatch at 100 yards would take quite a leap. The "still sluggish" 300 grain .45-70 300 gr. factory cartridge is an easy 140 yard 6" kill MPBR load, with 1500 fpe on target at that range. Most quality inlines can handily exceed that, and there is nothing to suggest that this cartridge is insufficient for most any North American game.

When Toby developed his latest load list for the Savage at http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/LoadsBallistics.html , no load was listed that didn't give him 1-1/2" or better groups.

It's good to have choices.

Offline Omega

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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2004, 04:44:30 AM »
Most try a bullet or two, then quickly move on

Yes we all know people like that, shoot one good group or an animal or two with a bullet and it is the second coming. I  know you think the the new lead bullets are the reinvention of the wheel and perhaps they are, but in the same way, the term pistol bullets really doesn't have much place any more when referring to jacketed ml bullets. Many of today's new generation of jacketed bullets are designed for ml use with an eye towards higher BC's and performance and have never been fired from a pistol.

140 yard 6" kill

If that was my performance objective, then perhaps a lead projectile and a slingshot would be in my arsenal. The bullet you use in this comparison is not a high bc, not a new or next generation lead wunderkind. You constantly state that for the average ml shooter this is all that is required for performance, fair enough. Using those same numbers and performance envelope then the very product you are trying to promote, the super lead bullet isn't required by today's average ml shooter. The average shooter doesn't care or need to care about velocity or bc, he can just fling a big hunk of lead out there and kill critters. Sounds like maybe the DWBs have it right. Just not in my world. In my world I shoot a fair number of critters in that sub 100 yard range, I shoot just as many out to 200 yards. In fact last season all my ml animals save one were shot at 142 to 220 yards. That is the performance that I look for in my ml, each to their own.

  can easily distort to the point where it does not appear close to a proper bullet

You make a good point; how does the average person know whether a soft lead bullet is compromised and shouldn't be used? If it is so delicate how does it survive the ride down the barrel?  If we have to coddle it from birth to firing what happens to that delicate little bundle when it smashes into a critter?

was listed that didn't give him 1-1/2" or better groups.

Yes I noticed that the bullets that Toby drove the fastest, accurately were jacketed. In fact there was quite a drop in velocity to get a accurate lead load. Randy you may love the lead bullets, great, fine wonderful, I got sucked into the hype and wasted a pile of, powder, primers, money and time. Not again no thank you, there are plenty of other new products to try first.

PS. Don't have a hissy over this, most of this is wrote tongue-in-cheek and meant for a laugh. What ever any of us thinks about the perfect bullet isn't going to matter too much in life. Be happy that we have so little to worry about that we can focus on subjects like this to argue about!
 :D  :-D  :)
"Beware all undertakings that require new clothes."

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2004, 05:00:21 AM »
I'm guessing that your staunch anti-round ball stance has not changed a great deal? :?

Is higher-BC jacketed bullets is the preference, there just isn't much selection out there-- it is SST or forget it, though that is likely to change. In times past, many have decided that 90 - 100 gr. Pyro loads are more than sufficient, and have just sought the most effective down range energy / performance given that type of load.

The 150 gr. pellet shooters are far from the majority, but that holds appeal from some. If the subject is east of the Mississippi whitetail, sub-100 yards, there isn't much to really get excited about.

If true, extreme long range muzzleloading is the focus, it is hard to make a case that the best platform for that is not the Savage 10ML. I personally give a lot of credence to the PR bullet testing, as they are one of the few that fire bullets into deer / pig carcasses again and again at 100 yards from all angles, and document the results. No other mfg. of ML rifle or bullet, to my knowledge, tests their downrange bullet performance to that level on animal flesh and bone.

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2004, 06:45:01 AM »
Randy Cardinal Wakeman,

Since when was the 800 ft-lbs standard raised to "ethical" status?  I always thought that was simply the minimum necessary to produce an "instant drop" on a deer.  Which, I understand, has since been shown to be entirely false.

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By 150 yards, the same 100 yard zeroed bullet hits 14.49 inches low, and at 200 yards— 41.17 inches low, with less than the recommended 800 fpe ethical minimum for harvesting deer-sized game.


You make it sound like it is every hunter's moral duty to go out and spend their hard earned cash on the state-of-the-art weaponry.  

From the way your article reads it almost looks like an advertisement.
Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

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Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2004, 06:49:12 AM »
Quote from: Black Jaque Janaviac
Randy Cardinal Wakeman,

Since when was the 800 ft-lbs standard raised to "ethical" status?


In the 1920s.