A Cleaning Method for all Cannon Bores including DOM Sleeved or Lined ones.

[GGaskill]

He did say, however that the resulting product is so iffy dimensionally ...

I would have to concur with this assessment based on the piece of 1" wall, 2.75" bore seamless I have.  It is noticeably out of round both inside and out.  But, it is 5 1/2' long (the original piece was 11' long; this is one half of that piece) and I have no way of drilling something like that.  Also, I have noted in manufacturers' descriptions of seamless tubing that they are not guaranteeing exact nominal dimensions.

[Victor3]

I couldn't do this with many, but Victor's mind and mine operate on such a similar wavelength that I feel safe in clarifying things on his behalf.

 True, John. Careful though; you might not want to publicly associate yourself with me lest you get yer name put next to mine on a "NO SOUP FOR YOU!" list. 

[Victor3]

  Victor, don't worry about it, I guess we can consider the Seamless/DOM topic to be associated or related.

 Okay. I have a few question related to your survey (Thank you for taking the time to do it) that the answers to might be helpful for the members here in determining if DOM is for them or not...
 
 

  Well, three out of sixteen ain't bad.  Please remember that Seacoast is not recommending any of the makers, nor are we recommending either Seamless or DOM Mechanical Tubing.  It's up to YOU to determine what you want and how much you are willing to pay for this service.

 In speaking with the makers who use DOM, did any happen to share their reasoning with you concerning its safety as barrel/liner material? If so (without naming names) could you relate any of their thoughts about DOM that might shed some light on why they believe it's a safe material for use in their products?
 
 Also, did they by chance recommend any special cleaning/preservation/inspection procedures for DOM that might be considered over and above what would normally be recommended for other types of steel BP cannon barrel material?
 
 

[little seacoast]

Seacoastartillery, Thank you for taking the  time and trouble to set out a rational cleaning protocol as well as your follow up with manufacturers. This is a valuable service to the membership. Although you can't please everyone it gives all of us a sound basic procedure. Thanks, LS

[Cannoneer]

M&T,

It's Marshall Steen of Steen Cannon and Ordnance Works. For half a second (before I saw the name Marshall Stein) I thought, hey a new cannon maker, I'd better go check it out.

I couldn't do this with many, but Victor's mind and mine operate on such a similar wavelength that I feel safe in clarifying things on his behalf.

 True, John. Careful though; you might not want to publicly associate yourself with me lest you get yer name put next to mine on a "NO SOUP FOR YOU!" list. 

[seacoastartillery]

    Cannoneer       What?  Do you really have the unmitigated gall to correct us on spelling??   The audacity of your assertion  is shocking.    “NO SOUP FOR YOU!”......................................ONLY KIDDING……Thanks John.  Changes have been made.

     LS      We enjoyed sifting through all the suggestions, writing the method and having an excuse to call these cannon makers.  It’s always interesting to hear what others are doing and to hear a variety of opinions.

We really can't get in to what those who use DOM Mechanical Tube say.  They are happy to discuss the choices with their prospective customers.  That is reasonable and should be good enough for anybody.

Tracy and Mike

[Double D]

   Cannoneer, you are spot on with your comment.  Victor, don't worry about it, I guess we can consider the Seamless/DOM topic to be associated or related.   I would not hold your breath until the cleaning procedure makes it to a sticky.  Double D. is still mad at me for something.  However, he and all other lovers of Seamless Tubing should be happy with the results of the last four calls that I made to the GBO Cannon Makers.  They are listed in the order in which I called them.
 
 
 Steen Cannons        I talked with Marshal Steen who says he will sleeve cannon bores down to about 1/2 original size (C.W. Field Arty) with DOM Seamless Extruded Tubing.  I asked him to explain that description.  He said that this is true Seamless Tubing without any welding.  It is special order tubing in that the  'Drawn Over Mandrel'  process is applied to it to straighten out all the incongruities of it's as produced, dimensional makeup.  He said for a 1.5" bore size the sleeve thickness would be .25".  Email him with all the dimensions of your tube you want sleeved and with the Sleeve Bore Dia. you want for a quote.
 
Historical Ordnance Works       I talked with Thomas Bailey who Mike and I met in Mansfield, Ohio at the 2006 Artillery Show.  I remember well his kind comments about our 100 Pdr. Parrott Rifle.  Anyway, he was extremely busy, but said his company could sleeve almost any cannon bore with whatever type of sleeve the customer wanted.  Email your tube dimensions and what material you want for a sleeve and the sleeve I.D. for a quote.
 
 
Clover Machine       I spoke to David and, interestingly enough, he makes the "Probing Points" for manufacturers in the Seamless Tubing Industry.  He says they are not made from any exotic material, just regular steel.  He described the process as basically spearing a very hot round of low carbon steel which is in the 'plastic state'.  A hole results and then a variety of heavy rolls form the tube from the outside.  It is repeatedly pierced, rolled and extruded until it is formed into a tube.  He did say, however that the resulting product is so iffy dimensionally that he would much rather drill a low carbon round to a reasonable depth, and use That as the liner rather than use seamless tubing as it is produced.  Call him with your requirements for a quote.
 
      Well, three out of sixteen ain't bad.  Please remember that Seacoast is not recommending any of the makers, nor are we recommending either Seamless or DOM Mechanical Tubing.  It's up to YOU to determine what you want and how much you are willing to pay for this service.
 
 Mike and I did this survey as a service to the membership at GBO Mortar and Cannon and expect absolutely nothing in return.
 
 Tracy and Mike
 
 
 
 
 
 

...and what did the AAA and N-SSA say their reason for requiring seamless liners is?   

Since it is their guidelines I encourage everyone to look to for guidance in building a safe cannon  it might be nice hear from them.  Seems to me going to the source would have been a better course action to take to get answer to this issue.

[Cat Whisperer]

Hmmmm.

I don't know how the decisions of AAA or N-SSA regarding liners were made. 

The fact that they have been USING them SUCCESSFULLY for YEARS with MANY folks and LOTS OF events says something that is worth trusting.

The alternative is to re-engineer the cannons.  I know enough about engineering that I'd want a qualified metalurgist and/or mechanical engineer to make the critical decisions about materials and designs.  That includes porosity and the knowledge of certified welders.

The charts and tables and data sheets will give you numbers.  Any fool can quote them.  It is the EXPERIENCE of those that are qualified that I trust.

We KNOW the general principles and rules of thumb that work. 

[Cat Whisperer]

Let me add that publication of knowledge gained from direct experimentation, when carefully done and well documented, is priceless.  Hence the value seen of Matt Switlick's volume.

[dominick]

It seems that there's a belief by many that all welds have porosity.  Since the time I was in welding school in the early 70's and through my welding career, I learned that a good quality weld does not have porosity, micro or otherwise.  If any welds have porosity, it is a bad weld.  A good weld is as uniform in grain structure as the surrounding base metal.   Dom

[Cat Whisperer]

It seems that there's a belief by many that all welds have porosity.  Since the time I was in welding school in the early 70's and through my welding career, I learned that a good quality weld does not have porosity, micro or otherwise.  If any welds have porosity, it is a bad weld.  A good weld is as uniform in grain structure as the surrounding base metal.   Dom

AHAH!

Good point.

What then are the factors that a) cause porosity and b) prevent porosity?

And the followup question: how does one ensure that porosity does not occur in the welds planned for cannon "A".

Another followup question:  How does one test for porosity in an existing cannon?

[Victor3]

It seems that there's a belief by many that all welds have porosity.

 They do, to some extent.
 
 It's impossible to remove all contaminants from the weld area that when heated, create gas bubbles in molten metal. Contamination can come from gunk on the surface of the steel, foreign matter in shielding gas, flux, slag, even inclusions in the base/filler material themselves. One can only hope to reduce contamination (and thus porosity in the weld) to an acceptable level for the application. 
 
 

Since the time I was in welding school in the early 70's and through my welding career, I learned that a good quality weld does not have porosity, micro or otherwise. If any welds have porosity, it is a bad weld.

 
 We would have to define "a good (and bad) quality weld" for our purposes. It will be different than when I worked for a company that sealed radioactive source housings via electron beam welding in a vacuum chamber. Even those were sometimes rejected due to voids/inclusions detected with ultrasonic inspection.
 

A good weld is as uniform in grain structure as the surrounding base metal.

 While I don't agree the above can be used as a blanket statement covering all types of welds, I believe it does apply to most common DOM tubing. DOM is resistance-welded (no filler material), and in the low carbon varieties the weld is going to have the same grain structure (and tensile strength) as anywhere else on the tube. I believe an exception might be for one of the alloy varieties (4130 aircraft structural tubing being the most common) that has not been normalized.
 
 As M&T noted in their original post, DOM tubing goes through multiple inspections to ensure the integrity of the entire tube, with emphasis on the welded joint since it's the probable weak link in its manufacture.
 
 I personally believe, based on its attributes and uniform QA that makes it a commodity today, that DOM tubing should be considered to be seamless for the purpose of cannon barrel/liner construction.
 
 If anyone can dispute that, please do so (with something more than anecdotal info).

[Victor3]

It's Marshall Steen of Steen Cannon and Ordnance Works. For half a second (before I saw the name Marshall Stein) I thought, hey a new cannon maker, I'd better go check it out.

 You know nothing of Herr Stein, Herr John? Vis all zeez fancy cupro-cannons, yet? Finally I get ein schadenfreude on you, ya?
 

 
 And boy does this thing have some porosity. Some of it shows in the pic. Thank goodness it's bronze, not iron.

[ironball]

A great big thanks to seacoastartillery for your honest and well though out posts, from one of the "average people."

[seacoastartillery]

      It has come to my attention that more than a few of you are laboring under a HUGE MISCONCEPTION regarding our Survey Post, which had the purpose, (the ONLY purpose) of letting everyone who was thinking about getting their tube sleeved with Seamless steel tubing know who was doing this work or willing to do it.  Silly me, I thought that this would be seen as being fair and friendly to those wanting this type of tubing now mandated by several cannon shooting competition organizations.

     What I did not realize was that a good percentage of you ASSUMED that the rest of the cannon makers on the GBO Mortar and Cannon List of vendors were boring out cast iron tubes and inserting D.O.M. Mechanical Tubes as sleeves.  This is NOT true.  This IS the HUGE MISCONCEPTION.

     The facts are these: 92.3% of those 13 makers left after you subtract the 3 that insert seamless tube from the 16 that we called, DO NOT Insert Any Type of Tube, they drill their tubes from solid steel similar to how we at Seacoast do them.

Tracy and Mike

P.S. Austin, we love your cannons; keep up the good work! 





     

[Double D]

Sorry Tracy, since the subject was the pro-cons of welded  seam tubing,  the concept you implied was that all but 4 of  makers of cannons on the list did not use Seamless because they did not see a need for it.

That may not have been your intent, but that is how your post came across. Your further explanation of your intent does nothing to mitigate that concept.  You still leave the impression that most of those makers do not endorse the use seamless as it's not needed.

There was no discussion in this thread about who did or did not provide the service and install liners of one type or another..

How many of those cannon makers were even aware of the AAA/N-SSA guildines?

Did you contact N-SSA and AAA and attempt to find out why they have  this rule?  They are the  source of the discussion, it would seem logical to go to the  source.

Are their rules- AAA/N-SSA, based on old science and not in keeping up dated  on modern materials? 

I think not, as AAA has only on the past 2 or 3 years or so updated their publicly posted rules to specifically identify the minimum standard for seamless they  will accept.




 

[jamesfrom180]

M&T
I first want to thank you as I will slightly amend my procedures to follow yours.  I was using hot-close to boiling water, I will now use warm. 

This is more of a suggestion than anything else but I believe in step 4 correct application of water displacing oil should be stated.  Spraying said oil, will in humid climates, promote corrosion as it may trap a fine layer of water under the oil itself.