Author Topic: Homemade BP?  (Read 1687 times)

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Offline ironball

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Homemade BP?
« on: December 26, 2011, 07:39:21 AM »
Has anyone here tried making their own black powder? As far as I can tell, it's legal if made for personal use. The fireworks guys and rocketeers do it. Some cannoneers must have given it a try. I doubt one could approach the quality of commercial powder, but at less than 1/2 the cost, it should be fine for blank loads. (couldn't be much worse than that old lot of Elephant I still have) ;D
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Offline The Jeff

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2011, 07:49:20 AM »
I personally haven't made any BP, but here's an interesting website where a guy makes some for handgonnes: http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/homemade_bp.html


Give his entire blackpowder section a read, it's good stuff: http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/bp_menu.html

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2011, 11:36:25 AM »
It is possible but it takes a lot of time and unless you make only $5 an hour, the stuff you buy is a better deal.
GG
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Offline ironball

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2011, 11:56:10 AM »
It is possible but it takes a lot of time and unless you make only $5 an hour, the stuff you buy is a better deal.
I didn't mean to put a dollar value on hobby time, that's just dumb. I just wanted to know if anyone did it. The cost is just a plus.
Never let the people with all the money and the people with all the guns be the same people.

Offline keith44

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2011, 11:58:32 AM »
the korning and graphite coating the big guys use make buying it better for me
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2011, 11:59:02 AM »
I made a bit when I was in HS.  Good thing it was super poor quality - otherwise the PIPES I was using for 'cannons' would not have survived.

There are several threads on our forum that document folks making it.  Do a search!  It's good reading.

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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2011, 12:05:16 PM »
I didn't mean to put a dollar value on hobby time, ...

I guess the point I was trying to make was that making powder, except for the challenge of making it, was not an efficient use of hobby time, at least for me.  Don't have enough to do the limited things I like doing as it is.
GG
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Offline ironball

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2011, 12:26:57 PM »
Well, like I said, If I did it, I would only use it for blanks. And I already own a tumbler (ball mill). I'm mostly interested in the historical aspects, that's why I'm building a Coehorn replica instead of a welding tank mortar. Same as why I don't own any modern muzzleloaders. Just not for me.
 
Thanks The Jeff, for that link, that's just the stuff that fascinates me the most.

Cat Whisperer, I will search out the older posts.
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Offline Double D

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2011, 01:46:34 PM »
This topic comes up ever so often.  We have had a couple  fellows here make their own powder.  We have some old post here on the process.  I think either Will Bison or Evil dog did it---search their posts.


Offline keith44

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2011, 06:13:12 PM »

copied from archives of another board[/size]

Does anyone know if it is legal to make your own black powder (in Texas anyway)? Seems like circumspection is the watchword here:
[/size]842. Unlawful acts(a)   It shall be unlawful for any person— (1)   to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in explosive materials without a license issued under this chapter;Except for the purposes of subsections (d), (e), (f), (g), (h), (i), and (j) of section 844 of this title, “explosives” means any chemical compound mixture, or device, the primary or common purpose of which is to function by explosion; the term includes, but is not limited to, dynamite and other high explosives, black powder,... Importation, Manufacture, Distribution and Storage of Explosive Materials (18 U.S.C. Chapter 40) (http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/laws/) (pdf)


Touchy subject I recommend against either making it, or drawing any attention to yourself if you do decide to make some

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Offline superscifi12

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2011, 12:42:45 AM »
"37. When is a manufacturer’s license required? A manufacturer’s license is required by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for sale, distribution, or for their own business use. For example, persons engaged in the business of providing a blasting service using explosives of their own manufacture would be required to have a manufacturer’s license. Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use are not required to have a manufacturer’s license. However, no person may ship, transport, cause to be transported, or receive explosive materials unless such person holds a license or permit. [27 CFR 555.11: definition of “manufacturer”, 555.41(b)] A separate manufacturer’s license is not required by a licensed manufacturer for the purpose of on-site manufacture, for example, mixing binary explosives or making blasting agents at a quarry or other job site. It is not necessary for a licensed manufacturer to also obtain a dealer’s license to engage in business on his or her licensed premises as a dealer in explosive materials (see also Question 52 and 53) [27 CFR 555.11: definition of “manufacturer”, 555.41(b)(2)]"From Page 64 "ATF - Federal Explosives Law and Regulations" http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5400-7.pdf[size=78%]  [/size]

Offline Double D

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2011, 04:09:12 AM »
Gentlemen the two previous post  point out exactly why we do not allow interpretation of the law on this board. 

The first poster implies what he posted indicates it is illegal to make your own black powder.

The Second poster implies that what he posted says you  can make black powder for you own personal use.

If we examine the first post it says engage in the business with out a license.  Gives some exceptions but doesn't say what those exceptions are. It also doesn't cite the speciifc law this is extracted form.

The second post cites some definitions but doesn't  indicate if the definition apply to the section of law quoted in the previous post.


The only correct answer comes from ATF.

Please do not offer legal opinions on this board.


Offline ironball

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2011, 06:00:39 AM »
Quote
Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use are not required to have a manufacturer’s license.
Personally, I'm pretty sure the ATF means exactly what they say here.
 
(Note. I'm not making a legal opinion here. Just reading plain English.)
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2011, 12:26:41 PM »
Remember federal, state AND local laws.

Research them for yourself, draw you own conclusions (for yourself) and get the best legal advise from the authorities themselves.  I have an OPPINION as well, but it wouldn't do you much good in front of a judge.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline superscifi12

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2011, 12:58:58 PM »
Sorry didn't mean to step on anyone's toes but I didn't want anyone scared away from doing this with out having read the ATF rule book fully (which is the link in my previous post) and made their own decision.


Another good reference for the making black powder and the legal side of it is the PGI (Pyrotechnics Guild International). They almost all make their own black powder as they use mostly uncorned powder. (corning is a process where the mill powder is pressed to make a uniform density to enable volumetric measuring)  Plus the amount they use makes most of our amounts used look pitiful.

Offline Will Bison

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2011, 05:41:47 AM »
I have made it and we discussed it on this forum at length several years ago. My interest was in experimental archaeology to determine how viable it would have been during the colonial period to make it. In other words, if one were hard pressed for powder, would it be possible to manufacture quality powder using local resources and period tools? The short answer is yes, it can be done.
I made it for under $2 per pound and it works as well as GOEX. It's time intensive (ball milling, drying) but not labor intensive. Other than the knowledge gained, I generally buy my BP by the full case.
If it were possible to crush it to a consistent grain size it would be well worth the effort.
 

Offline Victor3

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2011, 12:22:29 AM »
"37. When is a manufacturer’s license required? A manufacturer’s license is required by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for sale, distribution, or for their own business use. For example, persons engaged in the business of providing a blasting service using explosives of their own manufacture would be required to have a manufacturer’s license. Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use are not required to have a manufacturer’s license. However, no person may ship, transport, cause to be transported, or receive explosive materials unless such person holds a license or permit. [27 CFR 555.11: definition of “manufacturer”, 555.41(b)] A separate manufacturer’s license is not required by a licensed manufacturer for the purpose of on-site manufacture, for example, mixing binary explosives or making blasting agents at a quarry or other job site. It is not necessary for a licensed manufacturer to also obtain a dealer’s license to engage in business on his or her licensed premises as a dealer in explosive materials (see also Question 52 and 53) [27 CFR 555.11: definition of “manufacturer”, 555.41(b)(2)]"From Page 64 "ATF - Federal Explosives Law and Regulations" http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5400-7.pdf[size=78%]  [/size]

 I have to say something here, specifically concerning what you've put in red because it might indicate to someone reading that it's A-OK to "manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use..." [/size]There's a lot more than just licencing issues detailed in Federal law concerning explosives (especially since 9/11) that can easily get you a long stay at the greybar hotel.[/size]
 
 Also, note what CW said; "federal, state AND local laws." In my state, if I were only to mix two particular chemicals together I could be prosecuted for a felony. There's no reason to mix these two chemicals other than to make an explosive compound. If I were to make an "explosive device" from said compound, that would be another felony. If I were to cause said explosive device to explode, another felony.
 
 That said, in my state, BP designed for and used as a propellant is considered a flammable solid not an "explosive," so it's not heavily regulated. YOUR locality may be totally different and you better make darn sure you know your particular laws.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Rickk

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2011, 06:08:18 AM »
Ironball,

I have made it.

To start with, to be cost effective on must have a cheap source of materials. If you are paying 7-8 bucks a pound after shipping for ingredients just buy Skirmish powder from Powder, Inc and you will be way ahead.

Getting past that, the BP that most pyro hobbiests make is not suitable for cannon use. Granulating and screen to size is a real pita. For an aerial shell, the burst charge is often ungranulated, milled BP powder coated over rice hulls. There is a tremendous amount of exposed surface area per pound when prepared that way. You would not want to use it in a cannon. The peak pressures would be too high.

It also gets used as rocket fuel.  Again, un-granulated milled powder is rammed into a cardboard tube over nozzle tooling to form the rocket motor.

It is possible to granulate powder. The milled powder is dampened slightly an pressed into hockey puck shape in a hydraulic  press. After it is allowed to dry it is broken up into little pieces and screened for size through wire screens.  It's a fair amount of work.

Then there is the "CIA" method, which does not require a ball mill. It is messy and requires alcohol as a solvent, adding to the cost. You can find info on that method all over the net. I tried it a couple times. I did not have much success. A ball mill is really the way to go.

Again, it can be made. A powder mill is a necessity. You can make a mill if you wish, or you can buy a rock tumbler, and tumble the ingredients with lead balls mixed in for several hours.  You can buy the ingredients in most decent sized hardware stores if you know what you are looking for. Home Depot in my area has everything needed in stock, although you would be paying about 6 bucks a pound for materials alone.  A big agricultural supply house might be a cheaper source of KNO3 and S on 50# bags for a good price, although they may not like to sell KNO3 in quantities less than a ton, and they may not carry it at all because it is so flamable.  KNO3 can be sometimes gotten in 50# bags at pottery supply places for about $50. I know a pottery place in the very westernmost part of Massachusetts that carries it and does not ask why you want it.  Charcoal you can actually make yourself if you wish for pretty much free. It is a messy process, and the quality of your charcoal process pretty much determines the quality of your BP.

Work in small amounts - a pound or so at a time, locate your mill someplace where if something goes wrong no one will get hurt. Turn the mill on remotely (a long extention cord).  Keep the mill clean... you don't want a buildup of dust on the machinery.  There are some good books on the subject available from skylighter.com

Rick

Offline ironball

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2011, 06:43:40 AM »
Thanks, Rickk. You describe the procedure the way I understand it to be for home use. Less work would be to push the damp powder through a screen and let it dry. Then seperate those pieces through the proper mesh screens. I don't see the harm in making a pound or two just for fun.
 
I have crushed and screened commercial FFg to get FFFg and FFFFg for my rifles. Worked fine. I have an old lot of Elephant powder that I just screen, no crushing needed. It's that bad!
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2011, 07:16:14 AM »
Sorry didn't mean to step on anyone's toes but I didn't want anyone scared away from doing this with out having read the ATF rule book fully (which is the link in my previous post) and made their own decision.


Another good reference for the making black powder and the legal side of it is the PGI (Pyrotechnics Guild International). They almost all make their own black powder as they use mostly uncorned powder. (corning is a process where the mill powder is pressed to make a uniform density to enable volumetric measuring)  Plus the amount they use makes most of our amounts used look pitiful.


spot on!
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline superscifi12

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2011, 12:31:49 PM »
It is possible to granulate powder. The milled powder is dampened slightly an pressed into hockey puck shape in a hydraulic  press. After it is allowed to dry it is broken up into little pieces and screened for size through wire screens.  It's a fair amount of work.




You actually describe corning which is more useful for us which makes the powder a uniform density. If you don't mind weighing out your charges you can just add dextrin then use some high percentage alcohol and a little water and wet it till it just sticking together (if it is sticky like dough then it is too wet) then just push it through a screen (get a kitchen one it will work).

Offline bluelake

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2011, 09:35:51 PM »
I frequently make it when in the States.  Mostly, I make it for black powder rockets, as commercial bp burns too quickly and makes things blow up instead of fly.  For shooting my bp arms, I generally use commercial powder. 
 
 
 

Offline darkgael

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2011, 11:43:24 PM »
I have made it also. Once. Just to see. I bought quality ingredients - just to see. Got a ball mill. Set it up in a safe place in the woods behind my home, away from the house. Weighed and mixed the ingredients. Milled them for hours. Put the milled "putty" into a press and pressed it for hours. Then I let it set so that it'd be dry. Days.
Then i broke it and screened it.
Then i loaded some and used it.
It wasn't worth the trouble.
I am glad, though, that I gave it a try.
Pete

Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2011, 12:47:51 AM »
  Interesting thread.  I'll mark this so I can go back and follow all the links.

Offline Cannon Cocker

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2012, 01:10:49 PM »
I have an old lot of Elephant powder that I just screen, no crushing needed. It's that bad!

I had 25 pounds of Elephant brand powder.  I had to use it for so long that I had all my guns sighted in and set for appropriate ranges with it.  Therefore, after using up the Elephant and finally getting some Goex, I had to put together the following equivalency formulations to duplicate the power and range I had using the same quantities of Elephant powder. 

.4oz Goex and .6oz Elephant dung = 1oz Elephant
.3oz Goex and .7oz Cap'N' Crunch = 1oz Elephant

Feel free to copy or publish my findings as a courtesy to all those unlucky enough to get a "good deal" on Elephant powder.

 

Offline keith44

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2012, 02:16:25 PM »
Several people have reported Goex being more energetic than Elephant, and seeming much cleaner burning.  Swiss (schutzen) is the best on the market I have found, but kinda pricey compared to Goex.



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Offline rmagill

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2012, 02:33:16 PM »
I still have  Elephant I bought clear back in 2001, it's not impressive. I load about 20% more for the  Elephant than the Goex to get the same distance. I mainly use it in the mortars when we're making noise more than trying to hit anything.
Bob   

Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2012, 09:22:05 AM »
A close friend offered up this competition. 

Take and make approximately five loads of powder.  For our purposes it would have been about an once a load.
Load powder in a mortar and fire the exact weight projectile for distance. 
Shooting order would be alternating between each persons powder and the highest aggregate distance wins. 

Three loads for scoring, one load to be used to qualify powder as safe, and one as a reserve in case of tie.  We have yet to actually compete in this manner but I do find it intriguing. 
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline Kjosefy

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2012, 06:45:05 PM »

Offline michaelfreeland

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Re: Homemade BP?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2012, 11:30:57 AM »
As I professional Pyrotechnician working as an employee of an ATF licensed Explosives  Manufacturer, I have made plenty of BP. That said, it was made for the fireworks business, and is usually, as an earlier poster described, used as "Break" charge. Homemade BP can be equal to or better quality than commercial......right up to the granulation. We use Commercial
2FA for lift charge in aerial shells and comets (one large pellet) that is commercially made, because it's just too hard to get consistant grain size any other way. You CAN buy the machinery to do everything yourself, but, as my friend says, It's like driving to Guatamala. Possible, but nobody does it. My GB cannon LOVES 2FA, and now I can come out of the closet and admit that my Bowling Ball Mortar loves it too.
Hey, speaking of that, isn't it time to start posting pics of them ?